Metacognition On Custom Move Set Selection

[Maple42]

With all the hubbub on custom moves, I thought now would be an excellent time to address our process of selecting the combinations we deem worthy of our elusive 10 spots.

When we look at custom moves, we first look for upgrades; what is better than the original? An example of this is Robin; the first set is 2111, with Thunder+ being the top choice. While I do believe Thunder+ is better than both Thunder and Speed Thunder, therefore making it the best choice, I do not think it is the correct choice.

Wait, what?

What may be the best move may not be the correct move for that character. Thunder+ provides boosts to all of Thunder’s attributes, requiring a measly increase in loading time. It lends all variants of the Thunder tomes extra damage, and renders Thoron a great killing move. However, perhaps it is not necessary for Robin to achieve this, despite the obvious improvements.

Obviously, Robin is a zoner; at first, one might think that a zoner’s goal is to inflict damage via projectiles. As such, Thunder+ would most definitely be the most correct choice for Robin. I suggest that the entire notion of zoners doing damage via projectiles is incorrect; I hold that projectiles are only tools to make your opponent predictable. Your goal as the zoner is to make your opponent only have one possible move left, and to punish that move as hard as possible.

Why do I bring this up? If our definition of the role of a character is incorrect, and we decide which customs to use on those false notions, then we are not using that character to their full potential.

If we are using Robin’s projectiles to actually damage the opponent rather than trying to force them into a checkmate (haha) position, then Thunder+ is the correct decision. If I am correct in thinking that we are not using Thunder or its variations to do damage, then Speed Thunder or Thunder is correct. My argument may be faulty on the use of Thunder+, but my point still stands: as a community looking to optimize a character, we look only at the “best” variation of a move, without regard to the role of the character. We should look for the “correct” choice instead, the one at which lends itself to furthering that character’s goal.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

If your definition of zoner were the correct one, zoning characters would be absolute bottom of the barrel. While there isnt much risk involved, there is very little reward in punishing if your opponent has low damage.

Increasing the opponents damage is one of the core concepts of smash. There is no point to using Thunder over Thunder+ if Thunder+ zones just as effectively as Thunder while punishing harder than it too.

 

[Maple42]

The Robin-zoner thought process could indeed be entirely incorect, but that was just an example; my point was that we may not be looking at Customs like I propose we should be, that being, the 'correct' one for the character's most optimized purpose, rather than simply being the 'best' move.

 

[Pyr]

The Robin-zoner thought process could indeed be entirely incorect, but that was just an example; my point was that we may not be looking at Customs like I propose we should be, that being, the 'correct' one for the character's most optimized purpose, rather than simply being the 'best' move.

Isn't that what we're doing with having 8 different sets for each character?

 

[Raijinken]

I pick by what augments my playstyle, more than what augments the character's style.

As a Robin player, to go with your example, I value Thunder for being harassment and, with Thoron, a pretty okay kill move if it lands. I do not value default Thunder for its durability, because in this meta of rushy characters, I'm as unlikely to get a recharge draught as I am to have time to burn through the full tome to begin with. Thus, bar a handful of matchups where I might need the quicker casting offered by Speed Thunder, I will always run Thunder+ because its upsides fit my playstyle, and its drawbacks are irrelevant to me. Cover Thunder downtime with the Levin Sword, Sword downtime with Arcfire, Arcfire with Thunder.

The point of the picks in the project is to reflect the most common results of reasoning, no matter what that reasoning is. If "every" DK player says they'd run Kong Cyclone despite its drawbacks and the fact that it is very clearly not a straight upgrade, it still deserves to be in almost every moveset (until people start spreading good reasoning why default or Chopper should be in other sets). Luma Warp has drawbacks, but its benefits are great enough that the drawbacks are irrelevant to most Rosalina players.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have things like Easy Counter on Marth and Lucina. They technically carry benefits - larger timing windows, namely, but their benefit is so exceedingly irrelevant to general skilled play (where counters are rare to begin with) on top of being tied to an even weaker payoff when successful, that no one who has any reason to be competing on one of those characters would have reason to run one of those moves.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

The Robin-zoner thought process could indeed be entirely incorect, but that was just an example; my point was that we may not be looking at Customs like I propose we should be, that being, the 'correct' one for the character's most optimized purpose, rather than simply being the 'best' move.

