Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion 14 | Pikachu

[Katakiri]

Welcome to our Pikachu match-up discussion!

"Pika Pi-ka~!"

Discuss character strengths, weaknesses, ground-game, air-game, and all things Mice vs Bats here.​

Got questions, opinions, or suggestions you want to share about other characters? Head over to the Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion Directory Thread or the Meta Knight Social/General Discussion; we're more than happy to help you.​

Rules, guidelines, and tips:

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.03 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

Frame Data to expand your mind!:​

|Hit Frames|Hit Frames
Jab | 6,

, 30 | 2-3
Dash Attack | 7-11 | 6-9, 10-16
F-Tilt | 6, 12, 17 | 6-8
U-Tilt | 8-10, 8-14, 11-14 | 7-13
D-Tilt | 3-4 | 7-8
Side Smash | 24 | 15-17, 18-20, 21-22
Up Smash | 8, 12, 17 | 10-11, 12-13, 14-17
Down Smash | 4, 9 | 8-9. 11-12, 14-15, 17-18, 20-21, 23
N-Air | 6-7, 8-20 | 3-5, 6-20
F-Air | 9, 12, 15 | 10-12, 14-16, 18-20, 22-24, 26
B-Air | 7-8, 13-14, 20-21 | 4-5, 8-9, 12-13, 16-17, 20-21, 24-25, 28-29, 32-33
U-Air | 6 | 4-6, 7-8
D-Air | 4 | 14-26, 1-2 (Landing)
Grab | 7-8 | 6-7
Dash Grab | 9-10 | 8-9
Pivot Grab | 9-10 | 9-10

 

[warionumbah2]

Jab | 6,

, 30 ]

I'm sorry but i just had to quote this.

 

[NeiKo]

PROS

-Good recovery
-Reliable Kill Options
-Powerful Grabs Combos (Not as good as Luigi tho)

CONS
-Not the best Neutral
-Bad range
-Lightweight

PROS

-Really good recovery
-Able to punish fast
-Really good combos
-Nice neutral

CONS
-Lightweight
-Problems Killing

fought a player with It went pretty even in a stage like Battlefield pika cant do a lot of quick attack because of Shuttle Loop. When the match started obviously he started to do thunder shocks I jumped though them and dair camp a little bit because Pika U-Smash if the sour spot doesn't hit and the hit the back part of it they can follow it up with a bair I'm not sure if its a true combo but it combo ed me a lot lmao. But in stage like halberd they get a bit more free with the quick attacks i know is a good stage for us but in a moment the Pika player got 1 stock lite and started quick attacking a lot but i was able to catch them with F-smash. I dunno is everyone knows but the our F-Smash does clank with the thunder shocks is pretty good but don't repeat it to much they can easily bait it and punish but if we are in a platform is better. I wouldn't necessary go outstage to gimp them because quick attack is way to fast so i prefer to not take the risk. What I would like to do in this MU is do a little bit of dair and not let them grab me because that would mean BIG damage for Pika, D-Tilt is out fastest move on the ground so use it a lot cuz it can lad u to a grab or a dash attack to Shuttle Loop. When we get to the neutral againt pika just try to not get hit by much thunder shocks cuz they can easily run to grab us and we don't want that so be pretty careful and as always do not be predictable. I don't feel that this match is bad for MK and neither for Pika I would consider it a 50:50 , If some of u know something im missing plz tell me but right now this what I say of this MU this all is frm my knowledge in the MU

 

[AmishTechnology]

Pikachu is one of the quickiest to die to shuttle loop. You will need it, because Pikachu is ungimpable. When you get past that perfect 90% sweetspot where you can get guaranteed dash attack -> shuttle loop, it can get awkward to fish for kills (Marth Syndrome). U-Smash kills somewhat early, but the hitboxes are very high and miss Pikachu a lot... be very careful about this. Ftilt is a late kill move now, don't forget about it when you're desperate (it is a lot safer than many of our other reasonable KO options).

Pikachu's nair is an insanely fast OoS option, be mindful of that.

