Matchup Chart Project 2015 - Calling Robin Mains!

[Zareidriel]

Hello Robin boards,

I'm Zareidriel. Over in this thread a guy called Assassannerr made a matchup chart, and asked people to help fill it out. It seems like it would be a cool thing to have. With once glance you could have a rough idea of a matchup. It won't be perfect, but for our first go at it in 2015 we're aiming for "somewhat functional."

So here's what I'm going to do. Go to every Character Discussion board, and ask the folks there if they wouldn't mind contributing. To submit one vote, you'll have to fill out one of these:

////////////******
Bowser
Bowser Jr
Captain Falcon
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Duck Hunt
Falco
Fox
Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Greninja
Ike
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Kirby
Link
Little Mac
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
Dr. Mario
Marth
Lucina
Metaknight
Ness
Olimar
Palutena
Pikachu
Pit & Dark Pit
Peach
Zelda
R.O.B.
Robin
Rosalina
Samus
Sheik
Shulk
Toon Link
Villager
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Yoshi
Zero Suit Samus
Megaman
Pacman
Sonic
Ryu
Roy
Mewtwo
Lucas
Brawler
Swordfighter
Gunner
******//////////


Mark each character with a + for a match where Robin HAS THE ADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a - for a match where Robin HAS THE DISADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a number 0 for a match you feel is very even.

NOTE THAT I AM ONLY TAKING VOTES FROM MEMBERS WITH Robin IN THEIR PROFILE BAR. It can be as either "Wii U Main" or "3DS Main". But if Robin is in neither one of those slots when I count the votes on Friday, Nov 13, it won't be counted.

(Yes, for the avid democrats out there, that means you can vote for one other character as well.)

Like I said, they won't be perfect, and each board will probably be a little biased toward their own respective character. But the results should be interesting regardless.

If this thing is successful maybe we'll do a revised version in 2016.

Thanks very much for participating! We need as many votes as possible for each character so please submit a ballot!

 

[Nah]

Here ya go:

Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt
Falco 0
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike 0
Jigglypuff
King Dedede +
Kirby -
Link -
Little Mac -
Lucario
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth 0
Lucina +
Metaknight -
Ness -
Olimar
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach
Zelda 0
R.O.B. -
Robin
Rosalina
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link -
Villager
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman -
Pacman
Sonic -
Ryu +
Roy +
Mewtwo 0
Lucas
Brawler -
Swordfighter
Gunner

Some are intentionally left blank since I'm not sure about them, and there's a few I may or may not want to change. But we have about a week so I have a little time to think about it and stuff.

 

[a.vader]

Dath's and Raziek's should count double (?)

Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon 0
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt -
Falco 0
Fox 0
Mr. Game & Watch +
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike +
Jigglypuff 0
King Dedede +
Kirby 0
Link 0
Little Mac 0
Lucario 0
Luigi -
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight -
Ness -
Olimar -
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach -
Zelda 0
R.O.B. 0
Robin
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link -
Villager -
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman +
Sonic -
Ryu +
Roy +
Mewtwo 0
Lucas 0
Brawler -
Swordfighter +
Gunner +

 

[Kodachi]

////////////******
Bowser+
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon +
Charizard +
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf+
Greninja -
Ike +
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby -
Link
Little Mac +
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
Dr. Mario
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight ?
Ness
Olimar +
Palutena
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit
Peach
Zelda
R.O.B.-
Robin
Rosalina -
Samus
Sheik
Shulk
Toon Link -
Villager -
Wario +
Wii Fit Trainer
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus
Megaman -
Pacman
Sonic
Ryu
Roy
Mewtwo -
Lucas -
Brawler ?
Swordfighter ?
Gunner?
******//////////

 

[Zareidriel]

Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon +
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt -
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch -
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike +
Jigglypuff 0
King Dedede +
Kirby 0
Link +
Little Mac +
Lucario 0
Luigi +
Mario -
Dr. Mario -
Marth 0
Lucina 0
Metaknight -
Ness -
Olimar -
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach +
Zelda +
R.O.B. +
Rosalina -
Samus -
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link
Villager -
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer +
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus 0
Megaman +
Pacman +
Sonic 0
Ryu +
Roy +
Mewtwo +
Lucas -
Brawler 0
Swordfighter 0
Gunner 0

 

[Janno]

Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon +
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt -
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch -
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike +
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede 0
Kirby 0
Link +
Little Mac +
Lucario 0
Luigi +
Mario -
Dr. Mario -
Marth 0
Lucina 0
Metaknight -
Ness -
Olimar -
Palutena 0
Pikachu - - -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach +
Zelda +
R.O.B. +
Rosalina -
Samus -
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link -
Villager -
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer +
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus 0
Megaman +
Pacman +
Sonic 0
Ryu +
Roy +
Mewtwo +
Lucas 0
Brawler 0
Swordfighter 0
Gunner 0

I am a Lazy Person. I agree to 90%. The Red ones are changed

 

[ARGHETH]

Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt +
Falco 0
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike 0
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario -
Luigi -
Mario -
Dr. Mario +
Marth 0
Lucina +
Metaknight -
Ness -
Olimar +
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach +
Zelda -
R.O.B. +
Robin 0
Rosalina -
Samus +
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link -
Villager -
Wario -
Wii Fit Trainer +
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu
Roy
Mewtwo
Lucas
Brawler
Swordfighter
Gunner

 

[ixos]

////////////******
Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt
Falco
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike +
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario -
Luigi -
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth 0
Lucina 0
Metaknight -
Ness -
Olimar 0
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach
Zelda -
R.O.B.
Robin 0
Rosalina -
Samus +
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link -
Villager -
Wario -
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman
Sonic -
Ryu -
Roy 0
Mewtwo
Lucas
Brawler
Swordfighter
Gunner
******//////////

Anything left blank I'm unsure about.

 

[Raziek]

I will preface my post by saying I think the end result of the chart is not likely to be useful, as not all opinions are created equal and lots of people are blatantly either ignorant or misinformed. These types of projects only work when qualified persons are involved, such as with the Brawl matchup charts.

That said, if I don't vote at all, I'm part of the problem, so here's my list.I do, however, choose to abstain from voting on matchups I literally have no idea on. No vote is better than an uninformed vote.

Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt +
Falco +
Fox 0
Mr. Game & Watch +
Ganondorf +
Greninja +
Ike +
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario -
Luigi +
Mario -
Dr. Mario +
Marth 0
Lucina 0
Metaknight 0
Ness 0
Olimar 0
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach +
Zelda +
R.O.B. 0
Robin 0
Rosalina 0
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link 0
Villager +
Wario +
Wii Fit Trainer 0 (??? No idea here tbh)
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman +
Pacman ???
Sonic -
Ryu +
Roy +
Mewtwo +
Lucas +
Brawler -
Swordfighter ???
Gunner ???

 

[Pheno]

Edit: As much as I would love to explain my choices for all these, I'm just going to leave it as this as per the rules. My region (North California/Central California) is extremely diverse and we almost have a really good player for every character so I'd like to think I have a good handle on a lot of these. If anyone has any questions about my list, let me know and I'll answer it to the best of my ability. P.S It's been so long since I've been on these boards, since when did all the Robin mains get complex tags <___<

Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon +
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt -
Falco 0
Fox +
Mr. Game & Watch -
Ganondorf +
Greninja +
Ike +
Jigglypuff 0
King Dedede +
Kirby 0
Link +
Little Mac 0
Lucario 0
Luigi -
Mario -
Dr. Mario -
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight +
Ness 0
Olimar -
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit +
Peach +
Zelda 0
R.O.B. +
Rosalina 0
Samus +
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer +
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman +
Sonic +
Ryu +
Roy +
Mewtwo -
Lucas +
Brawler -
Swordfighter 0
Gunner 0

 

[Nah]

I will preface my post by saying I think the end result of the chart is not likely to be useful, as not all opinions are created equal and lots of people are blatantly either ignorant or misinformed. These types of projects only work when qualified persons are involved, such as with the Brawl matchup charts.

Idk, it might be interesting to see what the end result is, to sort of have a quick visual idea of what the community seems to think about all the MUs, so long as everyone keeps in mind that the chart's not completely official/should be taken with a grain of salt. Might even be interesting to see how it differs from the official one made by a group of top level players when they do make that one.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

I will preface my post by saying I think the end result of the chart is not likely to be useful, as not all opinions are created equal and lots of people are blatantly either ignorant or misinformed. These types of projects only work when qualified persons are involved, such as with the Brawl matchup charts.

That said, if I don't vote at all, I'm part of the problem, so here's my list.I do, however, choose to abstain from voting on matchups I literally have no idea on. No vote is better than an uninformed vote.

