Matchup Chart Project 2015 - Calling Meta Knight Mains!

[Zareidriel]

Hello Metaknight boards,

I'm Zareidriel. Over in this thread a guy called Assassannerr made a matchup chart, and asked people to help fill it out. It seems like it would be a cool thing to have. With once glance you could have a rough idea of a matchup. It won't be perfect, but for our first go at it in 2015 we're aiming for "somewhat functional."

So here's what I'm going to do. Go to every Character Discussion board, and ask the folks there if they wouldn't mind contributing. To submit one vote, you'll have to fill out one of these:

////////////******
Bowser
Bowser Jr
Captain Falcon
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Duck Hunt
Falco
Fox
Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Greninja
Ike
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Kirby
Link
Little Mac
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
Dr. Mario
Marth
Lucina
Metaknight
Ness
Olimar
Palutena
Pikachu
Pit & Dark Pit
Peach
Zelda
R.O.B.
Robin
Rosalina
Samus
Sheik
Shulk
Toon Link
Villager
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Yoshi
Zero Suit Samus
Megaman
Pacman
Sonic
Ryu
Roy
Mewtwo
Lucas
Brawler
Swordfighter
Gunner
******//////////


Mark each character with a + for a match where Metaknight HAS THE ADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a - for a match where Metaknight HAS THE DISADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a number 0 for a match you feel is very even.

NOTE THAT I AM ONLY TAKING VOTES FROM MEMBERS WITH Metaknight IN THEIR PROFILE BAR. It can be as either "Wii U Main" or "3DS Main". But if Metaknight is in neither one of those slots when I count the votes on Friday, Nov 13, it won't be counted.

(Yes, for the avid democrats out there, that means you can vote for one other character as well.)

Like I said, they won't be perfect, and each board will probably be a little biased toward their own respective character. But the results should be interesting regardless.

If this thing is successful maybe we'll do a revised version in 2016.

Thanks very much for participating! We need as many votes as possible for each character so please submit a ballot!

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

There's literally like maybe 7 of us on the boards whose opinion you should take seriously.

 

[Zareidriel]

I considered doing weighted opinions/more votes for better-known members. But decided it would be too complicated and arbitrary to implement. I'll happily take anyone's vote and we'll just see what happens~

 

[warionumbah2]

Ight.

We lose to everyone cuz our range is poor and our neutral is gutter trash.

 

[Jamurai]

Tbh a matchup chart is pointless when the game is only one year old, and we're still getting entire new characters added to the game, as well as patches which can change matchups drastically...

 

[Zareidriel]

I do agree somewhat, and there are others that share the same sentiments as you. I'm fully aware of the risks and a result that could be completely janky. Call me an optimist but I feel like there's a pretty good chance that it could be semi-semi-accurate if we get decent levels of participation.

 

[Katakiri]

Meta Knight kills every character in the game (minus Greninja) off the top from 0-50% with a true combo that all starts from arguable the safest Dash Attack in the game. It's not situational or frame-perfect like other 0-deaths, it's a very easy combo from the best Dash Attack in the game. And MK's also a very solid high-tier character without that combo if the player fails the execution.

It's unfortunate but unless a patch removes this setup, match-up ratios are entirely pointless for this character because he has a tool that invalidates any bad MUs he would have otherwise.
We're negative against Diddy Kong...unless we land our Dash Attack
We're negative against ZSS...unless we land our Dash Attack
We're negative against Sheik...unless, you guessed it.

How do you even begin to measure that?
I mean there were functional strategies against Ice Climbers in Brawl like out-ranging them or camping them long enough to off Nana. What do you do against MK to prevent him from getting the combo? He's extremely mobile so running away from him is hardly viable for anyone but maybe Fox on Duck Hunt. 6 Jumps invalidates most projectiles outside of neutral if you try camping him. Being on a platform or in the air is counter-productive since he'll just start the combo without the Dash Attack pop-up if you're above him. Standing on the edge of the stage isn't even enough due to Dash Attack having 3 different hitboxes/pop-up angles and one catches that option. And it's also not like top level MKs are just spamming Dash Attack, we're going to be baiting and punishing with the Dash Attack because it's fast enough to punish with. On paper, it's the dumbest thing ever because the only answer I've found is to just out-play the MK but that doesn't have as much to do with MUs as it does the player.