MK's dash attack cancels out thunder jolt, but it does have barely enough lag for Pikachu to punish if he's in range and anticipates that. So, perfect shield those (be mindful, you can't shield during the initial dash/foxtrot whereas you can shield anytime while walking). Thunder jolt camp into approach mix ups with and without quick attack is something you will have to learn to deal with. If Pika ends up QA'ing behind you or facing away, expect those OoS nairs and bairs and such. Absolutely master your OoS shuttle loop and OoS reverse shuttle loop, that is a difficult but 100% necessity in any matchup and sometimes the only move fast enough to punish something (e.g. quick attack landing behind you, shielded peach side B, etc.)

I feel like there's almost never a good time to use Mach Tornado sans huge screw ups from Pikachu. Not sure if early percent tornado combos work here, maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't work as well as a YOLO option, Pikachu is just far too mobile to be "trapped" by this like most characters imo. Pika fair and QA just seem to flinch tornado rather effortlessly too.

 

[warionumbah2]

QA loses to Tornado. Ftilt is not a reliable kill move, it kills hella late and its honestly not safe. F-smash is better,safer and great for microspacing.

Had this saved for awhile now
In the pika MU you wanna get into the mindset similar to Sheik where despite how many hits they land you shouldn't feel pressured or at a disadvantage. I've been hit by Pikachu's forward throw --> jab lock --> charged f-smash and ended up at 42%. All it took was a 18% nado and then DA --> Uair x3 --> Shuttle Loop. To beat Pikachu in the percent war. Despite his weight and size he's pretty easy to combo.

Example: Down throw --> DA --> Uair --> FAST FALL UAIR x4 REQUIRED --> Shuttle loop = 0-50%.

Easy version: Down throw --> DA --> Uair --> Nair = 28%

Down throw --> DA --> FH Uair --> FAST FALL THEN JUMP QUICKLY INTO FAIR --> Shuttle loop= 36%(recommended since its not hard at all and very rewarding).

Baby mode: Down throw --> DA --> Shuttle launch = 25%

You want to avoid attempting to land ontop of Pikachu or beside him for TH or nado, he can simply spam Utilt and combo into an aerial or go for Utilt strings. You want to stay outside QA 1's range in neutral and go in the air sometimes depending on the situation but fast fall asap since you want to stay grounded in general.

9/10 both chars won't take stocks via edgeguards, Pika's only safe option to edgeguard is thunder but we can easily cape past it. Edgeguarding is Pikachu's main kill option, non of his aerials has the range to beat our Drill rush. However if we recover low he can spam Tjolts to catch us on our way up and put us in an uncomfortable situation. I recommend recovering horizontally or use cape to recover, its much more useful and stage with platforms such as SV,TnC,BF ect.

Note: I'm not aware of his kill setups other than Down/Up throw into thunder which isn't always guaranteed. Help?

Stage wise its odd, if you face a Pika that can't utilize QA it doesn't matter what stage you pick, but you wanna ban Lylat or DL against Pikachu due to his QA cancel shennanigans and SV too because of his silly Fair strings using the platform. I feel its an even MU, i'll add more later...maybe.

Edit: Back throw into DA true combo's at low percents, but you don't want to do it from a stand still. When MK dash grabs and back throws instantly he still slides towards the direction he was dashing, this makes it so the final hit of DA hitbox connects setting up a FH Uair perfectly. Fast fall for the second Uair and continue on for a 52% combo.

Edit: Neutral game: you want to stay outside QA1 range so walking is advised, walking aids F-smash microspacing and its very reliable at punishing QA. Its also good to do at mid range to punish pikas dash grab, once you're at QA1and dancing around that the pika main will notice this and spam tjolts. All you have to do is jump over them with an odd power shield to bait the pika player, you must mix it up to bait pika into going in. If pika is running at you when your in the air after he throws a tjolt either fast fall or DC away. MK can ignore tjolts completely, we all know how to play MKs mid range game so there's no need to go over that.

-Bad range

F-Smash has more range than Rapid Jab,Ftilt 1 and 2 actually. So its basically our 3rd best sword base move on the ground, the range on F-Smash is good enough to space Pikachu out. And if it clanks with Pikas normals that's a free DA for us due to stun.

 

[Catana]

QA loses to Tornado.

I played a Pikachu before and tried this, but it always traded for me. It did easily beat tjolts, however.

 

[NeiKo]

QA loses to Tornado. Ftilt is not a reliable kill move, it kills hella late and its honestly not safe. F-smash is better,safer and great for microspacing.

