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Match-up Notes

Barbeque

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
203
Location
905
These are my jotted match-up regimens. I don't intend on competing anymore, so I figured I would share.
I hope they help.
They will not be updated.




MARTH VERSUS

remember to look at marth after a throw to watch his hand return to his side to know you can output a move again
typically approaching with aerials is not safe and is better to stay ground game or zone with them, and space them.
a lot of good dashdance neutral game, and combo-ing from throws into kill moves, and maintaining stage control.


FOX - dashdance, chain grab, then pivot grab at 20% or uptilt techchase, 30% grab again upthrow, uptilt regrab,
upthrow upair/uptilt combos, upthrow into tipper fsmash. Platforms are good for combos. strike down to FoD or BF, then counter
to FD, BF. Yoshi's is harder to deal with if they go in super aggressive, but perhaps. fast fall to edge when they shine you off immediately and get back quick
or get up safe with ledge hop up-air, or standing get up, etc. if they counter to stadium thats chill. dtilt/sheildbreaker/fsmash great edgeguards spaced, or take edge bair,
dont get hit with firefox. FD is not rly one sided with marth fox. If they go hard you have to go harder. fthrow dtilt is dece to send off stage to edgeguard.
get tech reads and grab. uptilt to fsmash tippers. and upthrow to tipper fsmash at late%. uptilt+upairs juggles when they are above on platforms as well.
bair from edge also decent edgeguard.

ban dream land. counter to FD, BF. stadium isn't in foxes favour by that much.


FALCO - powershield or waveshield lasers in neutral. platforms are good for combos and mix-ups in neutral.
its better to either camp edge and wait for them to error an approach and throw off gimp with wavedashback shield or shieldgrab (DD pivot grab if that doesn't work),
or if they are camping, just run toward pressure and same strat on other side, switching sides if need be. if you chain grab, dtilt or get a bit of % first.
mainly gimp and edgeguard. techchase if needed. platforms are good for combos. platforms also make it harder for them to send lasers.
being swift and gimping with dthrow or fthrow+dtilt is key. side b or non tipper fair closes out the stock when they are in firebird off-stage.
uptilt up-air combos from upthrow are very similar to fox and work better with platforms. and can kill off upthrow+tipper fsmash/uptilt+tipper fsmash.
clipping falco out of his recovery with dtilt or jab after throwing them offstage is what screws them. then just follow up firebird with side+b/fair.

BF is good. Stage isn't so significant. FD can be iffy. stadium is fine, ban dream land.


SHEIK - dashdancing into a grab, or run/wavedash dtilts in neutral is key. if dtilt confirms, dash-grab will. pummel and upthrow, uptilts & upair/aerials,
rack damage juggling and take edge on every edgeguard. punish sheiks landing up+B lag from edgehog. Stadium is good. BF can work.
Yoshi's can work. fthrow fsmashing them sometimes tippers but depends on DI.
if you fthrow past 90% and they di outward, punishing her techland with a walk forward tipper-downsmash can work, as long as there is stage space for it.
although not simple to land. probably most important matchup to have down of all. landing the bair from edge edgeguard also kills.
always anticipate needles. you can crouch them/ out maneuver them but anticipating is best.
biggest opening for the kill move is punishing her up+b landing lag from edgehog. with fsmash/up+b etc. or punishing her fthrown DI with the killmove.
dashdancing to grab well, and capitalizing off every throw with juggles/combos to not let her back is very key.

Stadium and BF are good. FD is volatile for both. yoshi's can work.


PUFF - her roll is short and she is small. so maintain pressure/stage control. dashdance in neutral, and wait for her to error, punish it, and keep her out.
downthrow to fsmash is good. uptilt her at high% to kill. or side+b uptilt to kill.
if she crouches under you dash grabbing, she can rest you.
so space dtilts and stack aerials/juggles to rack up damage, and grab her when shes stuck, or errors an approach. don't stretch too far to hit her out there,
stay in vicinity and punish when she gets back near stage.
dont give her any breathing room, and don't be caught hesitating. play it safe and win neutral.
rack up damage by comboing from throw, or just tilts/aerials. just chip away until the kill move. space well and zone her.

counter to Stadium or FD. ban dream land. they will ban yoshi's. if they don't, go there.