I mean seriously, how can that be factored into a MU chart? I don't think the concept of a MU ratio works for MK. I think MU write-ups can work for him by explaining how both sides should play any given MU but slapping a MU ratio on isn't going to be possible for MK.

I really, really dislike it but that's how I feel on the matter of MK's MUs.

 

[Amadeus9]

This seems whiny and kinda "special snowflake" but I'm going to agree with kata, lol. Might be better to abstain from the chart altogether. Every time I discover some new setup, or see a foot stool combo executed, or 0 death a sheik off bthrow... it's just like... nah

 

[Zareidriel]

Meta Knight does better against some characters, and worse against some characters, no? Regardless of his insane kill setup potential and the fact that you feel that he lies outside the concept of matchups itself. If you don't feel like you could contribute a meaningful vote that's fine, I don't want to pressure anybody.

But in the coming days, if there are any Meta Knight players out there that would like to submit a ballot, I would appreciate it. It would look a little silly to have one blank line. If nothing else I'll just have to guess his matchups myself =P

 

[Jamurai]

I do agree somewhat, and there are others that share the same sentiments as you. I'm fully aware of the risks and a result that could be completely janky. Call me an optimist but I feel like there's a pretty good chance that it could be semi-semi-accurate if we get decent levels of participation.

(Not to be a knob...) It's not about risk, it's the fact that since the game is so young, I don't think there is any matchup in this game which is actually defined properly yet. "Semi-semi-accurate" is essentially not accurate at all. I simply disagree with making this right now because it requires a fair amount of effort and collaboration for something which is probably misinformation and therefore not helpful, possibly even detrimental. It seems you want to make it for the sake of it by the fact you think it'd be appropriate to just "guess" matchups which people don't know enough about to call it either way.

Going back to my earlier point, and like Katakiri implied, if a patch removes Uair combos literally every matchup of ours changes drastically. We're discovering new stuff about our character every couple of weeks it seems, just like a lot of others. It makes much more sense to hold off on something like this for at least another year or two.

 

[Zareidriel]

I believe that it could be helpful, and there are some people that agree with me. All the effort anyone else besides me has to do is just vote, a pretty small effort. It's me who gets the hard job, to convince 50+ character boards that this is a worthwhile endeavor. Not an easy task, I've been slammed since yesterday!

But I'm glad to say, that the Matchup Chart Project is already well underway, if you would like to take a look around the other character boards, I believe we will have more than enough participation to finish the project (and it's only been 24 hours!). Like I said, you are free to not participate, but the ballot will continue in the hope of any interested parties coming forward.

 

[Amadeus9]

I would be interested in our boards submitting a complete matchup spread list. ... only because it would be better than a random deciding to make every + or -, or spread misinformation and what not. We actually have a pretty solid idea of our spread among our experienced users.

 

[warionumbah2]

May as well leave MK blank, probably gonna get jacked up results such as: MK losing to sword characters or going even with Sheik(High chance the last one will happen).

Easy solution.

 

[busken]

Yeah I definitely agree with Jamurai
The Meta is still young and patches are coming left and right.
Ike literally when from being among the worst in 3ds days to getting top 8 at a national.
Also, if the u-air strings get patched out that would drastically change some MU's

Honestly, it's too early

 

[Amadeus9]

I'm just concerned this will be taken seriously, like how the reddit tier lists are. I don't want to see sheik being even with mk, and that being what everyone believes x (

Btw, just to give you an idea of why we have this opinion, we consider mks worst matchup to be mk. There have been many, many high/top level matches where a player cps mk with mk, and the mk that is less experienced wins. Hyuga pulled that on Leo about a month ago.

