Meta Match Up Discussion - Vs. Mario/Dr. Mario

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General Rules:

• No Flaming. Respect the opinions of others even if you disagree. Let's not get heated on an online forum for a family-friendly game. Failure to abide by this will result in the wrath of the law.
• Human error isn't something worth serious consideration. Discussions will assume both characters are being played to utmost potential.

The following are suggested subtopics of conversation:

• Character strengths and weaknesses
• How to effectively approach/deter approaches
• Off-stage game
• Positional play
• Punishes/punishing
• Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
• Suggested custom movesets
• Stage strengths and weaknesses
• Overall score [NOTE: THIS IS NOT AS IMPORTANT DURING THE FIRST ROUND OF DISCUSSION]

***For general questions not related to the current topic in this thread please use the General Match Up thread.***

This thread shall last for around 5 days, with the next thread opening up in about 2/3 days.

 

[meleebrawler]

For the most part, same song and dance as a lot of other matchups: we outspace him/beat him at distance, can wreak havoc if he gets close yada yada yada.

They're pretty close to each other in mobility, Mario has better natural weaving but Mewtwo has more options. While Mario is just fast enough to chase Mewtwo as he's landing, proper use of teleport among other things can easily allow Mewtwo to escape if Mario follows too closely.

Mewtwo can beat back Mario's approaches fairly easily with his superior range, especially since Mario's speed isn't exactly blinding, but the key thing to be aware of is NEVER SIT IN YOUR SHIELD AGAINST AN AIR APPROACH. You will most likely eat a tornado which is difficult to time the release on, and even if you do shield it properly Mario is now uncomfortably close and can go to town with his fast moves. So if Mario tries to attack from the air, either answer it with your own or retreat. Any trades you may make will likely be in your favour due to his low damage per hit.

Mario's strings generally don't last for very long on the lightweight Mewtwo unless he has access to Battlefield platforms, so go there at your own risk.

He doesn't have much in the way of an offstage game against Mewtwo either, most will instead wait at the ledge to try to punish your chosen getup option with his powerful usmash. On the other hand Mewtwo can chase Mario very low with his nair and snatch his second jump.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I thinj this MU is either even or slight disadvantage for mewtwo. The mobility specs are similar the range us in mewtwo's favor. But mario frame data is really tough to get around. This is definitely a winnable MU for mewtwo. Just gotta try and kerp Mario out.

 

[Nobie]

Up smash I find to be important in this matchup. On a very smart Mario, no you're probably not going to land it most of the time, but a lot of Marios I find rely heavily on nair and Mario Tornado to land safely. If they get too reliant on it an Up Smash can do some serious damage or even quickly end a stock as a punishment for their overconfidence.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Mario shouldn't be landing with dair since it doesn't protect the lower half of his body very well. It's also unsafe unless you cross up with it.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mario shouldn't be landing with dair since it doesn't protect the lower half of his body very well. It's also unsafe unless you cross up with it.

I'm pretty sure that's what Nobie meant when he said smart Marios wouldn't be getting usmashed that often. Still, it does bring to light that, despite popular belief to the contrary, that Mewtwo has a somewhat easier time landing compared to Mario.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

I'm pretty sure that's what Nobie meant when he said smart Marios wouldn't be getting usmashed that often. Still, it does bring to light that, despite popular belief to the contrary, that Mewtwo has a somewhat easier time landing compared to Mario.

Eh, Mario can still land easier than Mewtwo, but he's not that much better off.

 

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Am giving this a major bump so we can talk about Doctor Mario as well as recent happenings from last night's Top 8.

If you think Doc. warrants his own thread just let me know. I mostly putting the two together due to general match up inexperience on the part of most M2 mains.

 

[meleebrawler]

Doc is unsurprisingly much easier than Mario due to the huge gap in mobility and rage between him and Mewtwo, but there's still things to watch out for. If he gets in range, he's quite proficient at kicking Mewtwo in the face with his shorter-hop bairs, as well as still having Mario's superior frame data. If you approach him recklessly he'll either Super Jump Punch you or hit you with his even more painful headbutt. I'm not sure if his dthrow-fair works well on Mewtwo though. He's also more flexible in reflecting shadow balls with the lack of stall on his sheet.