PEACH - Peach can also not deal with your range and zoning, unless she has a turnip. if she ever is far away, run in and dtilt. punish every turnip pull.
like puff her rolls not good, and zoning fairs can work, but look out for her dash-attacking your short hop. get a dtilt grab, or a dashdance grab.
fthrow and fairs to fsmash body her early, or fthrow fsmash if bad DI. her up B isn't that good. so
roll or get up attack an edgehog. just keep her out and apply pressure and punish. and combo hard off grab, and most importantly, always
interrupt turnip asap. very close range isn't safe, but you can zone her out of stage and combo her, and apply
pressure. peach often tries to roll and airdodge past your zoning so punish that and throw them back out and zone again.
small stages with platforms are good, you can juggle her well with up-air from below. don't give breathing
room. she can't deal with being stage pressured so punish her always. juggling her, and edgeguarding her, and not allowing her breathing room
or turnips should do it.

Ban dream land. counter to stadium.


GANON - Ganon thrives off of breathing room. Do not hesitate for him.
rush in hard, or dashdance and punish off openings, but watch out for his fist.
fthrow into aerials, and fsmash. juggle him. fair is good and combos.
never allow him to re-adjust. maintain zoning him off and not allowing him to gain footing.
he is slow. grab and punish his laggy moves.
his recovery is slow and not too hard to follow up on edgeguarding.
you can out-run his grounded wizard foot and grab the lag.
ganons develop tendencies and habits out of his vulnerability between moves, so discover them punish them.
just maintain knocking him around. maintain stage control. dont get hit with fist. fsmash kills.

Yoshi's island does not work any more in your favour than his.
Ban dream land. Counter to stadium, BF, or FD.


FALCON - Uptilts combo into themselves on him. Platforms are good for combos, and up-airs + uptilts from below them early. you can duck under his dair when below
the platform on BF. He wants to chaingrab you. you have to combo DI (di away) everything. FD is bad. fthrow-techchase him early stock. techpunish with dash-attack
is good, and sets up into uptilts and up airs or Fsmash. his recovery is easy to follow up on or edgehog and punish. fsmash is a good combo finisher,
and upthrow to tipper fsmash kills at very high%. I like to catch him full momentum nair approaching with standing SH nair.
at 100% he gets a free downthrow knee kill. dtilt is a good edgeguarding and spacing tool as well as early stock%.
he sucks offstage without a jump. if you are killing him every time you get him off stage without a jump you are probably swagging.
early stock game is mostly dtilts/ fthrow techchases to mid% then juggle comboing from mid% to the kill move.
uptilts to upairs best past 30/40% with platforms. platforms will help.

Ban FD. Yoshi's counter. or perhaps stadium.


DOC - Doc can't deal with getting zoned, your stage control and well-spaced shorthop fairs, he will get roll read. Dtilt is good also.
juggle him with uptilt upairs also, and edgeguard him like Peach.
keep pressure, dont let him camp. slice pills or run under them. Dtilt also a good edgeguard.
you can kill him by edgeguarding, his recovery is not very good.
his go-to is jab dsmash, or dthrow to fair kill, or bair edgeguards and his sidestep is also fast. dont let him get in very close range.

Ban dream land. yoshi's is good, stadium, BF. doesn't matter a whole lot.


MARIO - Really similar to Doc, but firespit has different priorities, and mario deals with being juggled easier. Keeping him offstage is better cuz of his very
bad recovery. Mario can be fast, so zone him away and control stage.

Ban dream Land.


ICs - Dtilt is your amazing best move to keep them out. Kill nana. then kill popo. Spamming dtilt probably very good at separating
and allowing to kill nana, and then throw-combo killing popo. Edgehog them.

Counter to Stadium.


MARTH vs MARTH - the Fthrow into Fsmash combo coverage dictates the matchup. marth juggles marth well. walk-off-stage drop-zone shieldbreaker as marth is recovering
edgeguards his recovery very well and closes out the stock.
 

thf24

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 23, 2015
Messages
27
Thanks for sharing! Only thing, I thought the thinking on Dream Land was shifting towards it not being so bad for us outside of matchups that live forever like Peach and Puff?
 