I do however, after thinking about it, think that being non participant is unproductive, especially in light of how this chart is likely going to haunt us for months or years if we don't give our input. I'll go ahead and give my opinions... but not with + or - because it doesn't give an accurate portrayal of how our matchups work. Hell even ratios don't.

Bowser 6040
Bowser Jr 6040
Captain Falcon 5545
Charizard 5545
Diddy Kong 5050
Donkey Kong 6040
Duck Hunt ?
Falco 6040
Fox 5050
Mr. Game & Watch 5050 or 5545
Ganondorf 6040
Greninja 4555
Ike 5545
Jigglypuff 7030
King Dedede 6040
Kirby 6040
Link 6040
Little Mac 7030
Lucario 5050 or 5545
Luigi 5545
Mario 5050
Dr. Mario 6040
Marth 5545
Lucina 5545 or 6040
Metaknight special note for being extremely volatile.
Ness 5545 or 6040
Olimar 5545 or 6040
Palutena 7030
Pikachu 5050
Pit & Dark Pit 5545, pit does better than dark pit
Peach 5545
Zelda 7030
R.O.B. 5545
Robin 5545
Rosalina 7030
Samus 8020
Sheik 4555
Shulk 6040
Toon Link 5545
Villager 5545
Wario 5050
Wii Fit Trainer 5545
Yoshi 4555
Zero Suit Samus 4060
Megaman 5545
Pacman 5545
Sonic 5050 or 4555
Ryu 4555
Roy 6040
Mewtwo 6040
Lucas 5545
Brawler don't care
Swordfighter don't care
Gunner don't care

I'm probably going to get some flak for answering but I would like to be at least somewhat constructive. Again, killing people absurdly early with low commitment makes this all kind of mean nothing.

 

[Zareidriel]

Whoever takes the chart seriously is a silly person. Thanks for braving the flak! If nobody voted I was going to have to do MK's matchups myself and that would not have been a pretty picture.

 

[busken]

Whoever takes the chart seriously is a silly person. Thanks for braving the flak! If nobody voted I was going to have to do MK's matchups myself and that would not have been a pretty picture.

Thanks for all your hard work in making the project. We will we be sure to make a contribution.

 

[Ulevo]

I'd like to interject and just say that there are some misconceptions being spread here. While there are %'s at which Meta Knight can chain up airs into the blast zone, some of those %'s are significantly larger in window and more generous than others, while others are so narrow and specific that it essentially means Meta Knight cannot reliably do this. This is one of the reasons why Sheik performs well against Meta Knight; she has the opportunity to fight him with a full stock. Ironically no one here has bothered to properly test these %'s and many opponents do not even DI the combos so these claims about how good this is are greatly exaggerated.

There are also characters that, along with having a smaller window of danger, have an easier time maneuvering and avoiding Meta Knights set ups. If up air chains are such a critical factor then the ease and likeliness of whether or not it is possible should play a role in a match up ratio.

I am not going to contibute to the topic because while people are wasting their time with fractions I would prefer to be learning the actual match ups. Looking at a chart is not going to get me results, and it is going to be very convoluted and divided in opinion.

We're discovering new stuff about our character every couple of weeks it seems.

I suppose this is why the forums and Skype are riddled with relevant contribution.

 

[Amadeus9]

I'd like to interject and just say that there are some misconceptions being spread here. While there are %'s at which Meta Knight can chain up airs into the blast zone, some of those %'s are significantly larger in window and more generous than others, while others are so narrow and specific that it essentially means Meta Knight cannot reliably do this. This is one of the reasons why Sheik performs well against Meta Knight; she has the opportunity to fight him with a full stock. Ironically no one here has bothered to properly test these %'s and many opponents do not even DI the combos so these claims about how good this is are greatly exaggerated.

There are also characters that, along with having a smaller window of danger, have an easier time maneuvering and avoiding Meta Knights set ups. If up air chains are such a critical factor then the ease and likeliness of whether or not it is possible should play a role in a match up ratio.