So Doctor Mario isn't hard to beat if you play smart, but if you don't he can kill you more quickly and easily than Mario.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Mewtwo/Doc is quite a weird matchup indeed, but it's safe to say that Mewtwo beats us for several reasons:
- Neutral game is heavily shifted towards Mewtwo's favor, Mewtwo's very strong mobility mobility & shared traits with swordfighters via moves such as DownTilt on the ground & Fair/Bair in the air makes Mewtwo fairly difficult to approach for Doc: These traits are your main tools against Doc, and this is how you, as a Mewtwo player, should play the matchup.
- Shadow Ball pressures is at its least effective against Doc: His SH AC Cape is among the most effective & non commital ways to counter the different uses of Shadow Ball. Use it wisely, but a bit less than in your average matchup.
- Doc mains should aim for crossups with aerials & getting above Mewtwo. The area above Mewtwo is the most unorthodox for Mewtwo to cover against Doc, but if it gets repetitive, you'll surely be punished for it. Just acknowledge its effectiveness and if you're not finding a way on Mewtwo, you can always aim for this area, or better, bait it with a empty FH: Mewtwo's option to cover this are usually commital or will leave him with fewer options, and so, you may finally find your way on this legendary beast.
- Let's talk punish games on both side: This is what makes this matchup not so hopeless for Doc. I'm not one to say the advantage state makes an originally bad matchup good, and it isn't even the case here, but it's Doc's main saving grace here. Doc's throw combos absolutely murder Mewtwo. You may be aware of Doc's footstool combo out of Downthrow: Well, Mewtwo gets combo'd by it. This is why you have, as a Mewtwo player, be extremely wary of Doc's grab attempts at 0 to 15%, because if you don't, you may end up on the receiving end of a 70% guarranted combo. Same should be applied to higher %: at around 80%, be wary of Doc's grab attempts, because he can kill confirm you with his Dthrow to Fair, the range is about 15 to 20%.
- Mewtwo's punish game should be equally respected from Docs. One option that i find particularly poor in this matchup would be airdodging, as Mewtwo's combos tend to drag Doc offstage, and the risk/reward of airdodging to escape Mewtwo's string of Fairs is fairly negative: the risk of getting dair'd for it is too strong: Use the option wisely. I personally like to reply with Doc's own aerials, sometimes coupled with a jump, as Mewtwo may cover the aerial attack option with his outranging Fair.
- Edgeguarding is okay on both sides. Doc should attempts of two framing Mewtwo's teleport with Tornado by empty hopping in & offstage to pressure & maybe push Mewtwo into another option. His airspeed being great, it is possible but hard to catch his landing if he decides to go for a double jump landing back on stage. As a Doc player, be sure to mix your options when recovering, panic options just before a low upb back to the ledge can be quickly noticed & punished easily by the Mewtwo player. Even though it is rare, be wary of Mewtwo's DSmash, that may punish you not grabbing the ledge with UpB.
- RESPECT OUR OUT OF SHIELD GAME. It is very threatening against Mewtwo, who sometimes enjoys to crossup with his aerial, but will quickly feel calmed by the Frame 3 UpB Reversable On Shield that Doc has.

Overall, due to Mewtwo's dominance in neutral, this matchup is in his favor by a slight amount. However, he has to be wary of every single one of his options, as Doc's punish game is very threatening to Mewtwo's life. The Mewtwo player should lean towards a ranged, defensive gameplay, while Doc should try its best to break this wall by mixing up approaches as well as he can to hopefully get something going on Mewtwo, which is what Doc should be attempting while not giving up neutral.

This matchup is about 4:6, maybe 45/55 in the best of cases.
I think Smashville & DL64 should be Doc's go to stage against Mewtwo. Town&City should be avoided.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

40:60 is too much. Very few characters actually have that strong of an advantage over Doc and Mewtwo is not one of those characters.

I still think it's around 50:50 for both Mario: M2 and Doc: M2. There's a lot of weird intricacies that actually make this matchup not completely one-sided either way.