Had this saved for awhile now
In the pika MU you wanna get into the mindset similar to Sheik where despite how many hits they land you shouldn't feel pressured or at a disadvantage. I've been hit by Pikachu's forward throw --> jab lock --> charged f-smash and ended up at 42%. All it took was a 18% nado and then DA --> Uair x3 --> Shuttle Loop. To beat Pikachu in the percent war. Despite his weight and size he's pretty easy to combo.

Example: Down throw --> DA --> Uair --> FAST FALL UAIR x4 REQUIRED --> Shuttle loop = 0-50%.

Easy version: Down throw --> DA --> Uair --> Nair = 28%

Down throw --> DA --> FH Uair --> FAST FALL THEN JUMP QUICKLY INTO FAIR --> Shuttle loop= 36%(recommended since its not hard at all and very rewarding).

Baby mode: Down throw --> DA --> Shuttle launch = 25%

You want to avoid attempting to land ontop of Pikachu or beside him for TH or nado, he can simply spam Utilt and combo into an aerial or go for Utilt strings. You want to stay outside QA 1's range in neutral and go in the air sometimes depending on the situation but fast fall asap since you want to stay grounded in general.

9/10 both chars won't take stocks via edgeguards, Pika's only safe option to edgeguard is thunder but we can easily cape past it. Edgeguarding is Pikachu's main kill option, non of his aerials has the range to beat our Drill rush. However if we recover low he can spam Tjolts to catch us on our way up and put us in an uncomfortable situation. I recommend recovering horizontally or use cape to recover, its much more useful and stage with platforms such as SV,TnC,BF ect.

Note: I'm not aware of his kill setups other than Down/Up throw into thunder which isn't always guaranteed. Help?

Stage wise its odd, if you face a Pika that can't utilize QA it doesn't matter what stage you pick, but you wanna ban Lylat or DL against Pikachu due to his QA cancel shennanigans and SV too because of his silly Fair strings using the platform. I feel its an even MU, i'll add more later...maybe.

Edit: Back throw into DA true combo's at low percents, but you don't want to do it from a stand still. When MK dash grabs and back throws instantly he still slides towards the direction he was dashing, this makes it so the final hit of DA hitbox connects setting up a FH Uair perfectly. Fast fall for the second Uair and continue on for a 52% combo.

Edit: Neutral game: you want to stay outside QA1 range so walking is advised, walking aids F-smash microspacing and its very reliable at punishing QA. Its also good to do at mid range to punish pikas dash grab, once you're at QA1and dancing around that the pika main will notice this and spam tjolts. All you have to do is jump over them with an odd power shield to bait the pika player, you must mix it up to bait pika into going in. If pika is running at you when your in the air after he throws a tjolt either fast fall or DC away. MK can ignore tjolts completely, we all know how to play MKs mid range game so there's no need to go over that.



F-Smash has more range than Rapid Jab,Ftilt 1 and 2 actually. So its basically our 3rd best sword base move on the ground, the range on F-Smash is good enough to space Pikachu out. And if it clanks with Pikas normals that's a free DA for us due to stun.

Yeh but one move with decent range doesn't mean we already have the best range in the game

 

[warionumbah2]

Hello? I said that his range is good enough to space pikachu out, this isn't the marth, ike, shulk mu where we don't challenge their large disjoints. Have you ever attempted to microspace pikachu with f smash?

Range isn't something thats holding him back in this mu.

 

[NeiKo]

If u say so then I'm wrong on that xD

 

[NextPain]

The matchup is 50:50 in my opinion but with Meta Knight on high percentage is extremely risky because he doesn't have any "guaranteed" kill set up, it maybe harder to land a up b because of his smaller hit box let alone sweet spot it

 

[warionumbah2]

The matchup is 50:50 in my opinion but with Meta Knight on high percentage is extremely risky because he doesn't have any "guaranteed" kill set up, it maybe harder to land a up b because of his smaller hit box let alone sweet spot it

Ftilt1 into shuttle loop....

 

[LostinpinK]

The one thing to note is that tornado is almost unusable against pika. If he doesn't beat it, he'll just duck under it. Nerver use nado as a ledgetrap.