I am not going to contibute to the topic because while people are wasting their time with fractions I would prefer to be learning the actual match ups. Looking at a chart is not going to get me results, and it is going to be very convoluted and divided in opinion.



I suppose this is why the forums and Skype are riddled with relevant contribution.

Man, you left the Skype group because you don't like us for some reason. You're always going on about this and that but you never back any **** up, just complain that no one else is doing any research/has any mental capacity to figure things out. Get your head out of your ass. Nothing I've seen you post in the past 1-2 months has been useful, helpful, or a positive contribution to a discussion. Cut it out.

 

[Ulevo]

Man, you left the Skype group because you don't like us for some reason. You're always going on about this and that but you never back any **** up, just complain that no one else is doing any research/has any mental capacity to figure things out. Get your head out of your ***. Nothing I've seen you post in the past 1-2 months has been useful, helpful, or a positive contribution to a discussion. Cut it out.

If you want to be genuinely factual here, I did not leave the Skype group because I dislike anyone. The group I made was meant to promote discussion amongst Meta Knight mains. I left when it became a place where that did not happen. If you want to talk about contribution, I have contributed more than you by a fair margin. If you want to talk about positive discussion, I have generally been the individual reporting findings to promote discussion, although that is where my effort ends. I am not going to heckle people to talk about match ups or stage picks or how a technique can be utilized.

I am not "backing anything up" because I deliberately choose not to. I was making a gesture that some of the things you are saying are incorrect. How do I know? I checked. I figured the character complaints were a bit much so I piped up, but I am not invested enough to debate with you.

 

[Jamurai]

> Doesn't do what I want
> They must be a ****

okay

EDIT: The above was a response to a post which was deleted.

Just take Amadeus's list as our contribution, it's at least semi-semi-accurate so it should suffice.

 

[Zareidriel]

Voting closes tomorrow at midnight. Get those ballots in!

I'll have no choice but to do that if he's my only vote. But I would prefer to have others if anyone has the time.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

+2
+1
+1
0
+1
0 (changed from -1 but I'm on the fence about it)
-1
+1
+2
+2
+1
+1
+1
0
+1
+1
+1
+1
0
+1
+2
+3
-1
0
+1
+1
+1
0
+2
-1
+1
+1
0
+1
+2
+1
+1
+1
+2
+2
+1
+1
+1
+2
+1
+1
+2
+1
+1 (changed from even)
0
+3
+2
+1
0


Note: Despite not really agreeing with a universal chart, I chose to contribute because its admirable someone is trying to help. If you don't want to contribute that's cool. If you do, that's cool too. People seem to make arguments out of innocuous subjects lol

 

[warionumbah2]

People argue because MU ratios are simply not worth making at this current time, this came out of nowhere so people are gonna come at the guy like "what the hell is this?". However this isn't a serious project so whatever i guess.

I put some characters as '?' if that's ok with you.

Spoiler

+2
+1
+1
+0
+1
+0
-1
+0 or +1
+2
+2
+1
+1
+1
+0
+1
+0
+1
?
+1
+1
+2
+2
-1 (no its not even)
-1
+1
+1
+1
?
+2
-1 (don't listen to ZeRo we don't do well against her)
+2
?
+0
+1
+1
-1000
+1
+1
+1
+1
+1
+1
+1 or 0 apparently
+2
Don't care
Don't care
Don't care
+1
+1
+0
+1
+1
+1
?

 

[Mental Surge]

I don't agree with the and MUs as people are describing here. I usually never have trouble with either. ZSS players can be annoying with that back throw to spike combo garbage though.

That characters I have the most trouble with are:

- seriously, screw this MU
- possibly the most annoying MU
- also incredibly annoying MU

There are quite a few others that I hate facing, like ,,,, and, but they I don't lose too them enough to warrant them being on the previous list.

 

[Amadeus9]

I don't agree with the and MUs as people are describing here. I usually never have trouble with either. ZSS players can be annoying with that back throw to spike combo garbage though.