: The optimal way to play against Doc is to play defensively, because Doc's CQC options are scary and you do not want to be near him. However, unless he does something extremely unsafe, you have to go in and attempt to punish Doc in order to kill him. This is because:
1. Doc has godlike frame data, with respect to both startup and end lag. This means that it's not as easy to bait Doc into doing something unsafe. Most of the time, you have to outmaneuver him in order to punish him, which also involves trying to approach him cautiously.
2. Sheet reflects Shadowball. Not a big game changer and not an automatic win for Doc, but it dissuades Mewtwo from using Shadowball as much. It also means that Mewtwo cannot always snipe Doc from long range and has to go in. Sheet also helps Doc microspace since the lack of a stalling property allows Doc to Wavebounce/B-reverse, similar to how Mewtwo's Confusion works, but without the height gain.
3. Mewtwo does not have any incredibly disjointed aerials that are worth using in neutral. Fair is the closest thing and it is good enough to be respected by Doc, but it is nothing compared to disjointed aerials like Marth/Lucina/Corrin Fair, Ike/Cloud Nair, etc. Bair has range, but it's pretty slow and laggy. Doc can wall out Mewtwo similarly with Bair.

Going in on Doc is risky because any mistake will result in you getting hit by moves like:
Up-B OOS which can kill.
Up-Smash (OOS) which can also kill.
Bair, which can kill, and at worst, inflict 14% damage.
Grab -> Combos (Up Air, Back Air, Fair, Down-B). Also the occasional footstool combo listed above. Down-Throw Fair works but the range isn't that great. Jab 1-Up-B is a cute setup that also works at higher percents.
Down-B, which will just stop any momentum that a Mewtwo might have had.

When it comes to edgeguarding Doc, Mewtwo does not have some special advantage over Doc because of his sub par recovery. Smarter Doc players will conserve their options, know how to mix up their recovery, and be wary of how high they are relative to the platform. Don't just run off Nair/Fair because you expected the Doc to waste their double jump. If you guess right, free stock.

Edgeguarding Mewtwo is a bit harder, but Down-B is such a strong option offstage because the active hitboxes will intercept and usually beat out other moves. The last hit is pretty strong on the sides of the stage. On top of that, Doc can also semi-spike with Down-B, but this is not as reliable.

Mewtwo's KO potential is very good, as is Doc's, but the thing that Mewtwo has over Doc is his superior mobility. This is what Mewtwo needs to take advantage of when fighting against a Doc. Implement a hit and run game, don't throw out projectiles unless you are absolutely sure that Doc will get hit by it or be forced to air dodge and get punished, go in for punishes (and be very careful when going in) and quick bursts of damage.

Overall, while Mewtwo has better mobility, he doesn't really force Doc to approach as much as he wants to. Doc has safe buttons, but he has a similar problem forcing Mewtwo to approach him because of his sub par mobility and mediocre projectile. So both sides have to work hard to get hits safely.

Oh, and just for convenience, I don't mind if Mario and Doc are lumped together, but they are different enough to warrant different strategies.

EDIT: I want to talk about Mario as well, but I will do it later.

 

[Red-Villain]

The match-up plays different depending on which Mario, probably warrants a different thread, but;

Vs.

Sleazy plumber= Typical zoning playstyle; out-space him with glorious tail (U-tilt/U-smash on aerial approaches, F-tilt/D-tilt on grounded approaches); punish mis-spaced/unsafe moves as you normally would with .


Drug-addled quack= This MU needs to be played much more carefully. Footsies is the name of the game here- utilize the Genetic Pokemon's superior mobility and superior spacing tools. Avoid unsafe dash-attacks and F-airs on shield; U-special (especially out of shield and off-stage) is surprisingly quick and kills early. Unlike , Doc can secure a stock easily and has a variety of options which include the garden-variety U-smash. Be mindful to DI his D-throw correctly, as Doc loves to use it into footstool combos and 50/50's with his F-air. Edge-guard him with uncharged Shadow Ball (reflect if he uses Sheet) SHFF D-airs for the two-frame work well; well-positioned D-smash or F-smash are good options, given that Doc's U-special doesn't always snap the ledge; gimping his recovery is not recommended becuase, in spite of his reputation for having recovery, of the various mixups he can preform off-stage with his D-special, Side-special (stalling him in air, unlike 's) and the risk of his notorious U-special stage spike; but if you're smart about it, phasing into D-air, footstools, and RAR B-air strings are your best tools, given his poor vertical recovery and short range on U-air.