If a custom carries no drawbacks, then it is "correct". I would say that in general, drawbacks include encouraging a playstyle that a character does not excel at, or that a character is not as effective with as they are with another playstyle.

For example, say Character A is a character that relies heavily on projectile play to win. Then lets say Character A has custom B, which has some differences to custom A (the standard), but still encourages projectile-based play, and custom C, which encourages rushdown play. Lets further say that Character A has no other customs with which to support a rushdown playstyle, or at the very least lacks the physics to be good at it.

Players of Character A generally support the use of custom B over custom A. It is safe to assume that players of character A are playing and are constantly trying to play Character A at the highest possible calibre. This would mean using customs that support the playstyle Character A is best suited to, and not using customs that do not further this purpose. If they wanted to use custom C, they'd probably be better off playing a character B who is better built for rushdown.

So what I'm trying to say (probably not eloquently at all) is that players who want to win with a character are going to use customs which fits a character's "role", which in turn is more likely to increase their chances of winning. People who want to win are not going to use a custom that is at odds with a character's fundamentals.

 

[Raijinken]

If a custom carries no drawbacks, then it is "correct". I would say that in general, drawbacks include encouraging a playstyle that a character does not excel at, or that a character is not as effective with as they are with another playstyle.

For example, say Character A is a character that relies heavily on projectile play to win. Then lets say Character A has custom B, which has some differences to custom A (the standard), but still encourages projectile-based play, and custom C, which encourages rushdown play. Lets further say that Character A has no other customs with which to support a rushdown playstyle, or at the very least lacks the physics to be good at it.

Players of Character A generally support the use of custom B over custom A. It is safe to assume that players of character A are playing and are constantly trying to play Character A at the highest possible calibre. This would mean using customs that support the playstyle Character A is best suited to, and not using customs that do not further this purpose. If they wanted to use custom C, they'd probably be better off playing a character B who is better built for rushdown.

So what I'm trying to say (probably not eloquently at all) is that players who want to win with a character are going to use customs which fits a character's "role", which in turn is more likely to increase their chances of winning. People who want to win are not going to use a custom that is at odds with a character's fundamentals.

There are, of course, exceptions. Palutena benefits greatly from Lightweight and Superspeed, which entirely alter her playstyle. In very niche cases, Samus may benefit from Melee Charge Shot, since it can be neither reflected nor absorbed and her projectile game stays strong with her missiles. But in most games designed around a variety of characters, it's almost always best to play to and augment a character's strengths rather than shore up weaknesses.

 

[Pepperz]

I understand the logistics of why we have to create this list for mass tournaments but this really is just a case of the community forcing the meta vs. letting the meta occur naturally. The list will trickle down to locals. There will be a few exceptions being that time is not as pressed as it would be at a national. To allow these odd ball builds. Shout outs to my local savior, Bryan.

We take out customs, you can still see a difference in players when playing the same characters. There are a possible 80 other combinations per character, not including default. We are limiting ourselves to 1/8 the possibilities combinations. Somebody is going to get the short end of the stick. Majority of the people in the villager forum raving about the greatness off extreme balloon trip. While great in it's own right, I haven't seen any amount of evidence in tournament results or videos to propose that. But yet it takes up majority of the spots. I was at a tournament recently, were I played a build that wasn't on the standard list and played/placed really well. Played and beat some of the best in my state. If it were to be a evo, I would have been screwed. I wouldn't had the chance to play my character to his potential.

If narrowing the list of combinations to 12.5% is the best option, I'll be down for it as long as my build get in. Haha. Or we need to find a better way to run tournaments were everybody can play they're style of choice. Which is just a logistics issue.

 

[Maple42]

Isn't that what we're doing with having 8 different sets for each character?

Oh, yes, I'm simply saying that I think we are somewhat incorrect in the way we chose them.

So what I'm trying to say (probably not eloquently at all) is that players who want to win with a character are going to use customs which fits a character's "role", which in turn is more likely to increase their chances of winning. People who want to win are not going to use a custom that is at odds with a character's fundamentals.

I'm also arguing this. I don't mean to be rude, but I'm not entirely sure if we're arguing different points .o.