That characters I have the most trouble with are:

- seriously, screw this MU
- possibly the most annoying MU
- also incredibly annoying MU

There are quite a few others that I hate facing, like ,,,, and, but they I don't lose too them enough to warrant them being on the previous list.

lmao

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I don't agree with the and MUs as people are describing here. I usually never have trouble with either. ZSS players can be annoying with that back throw to spike combo garbage though.

That characters I have the most trouble with are:

- seriously, screw this MU
- possibly the most annoying MU
- also incredibly annoying MU

There are quite a few others that I hate facing, like ,,,, and, but they I don't lose too them enough to warrant them being on the previous list.

Although, I really do just want to troll you, I'll approach this logically.

Can you explain why you feel the way you do about those MUs? I'm happy to explain why you're mistaken (and trust me, you are if you think Megaman, Rosa and, Link Toon Link are bad MUs - For Glory boys?) If you do reply, please use logical responses referencing specific aspects of the MU. Thank you.

 

[Mental Surge]

lmao

Ah I guess I should have expected this. I forgot how much of a waste of time this forum is.

Although, I really do just want to troll you, I'll approach this logically.

Can you explain why you feel the way you do about those MUs? I'm happy to explain why you're mistaken (and trust me, you are if you think Megaman, Rosa and, Link Toon Link are bad MUs - For Glory boys?) If you do reply, please use logical responses referencing specific aspects of the MU. Thank you.

Lol how about no. I was going to but I can already see the mentality that you all have. That anyone who disagrees is essentially an idiot. It would not matter what I say, as you have already come to the conclusion that I am wrong.

Yeah no, have fun circle jerking each other. (and thinking that greninja and ZSS are actually difficult XD)

 

[eclipsis17]

Anyone who disagrees with what is established, is either misinformed or knows very specific counterplays that are not known by rest of the group. If you know these counterplays, (by either side of the matchup) please, share it with us. It's very easy to assume you are wrong and misinformed when you refuse to provide evidence.

Ridiculing others on an internet forum over a children's party game will only get you so far.

 

[Magnemite]

it would help if he did something to back up his positions that matchups everyone thinks are very easy for us are supposedly bad other than just say "they're annoying"

 

[Jamurai]

I don't agree with the and MUs as people are describing here. I usually never have trouble with either. ZSS players can be annoying with that back throw to spike combo garbage though.

That characters I have the most trouble with are:

- seriously, screw this MU
- possibly the most annoying MU
- also incredibly annoying MU

There are quite a few others that I hate facing, like ,,,, and, but they I don't lose too them enough to warrant them being on the previous list.

Based on the matchups you find tough, I'm gonna go ahead and assume you either play mainly online, or are very impatient ingame.

• ZSS matchups here are actually outdated after new strats devised for the matchup, it's pretty even
• Greninja is hard because of SSHC shenanigans invalidating Uair combos and also his neutral is good enough for us to worry about, good Greninjas will give you a tough game
• There is plenty of evidence that we destroy Rosa, both sides agree on this strongly
• Link and Mega Man are not a problem offline (not sure about Tink but I'm fairly sure he's even at worst)

I would also be interested in your reasoning for why you think these things.

Don't worry about Amadeus9 he's an edgelord. In any case, assuming that no one will help you and refusing to talk about stuff cause someone was a bit mean to you is pretty silly.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Ah I guess I should have expected this. I forgot how much of a waste of time this forum is.



Lol how about no. I was going to but I can already see the mentality that you all have. That anyone who disagrees is essentially an idiot. It would not matter what I say, as you have already come to the conclusion that I am wrong.

Yeah no, have fun circle jerking each other. (and thinking that greninja and ZSS are actually difficult XD)

People actually help and answer questions here pretty regularly.

From an outside perspective, you're using really subjective terminology such as "I feel like this MU is annoying". Typically "annoying" isn't an adjective you use to describe aspects of MUs unless you're scrubby or a teenager.