Barbeque

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
203
Location
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you ban dream land in many matchups cuz its the worst not because its necessarily bad. it can be good. the other ones are just more often more beneficial. also the platforms aren't as good on dream land as bf/yoshi's etc. you have to capitalize

also on falco when i said camp edge i meant near not on. and another tip during an away dash you have more powersheild frames in popping shield
 

Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
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405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
MARTH vs MARTH - the Fthrow into Fsmash combo coverage dictates the matchup.
good beginner notes, but what do you mean by this?

Fthrow Fsmash is DI dependent and no one gets caught by it at higher levels. you'd have to mix up Fthrow with Dthow to make it a DI mix up and read that they'd DI in the wrong direction. But this isn't the puff MU so honestly imo unless your throwing Marth off stage or in a corner F-throw is always better than D-throw.
 

Barbeque

Smash Journeyman
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not safe to assume missing the fthrow di never occurs even at higher level. being ready to punish it dictates the matchup because the error costs a stock. so di'ing it right/punishing them not di'ing it right is a pretty dominating role in the matchup. therefore doing it right kinda dictates the matchup is what i mean even when players are flawlessly avoiding it. coverage as in having the outcome of them DI'ing wrong covered.

puff downthrow fsmash is really good. but also around 90% you can fthrow WD forward Ftilt and she gets nicked by a tipper ftilt and usually dies at that %
 

Barbeque

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 4, 2007
Messages
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another thing i wanna say about fox matchup is that combo DI is pretty crucial and three key scenarios to make sure you di right that i have observed are

upthrow DI - you have to DI/SDI hard sideways/left or right (behind them is better) in order to avoid the upair follow up. not holding exactly sideways gets no DI.

SH dair - you can auto DI forward all the drill hits to get right behind them. DI away or none is bad cuz they get a free combo (drill,shine, upthrow, upairs). but you have to anticipate them appraching a sH drill

shine - if they shine you from stage to knock you off stage you can instant fast fall and grab the edge, and immediately upair back up stage and turn things around. if you miss that, they can rush down and shine you again and gimp you.

you can also crouch-cancel nair approach into grab with r+a. or just dash dance their approach into grab. or just run right through fox and get neutral on the other side.




and vs falco if the falco likes to double laser from the edge, anticipate it once falco lands on edge, counter them.
 
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Barbeque

Smash Journeyman
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fastfallers like falcon falco fox there are times when if you uptilt them on ground you can fsmash as they pass over top behind you and even tipper them and kill them

also some falcos do well on yoshi's, stadiums probably better
 
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Barbeque

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thank you. correction to make = falcos do good on yoshi's, as well as foxes some times. taking falco to stadium might be better, or BF. for fox running back BF perhaps, if they banned FD. and taking sheik to stadium is not a counterpick i think, yoshi's or BF with sheik.

and another technique to get used to is reacting to their tech on BF/plats with up airs specifically as upilts don't cover options as easily, or SH, wait for their get-up, falling upair (into more/uptilt/combo). on yoshi's positioning tipper off the top. on BF being in the center below the platform covers if they tech/roll left or right and you can react and tipper fsmash whichever way. but upair is a better follow up to them teching on plat from below it seems.
 
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Barbeque

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and another technique vs fox, if you are both dashdancing in neutral and fox is looking for the opprotunity you can close in by run in d-tilt, and sometimes it over extends and ends the DD war and allows an opening for you. foxes like to run away after particular exchanges (like escaping a punish), and running in dtilt can catch them.
and they can jump out of upthrow >step forward tipper fsmash around 80%
 
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Barbeque

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thank you. they are not flawless but they are definetly the general idea atleast.
 

Barbeque

Smash Journeyman
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^ valid point but certain machups you run certain stages atleast in the banning process and it can be important to not counter to where it benefits them
 

Barbeque

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 4, 2007
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i learned some stuff in a set with a dk

DK - Past 7% you can Fthrow techchase him and combo from. also edgehog his up+B as he recovers. and dair spiking him is good cuz his upB is bad. counter to FoD
 
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