Well said. Also why is Robin - for Sonic and Brawler. Honestly I can't see it at all I have heard reasons but it just doesn't fit. I think even at the very least.

 

[Raziek]

Sonic is arguably even, but you're absolutely out of your mind if you think we're even with Brawler.

1111/2222/3333 default size Brawler, maybe, but Super Small with HKick and Feint Jump DESTROYS US.

 

[Zareidriel]

It's gonna be more of a "what the community thinks chart" than a real Matchup Chart. If we're lucky it could end up being semi-semi-accurate. Making a real one would be much harder and take much longer. I'm not sure if I'll be involved in that since it would probably be best facilitated by asking top-level players/analysts via the Smash 4 Back Room.

IMHO Sonic is even but I could see it being - as well.

 

[Delzethin]

Mind if I take a swing at this one? I'm going to label mine a little differently. Mainly for personal reasons; I just like it when my lists are a little more elaborate. I'll make sure you don't have to change it much to suit your needs, just take off the extra pluses and minuses!

= : Even
+/- : Small Advantage/Disadvantage
++/-- : Significant Advantage/Disadvantage
+++/--- : Overwhelming Advantage/Disadvantage
? : Unsure


Bowser: ++
Bowser Jr.: +
Captain Falcon: -
Charizard: ++
Diddy Kong: --
Donkey Kong: +++
Duck Hunt: +
Falco: +
Fox: -
Mr. Game & Watch: ?
Ganondorf: ++
Greninja: +
Ike: +
Jigglypuff: + or ++
King Dedede: +
Kirby: +
Link: =
Little Mac: ?
Lucario: =
Luigi: +
Mario: -- (Matches their colors, appropriately enough)
Dr. Mario: =
Marth: =
Lucina: +
Metaknight: =
Ness: =
Olimar: -
Palutena: ?
Pikachu: --
Pit & Dark Pit: =
Peach: +
Zelda: ?
R.O.B.: -
Robin: =
Rosalina: =
Samus: =
Sheik: -
Shulk: ++
Toon Link: =
Villager: +
Wario: =
Wii Fit Trainer: ?
Yoshi: =
Zero Suit Samus: --
Mega Man: +
Pac-Man: =
Sonic: =
Ryu: +
Roy: ++
Mewtwo: +
Lucas: =
Mii Brawler: Depends. + if restricted to default size/1111 specials, = with default size/any specials, and --- (!) with any size/any specials.
Mii Swordfighter: ?
Mii Gunner: ?

 

[M@v]

Bowser +
Bowser Jr 0
Captain Falcon +
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong+
Duck Hunt 0
Falco -
Fox 0 (Stage dependent tbh; smaller stages robin wins larger stages fox wins. So I'm cutting it down the middle)
Mr. Game & Watch +
Ganondorf +
Greninja +
Ike 0
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede+
Kirby 0
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario +
Luigi+
Mario -
Dr. Mario+
Marth 0
Lucina 0
Metaknight +
Ness 0
Olimar ???
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach 0
Zelda 0
R.O.B. 0
Robin Female wins. ヽ( ͡°╭͜ʖ╮͡° )ﾉ
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk -
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario +
Wii Fit Trainer +
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu 0
Roy -
Mewtwo +
Lucas +
Brawler ???
Swordfighter +
Gunner ???

 

[TheHypnotoad]

These results will be biased depending on how common certain characters are in a region. People who have never played against a certain character outside For Glory or something will probably put the matchup as even because they don't know the matchup, despite it actually not being even.

Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon 0
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt 0
Falco 0
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike +
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link -
Little Mac -
Lucario -
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight -
Ness 0
Olimar -
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach 0
Zelda -
R.O.B. 0
Robin 0
Rosalina 0
Samus -
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link -
Villager -
Wario +
Wii Fit Trainer -
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu +
Roy +
Mewtwo 0
Lucas 0
Brawler -
Swordfighter +
Gunner 0

 

[Zareidriel]

Voting closes tomorrow at midnight. Get those ballots in!

 

[Dathx]

Was interesting to read other's general ideas of Robin's MU spread. Wrote some stuff next to MUs that I saw was consistently weird.

Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt +
Falco +
Fox 0
Mr. Game & Watch + (this MU became "+" after checkmate patch, he has so much lag after bucket Robin can grab punish)
Ganondorf +
Greninja +
Ike 0
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link +
Little Mac 0
Lucario -
Luigi +
Mario -
Dr. Mario +
Marth 0
Lucina +
Metaknight + (this MU is really easy, camp on stage edges and MK loses half of his options aka dash attack, then checkmate)
Ness 0
Olimar 0
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit +
Peach +
Zelda + (how is this ANYTHING BUT +)
R.O.B. -
Robin 0
Rosalina 0
Samus +
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link +
Villager 0
Wario +
Wii Fit Trainer ?
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman +
Pacman ?
Sonic 0
Ryu +
Roy +
Mewtwo ?
Lucas ?
Brawler - (unless 1-1-1-1 mid mid, then 0)
Swordfighter ?
Gunner ?

 

[TheHypnotoad]

How does Robin beat Greninja? As far as I can tell, he has way better mobility, a more spammable projectile, and a better grab.

 

[Delzethin]

How does Robin beat Greninja? As far as I can tell, he has way better mobility, a more spammable projectile, and a better grab.

He's also a big target when he's not running, falls fast which makes him easier to combo, and--get this--our jab shuts down almost all of his approach options...and then Wind Jab can put 18% on him without breaking a sweat. If he holds onto a Water Shuriken for too long, we can just short hop over it and chuck a spell at him for it. His projectile may be more spammable, but we use ours for other reasons than spam.

 

[Nah]

Greninja's grab is overall not better than ours. It funnily enough has a worse standing grab and a possibly worse pivot grab. Dash grab is better than Robin's though, but that's because half of what makes a dash grab good is your run speed.

He's also a big target when he's not running, falls fast which makes him easier to combo, and--get this--our jab shuts down almost all of his approach options...and then Wind Jab can put 18% on him without breaking a sweat. If he holds onto a Water Shuriken for too long, we can just short hop over it and chuck a spell at him for it. His projectile may be more spammable, but we use ours for other reasons than spam.

That's just things we can do to it. We can do things to Sheik too (hell, everyone can do something to each other really), but that doesn't mean the MU is in our favor. Otherwise you could claim that Ganondorf beats everyone; he has good range, is very heavy, and has the raw power to kill everyone at sub-60% if he wants.

Except wait

Ganondorf is awful. Because he has almost no approach.....and a bad grab......and ****ty frame data.....and a sub-par recovery.....and no projectile......and no mobility. So he has a very difficult time making use of his strengths.

The important thing in a MU is how much more consistently and frequently one character can exploit the other's weaknesses. Can Robin do that in this MU?

Sure, Jab (praise be that move) beats out his approach options and we win up close.....but Greninja doesn't even want to approach for 90% of the match. Greninja's vastly superior mobility+shurikens allows it to play keepaway and bait-and-punish the whole match. Literally the only thing we have to get it to approach is Thoron, but good luck getting that charged up.

Also at the bit about SHing shurikens: the window for that is pretty small. Water Shuriken has 26 frames of endlag. The first 3 Thunder spells have 10 frames of startup and Robin has a 7 frame jumpsquat, so that's 17 frames spent just getting over the shuriken and putting the hitbox out, leaving 9 frames where Greninja is actually vulnerable to that (or 10 rather, including the 1 frame it takes to get shield up), and there's still things like travel time of the spell and reacting to the release of the shuriken eating up frames.

 

[Janno]

Greninja can sideb out of many multihits including our jab and arcfire (not arcthunder afaik)
This mu is not that bad but slighty in grens favour because of his speed

 

[Raziek]

Greninja can't actually side-B out of either of our Jabs effectively, he has too much lag. You can just jab him again, sometimes grab depending on when he pops out.

I now have an actually good Greninja in my region and feel more qualified to speak on the MU than I used to. Fairly confident in agreeing with Dath that it's 55-45 Robin.

 

[M@v]

Greninja can't actually side-B out of either of our Jabs effectively, he has too much lag. You can just jab him again, sometimes grab depending on when he pops out.

I now have an actually good Greninja in my region and feel more qualified to speak on the MU than I used to. Fairly confident in agreeing with Dath that it's 55-45 Robin.

Its funny because one of the better players in my region is a Greninja as well. Good Robins must give off something that attracts good greninjas. Then again, my region has pretty much every character except for Sheik so yeaaaahhh....

 

[Zareidriel]

Zareidriel Robin votes tallied