Not sure what part of Canada you're from but I hail from one of the best states in America and I am ranked. I've been a solo MK main for about a year now and I am firmly integrated with the community. I have a great deal of offline experience and so in regards to most MUs, I feel comfortable articulating my thoughts about them and will if requested. For you to not share your experiences when you have a controversial opinion with no real rapport or reputation suggests you're not worth listening to. That may not be the case but you're not really giving anyone here any reason to take you seriously. Granted, I don't really care if you don't want to talk about MUs. I know who the knowledgeable players are and who to talk to when I have questions or need to discuss serious meta game advancement.

tl;dr If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. You do you though. Have fun thinking Link is actually a hard MU.

 

[LostinpinK]

I disagree with people saying that it's too early to have a MU chart. I'd rather have an approximative one than none. The only annoying thing is misinformed people trying to discuss and correct approximative charts, only causing confusion and spreading misinformation.

What I would like the most is the first post to be edited with good players' personal tier lists without designating an official one, and letting people make their own opinion on each matchup charts, while knowing who created it. We should start with putting TECHnology 's and Amadeus' charts up there, and then ask Ito for his tier list if he still posts here.

Fyi ItoI6 posted this tier list like 7 months ago:

Spoiler: Ito's June tier list

vs sheik 40-60

vs diddy 40-60

vs rosa 60-40

vs fox 40-60

vs zero suit 30-70

vs sonic 35-65

vs pikachu 50-50

vs falcon 30-70

vs luigi 45-55

vs ness 65-35

vs yoshi 35-65

vs mario 50-50

vs villager 60-40

vs megaman 50-50

vs wario 50-50

vs pit 50-50

vs dark pit 50-50

vs olimar 70-30

19) vs mk

vs duck hunt 60-40

vs greninja 40-60

vs shulk 65-35

vs ROB 50-50

vs Pac 60-40

vs Lucario 50-50

vs Peach 50-50

vs Robin 70-30

vs Toon 65-35

vs Ike 65-35

vs Falco 60-40

vs bowser jr 65-35

vs kirby 60-40

vs dr mario 55-45

vs dk 75-25

vs bowser 65-35

vs palutena 60-40

vs mewtwo 70-30

vs marth 65-35

vs lucina 70-30

vs king dedede 65-35

vs charizard 65-35

vs mr gnw 60-40

vs link 70-30

vs wii fit 60-40

vs zelda 75-25

vs samus 70-30

vs mac 80-20

vs jiggly 70-30

vs ganon 75-25

(I'm too lazy to find the source, sorry, it was probably somewhere in one of the sticky threads)
Our meta has certainly developped a lot, but it's still interesting to know top players' thoughts about matchups. Because every top player has a mental approximative matchup chart, we just need them to write it down, even if the data is missing for characters that are never played in their regions (but then again, who cares about the mii swordsman MU).
We could then present them in the first post, oredered by the player's reputation.

TL;DR : Wanting an unified MU chart after 1 year is being utopist, but asking top players to write down their current mental MU chart, even if it's a little bit off, would be much more valuable to our community than spending months on individual MU discussions.

 

[Amadeus9]

I disagree with people saying that it's too early to have a MU chart. I'd rather have an approximative one than none. The only annoying thing is misinformed people trying to discuss and correct approximative charts, only causing confusion and spreading misinformation.

What I would like the most is the first post to be edited with good players' personal tier lists without designating an official one, and letting people make their own opinion on each matchup charts, while knowing who created it. We should start with putting TECHnology 's and Amadeus' charts up there, and then ask Ito for his tier list if he still posts here.