Other than that, the MU is quite fair. Be wary of his insane grabs (you can't camp with your shield). The neutral is pretty hard and he can slip through our combos easily, but so does MK.

 

[Thor]

Pika main coming in here. This MU seems infuriating but I can't see it being much worse than 50-50 unless the MK main I play is just bad at the death combo on Pikachu specifically [and he death combos a lot of people, including some of the other characters I have quite reliably... but he can't seem to quite kill Pikachu with uairs -> shuttle loop except on Town and City].

Pikachu can edgeguard MK with a few tools, but it's tricky at best. [Fastfall (optional)] bair can often interrupt an up+B and drag MK back downwards... if he misses a tech it's usually a stock, but if you get sent away, Pikachu can try to QA back to ledge and immediately drop bair again, and usually will fastfall that one late to suck MK down, which can gimp him if neither bair relied on the two-frame window. Pikachu's dair also lasts an amazing 13 frames and has only a sweetspot, and it seems to have a solid disjoint [it's traded with Cloud's uair and one Sheik main claimed Pika dair beats or trades with Sheik uair], making it somewhat safe to either attempt a snapback [the two-frame ledgesnap punish] or just stop the shuttle loop cold. Pikachu has to rely on thunder jolts or thunder [or maybe a godlike dair] to stop drill rush once it gets going, but it's often somewhat obvious to fire a jolt when MK is in that position, or contest the startup before he even starts moving.

On the other side of edgeguarding, MK can attempt a bair edgeguard on Pikachu's QA, and while there's always a basic 50-50 with aiming at Pikachu's recovery [do I go up and in or in and up?], it's strong enough to kill rather early. That said, if you whiff [or worse yet, fastfall to try to cover both options and whiff], that leaves you in a position where bair and dair become effective at hitting MK, if not gimping him. Nair is alright at stuffing Pikachu, especially near the ledge, but Pikachu will often be in a position to simply aim for onstage OR the ledge, and that's what makes stopping him so tricky, when he can often fastfall and then go straight to ledge if you actively attack where he is. However, if you catch him once and he has no jump left, it gets easier [but still hard].

That said, onstage seems annoying for both characters - we both have very safe moves [MK's dash attack is really really safe, but Pikachu's dtilt is not punishable on block unless you can shieldgrab it [up+b is too slow], and it can definitely be spaced to avoid that] and high movement speed, while Pikachu's Quick Attack can be used almost whenever to retreat, attack, or regain stage position after a trade. Although I have to test it, I think it's possible to SH dair over MK's fsmash and hit him [you can start the SH outside of fsmash range, be out of range vertically as you move toward him, and hit him before his fsmash can hit you], but I can't confirm that at the moment [I just know it's seemed to happen before]. If that's the case, Pikachu may have a somewhat reliable punish to fsmash [besides just throwing thunder jolt and forcing you to fsmash the jolt, or get hit by it if it was aimed at MK's head and you're slow to release it]. Pikachu's fsmash should outrange MK's, so if you see a Pika start charging fsmash, yours won't reach to punish - either jump over it or wait to dash in after it ends [it has lowish endlag, but it's nowhere near as fast as MK's dash attack or fsmash].

Pika's only kill confirm I know of that truly works is landing fair -> usmash when Pikachu has high rage [it should true combo based on weight and some other stuff I believe - K Prime made a mini-guide on it at some point], while MK has a lot of kill options, but Pikachu is safe enough to where they are probably hard to land, and I'm not sure how effective shuttle loop stuff is on Pikachu [as I mentioned before, an MK I know proficient at taking stocks with MK very quickly can't seem to death combo Pikachu very well if at all... it's almost like Pikachu becomes a super heavyweight in the MU or something, but without the drawbacks associated with very high weight]. Pikachu is still quite light though, so any fsmashes MK lands will send quite a way, and as fast as Pikachu is, that move is still very hard to punish at all, never mind with a KO move [unless you just fsmash the wrong way].

It would seem about 50:50 to me - Pika isn't that easy to hit and can frustrate MK in neutral sometimes, but MK has some fierce combos and more KO options/setups that are safe(r).

Edit: Dropping back in to note that the death combo can work, but apparently the percent window for starting it is pretty tight. I don'the know what that window is, but it'seems part of why Pikachu seemed so hard to death combo - it's supposedly a small range to start the combo.