Fyi ItoI6 posted this tier list like 7 months ago:

Spoiler: Ito's June tier list

vs sheik 40-60

vs diddy 40-60

vs rosa 60-40

vs fox 40-60

vs zero suit 30-70

vs sonic 35-65

vs pikachu 50-50

vs falcon 30-70

vs luigi 45-55

vs ness 65-35

vs yoshi 35-65

vs mario 50-50

vs villager 60-40

vs megaman 50-50

vs wario 50-50

vs pit 50-50

vs dark pit 50-50

vs olimar 70-30

19) vs mk

vs duck hunt 60-40

vs greninja 40-60

vs shulk 65-35

vs ROB 50-50

vs Pac 60-40

vs Lucario 50-50

vs Peach 50-50

vs Robin 70-30

vs Toon 65-35

vs Ike 65-35

vs Falco 60-40

vs bowser jr 65-35

vs kirby 60-40

vs dr mario 55-45

vs dk 75-25

vs bowser 65-35

vs palutena 60-40

vs mewtwo 70-30

vs marth 65-35

vs lucina 70-30

vs king dedede 65-35

vs charizard 65-35

vs mr gnw 60-40

vs link 70-30

vs wii fit 60-40

vs zelda 75-25

vs samus 70-30

vs mac 80-20

vs jiggly 70-30

vs ganon 75-25

(I'm too lazy to find the source, sorry, it was probably somewhere in one of the sticky threads)
Our meta has certainly developped a lot, but it's still interesting to know top players' thoughts about matchups. Because every top player has a mental approximative matchup chart, we just need them to write it down, even if the data is missing for characters that are never played in their regions (but then again, who cares about the mii swordsman MU).
We could then present them in the first post, oredered by the player's reputation.

TL;DR : Wanting an unified MU chart after 1 year is being utopist, but asking top players to write down their current mental MU chart, even if it's a little bit off, would be much more valuable to our community than spending months on individual MU discussions.

Thats not what they want tho. They want to compile everything together. (it wont work)

 

[LostinpinK]

I agree that it's a nice idea in the long term, and that way we can get a roughly correct compiled matchup chart based on incorrect matchup charts in 6 months / a year. But only if we compile the data from top players, and not anyone who decided that MK is his flavor of the month and will put MK in his profile bar.

In the meantime, collecting several approximative MU charts from top players will be much more useful for our community. Moreover, it will be much more efficient than endless discussions on every single ratios if all we want to create is a consensus on good and bad MUs.

 

[CreatureComforts]

A unified matchup chart would only work under the assumption that a character has a dominant strategy. In other words, that there is one playstyle that is definitively the best way to play said character (at least for any given MU).

While this may look good on paper, when we take into account the different playstyles of each individual character, it gets much more complicated. How does a given character do against a Sheik that tends towards needle camping? How about an aggressive Sheik? Should we consider the MUs of campy Sheiks and aggressive Sheiks separately?

This is why comprehensive MU charts get so complicated. While I can see the merits of having a universal MU chart, I don't really think that, say, a MK player would really care about how favorable or unfavorable their MU against Samus is, because very few people play Samus, and of those few, a smaller fraction would even pose any sort of threat. A Samus player, however, may care because if the MU is very unfavorable for them, they might want to take this into account when choosing a secondary.

With this in mind, I feel that a character's best and worst matchups matter much more than anything in the middle. As a Lucario main, I couldn't give an accurate MU spread for him against every character in the game if I tried. However, I do know that his MUs vs. Ness, Rosalina, and Mario are atrocious. I also saw that Mario and Rosalina players tended to struggle against Meta Knight, and that MK has no significant troubles against Ness, which is a large part of the reason I chose Meta Knight as my secondary.

While the best/worst MU approach is more character specific, I feel it would be a more accurate and overall more useful representation of relevant MUs in the current meta, albeit less comprehensive. I don't necessarily support compiling a comprehensive list of best or worst MUs for each character, but I feel it would be more helpful than a list of every MU in the game that will unavoidably contain inaccurate information because of all of the reasons that the previous posters have pointed out, and would also be much more easy to compile, as some boards have been more reluctant to weigh in on the topic.



Tl;dr: I feel that a comprehensive list of every MU in the game would be too complicated to ever be practical, and feel that if we must have some sort of indicator of favorable/unfavorable MUs, we should only focus on MUs that are heavily advantageous or heavily disadvantageous to any given character, as those would be the most relevant when considering a character's strengths and weaknesses.

 

[ItoI6]

the idea of a matchup chart is fine i dont agree with saying he doesnt have one just because he can 0 to death people, there are clearly easier matchups and harder matchups. i made that chart a lot of patches ago and ive developed as a player so i changed a bunch of opinions. since we have a real tier list now ill just go down that

sheik - 35-65
zss - 40-60
rosa - 60-40
ryu - 55-45
pika - 60-40
sonic - 45-55
fox - 45-55
mario - 50-50
diddy - 45-55
villager - 60-40
cloud - not sure tbh clouds upair is really bad for mk maybe even
ness - 60-40
falcon - 50-50
yoshi - 55-45
luigi - 55-45
pit - 60-40
peach - 60-40
rob - 60-40
wario - 65-35
toon link - 55-45
lucario - 60-40
olimar - 60-40
greninja - 50-50
ike - 65-35
dk - 70-30
megaman - 50-50
pacman - 60-40
bowser - 70-30
robin - 65-35
roy - 60-40
kirby - 70-30
jr - 55-45
gnw - 65-35
lucas - 60-40
mewtwo - 65-35
falco - 60-40
wii fit - 60-40
shulk - 65-35
marth - 65-35
link - 65-35
duck hunt - 60-40
little mac - stage dependent maybe 65-35
doc - 60-40
dedede - 65-35
lucina - 70-30
brawler - dont know maybe 65-35
charizard - 65-35
palutena - 65-35
samus - 75-25
gunner - dont know maybe 70-30
sword - downt know maybe 65-35
ganon - 70-30
puff - 70-30
zelda - 70-30

think my opinion has gotten a lot more positive of mk overall

 

[Amadeus9]

the idea of a matchup chart is fine i dont agree with saying he doesnt have one just because he can 0 to death people, there are clearly easier matchups and harder matchups. i made that chart a lot of patches ago and ive developed as a player so i changed a bunch of opinions. since we have a real tier list now ill just go down that

sheik - 35-65
zss - 40-60
rosa - 60-40
ryu - 55-45
pika - 60-40
sonic - 45-55
fox - 45-55
mario - 50-50
diddy - 45-55
villager - 60-40
cloud - not sure tbh clouds upair is really bad for mk maybe even
ness - 60-40
falcon - 50-50
yoshi - 55-45
luigi - 55-45
pit - 60-40
peach - 60-40
rob - 60-40
wario - 65-35
toon link - 55-45
lucario - 60-40
olimar - 60-40
greninja - 50-50
ike - 65-35
dk - 70-30
megaman - 50-50
pacman - 60-40
bowser - 70-30
robin - 65-35
roy - 60-40
kirby - 70-30
jr - 55-45
gnw - 65-35
lucas - 60-40
mewtwo - 65-35
falco - 60-40
wii fit - 60-40
shulk - 65-35
marth - 65-35
link - 65-35
duck hunt - 60-40
little mac - stage dependent maybe 65-35
doc - 60-40
dedede - 65-35
lucina - 70-30
brawler - dont know maybe 65-35
charizard - 65-35
palutena - 65-35
samus - 75-25
gunner - dont know maybe 70-30
sword - downt know maybe 65-35
ganon - 70-30
puff - 70-30
zelda - 70-30

think my opinion has gotten a lot more positive of mk overall

I agree about cloud. IMO in best case that matchup is even.

 

[tyro8]

yea i agree with ur list ito. the cloud MU is even that u air is too good dair still confirms to it at high % and cloud dair is really safe bc it AC and the hitbox lasts a long time

 

[MKchouy]

Is there a reason why everyone thinks we win MUs vs big body characters so easily? I always see MK bodying characters in MU charts like D3, DK and Bowser. I know the uair combos are pretty free and those characters struggle with landings against MK, but otherwise I feel very outranged and giving them rage kills MK suuuper early. I'm sure I just don't know the MU well enough and I'm sure MK wins them, I just don't get how all big body characters seem free to MK for most people.

Also I find the sonic MU terrible.