Meta Match Up Discussion - Vs. Diddy Kong

[---]

• No Flaming. Respect the opinions of others even if you disagree. Let's not get heated on an online forum for a family-friendly game. Failure to abide by this will result in the wrath of the law.
• Human error isn't something worth serious consideration. Discussions will assume both characters are being played to utmost potential.

The following are suggested subtopics of conversation:

• Character strengths and weaknesses
• How to effectively approach/deter approaches
• Off-stage game
• Positional play
• Punishes/punishing
• Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
• Suggested custom movesets
• Stage strengths and weaknesses
• Overall score [NOTE: THIS IS NOT AS IMPORTANT DURING THE FIRST ROUND OF DISCUSSION]

***For general questions not related to the current topic in this thread please use the General Match Up thread.***

This thread shall last for around 8-9 days, with the next thread opening up in about 5-7 days.

(Sorry been busy the past few days, will try to bring this back to a weekly schedule)

 

[meleebrawler]

Diddy can be an irritating opponent with his banana combos, but for a character who possesses quite a few frame data advantages over us it never feels overwhelming. At least, I've managed to beat or narrowly lose with every competent Diddy I've met.

The momentum of the match centers heavily around the banana. Whenever possible you should be trying to disrupt a Diddy trying to get a banana up, and if he does get one in hand focus all of your efforts on defence until it goes away, as an item toss is just too quick to stop consistently. Take the banana for yourself if it's convenient, then use the opportunity to get a charged ball since item tosses cut both ways, by that I mean Diddy will not be as keen on disrupting you due to the threat of your own banana combo.

When Diddy is fighting without his banana it's a spacing contest, just mind the range on his fair and dtilt and get in your own spacing hits while using dsmash and weak shadow balls to deter run-ins as usual. Beware the monkey flip outside spacing range though.

Diddy can juggle, but his damage per hit is rather low as well as his airspeed, making it relatively easier to land than most before taking significant damage. And, without landing a banana into a smash he generally takes quite a while before he can finish you off, giving Mewtwo a chance to accumulate some rage and score some early kills. Plus, as mentioned before the best time to attack Diddy is when he's trying to get a banana.

Overall it's a situation where Diddy will generally land more hits on average and can potentially set up into kills easily, but denying him of said setup, whether by theft or disruption, causes him to struggle greatly for kills giving Mewtwo time to catch up if need be.
So Mewtwo is actually going to be relatively aggressive to keep the banana setups from happening; the more Diddy gets to play with his banana, the greater his chances of victory. Don't let him.

 

[Smashifer]

Couldn't have said that better myself, meleebrawler.
Another thing to note is that a well place up-tilt can stop a Monkey Flip headed your way. I've done so many times before.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I am going to give my thoughts and observations on the MU, if I say something already said, sorry.

Mewtwo Pros:

Good Recovery
Large Tilts
Anti-Airs
Good Punish capabilities
Confusion/Disable
Gimping options

Diddy Kong Pros:

Banana
Dtilt
SH FF Fair
Grab Game
Kill set-ups


Mewtwo has some good options in this MU, however, he is outclassed. Diddy is too fast and the banana is too good for Mewtwo to handle. Banana trues into Dtilt, and if the Dtilt is blocked, Diddy is perfectly safe, if not, Mewtwo gets a lot of damage or the loss of a stock.

Mewtwo doesn't have a move fast enough to punish Dtilt, and Shield grab whiffs as Diddy is so low while using it.

Diddy can easily punish Mewtwo's lag with multiple moves, Dtilt, Banana, and Smashes.

Mewtwo does have his upsides though. His dtilt is long enough to keep Diddy out of SH FF Fair range and can actually punish him with Dtilt if you shield it.

Mewtwo's SB is killer if you catch him MF'ing to the Stage, and Bair/Nair are excellent at gimping Diddy.

Mewtwo has amazing Anti-airs, which are very troublesome for Diddy.

Confusion reflects banana and gives it's ownership to Mewtwo and Disable can stop Diddy's approach.

There is more, but I am just covering a few points, not a comprehensive list. So don't get mad at me for not including something.

60/40 Diddy's Favor. Maybe 55/45.

 

[meleebrawler]

I wouldn't say Mewtwo is outclassed, he is outsped in overall attack speed but not greatly, and his kill power easily outstrips the monkey even with the light weight.

Yes, when Diddy has a banana you pretty much can't commit to anything ever lest you get punished, but even the fastest methods of getting a banana in hand take some time to pull off, time that Diddy leaves himself open in. As long as you can stick relatively close to him and avoid his dtilt, he'll have a hard time getting his good strings going.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I wouldn't say Mewtwo is outclassed, he is outsped in overall attack speed but not greatly, and his kill power easily outstrips the monkey even with the light weight.

Yes, when Diddy has a banana you pretty much can't commit to anything ever lest you get punished, but even the fastest methods of getting a banana in hand take some time to pull off, time that Diddy leaves himself open in. As long as you can stick relatively close to him and avoid his dtilt, he'll have a hard time getting his good strings going.

Mewtwo will die to Dtilt-Usmash at 110%, possibly lower on account of Mewtwo's size. Dtilt-fsmash will probably kill Mewtwo at 80% and Uthrow-Uair will kill at 120-140% Plus, Diddy has a slightly easier time racking up damage.

There are ways to ensure a safe banana grab. Mainly don't be stupid and Z-Catch. Banana isn't punishable if done right, and to make matters worse, Mewtwo doesn't profit much from counter banana play.

Dtilt, Ftilt, Grab, MF will all be easy to pull off in close quarters, MF especially, because even if Mewtwo guesses right, Diddy is still safe.

With the inclusion of IPC, I think Mewtwo will have an exceedingly hard time.

I just think this MU is at least 60/40 Diddy. Mewtwo doesn't get enough in this MU as he does in others.

And this isn't Bias, I play Diddy and this is my thoughts looking at their strengths and weaknesses. Plus I lab Diddy almost as much as Mewtwo.

 

[meleebrawler]

I never did say the matchup was even, just that compared to most top tiers Mewtwo has more opportunities to catch up against Diddy because he has trouble sealing stocks without setups. Diddy may have a generally easier time doing stuff, but it's nothing that smart Mewtwo play can't overcome.

 

[Browny]

Dtilt to usmash is not a true combo at kill %s for diddy if you hold up and away and mash jump after being hit with the dtilt. Even if he manages to perfectly jump cancel the usmash to hit you, you are likely going to fall out of the second hit.

 

[swiftjay25]

Hey there, sorry I'm new to smashboards.

Diddy's Playstyle and advantages:
I have been maining Diddy since the game has been out and I believe that now he purely relies on spacing like meleebrawler said as well as punishes. Diddy not only has the banana to do this however, he also has moves like fair, dtilt and Popgun to really annoy his opponents not to mention good mixups like dtilt on shield to grab as well as Monkey flip for pressure on the opponent. I'm sure that most of you know that Diddy's banana is his key to getting easy kills, however due to his strong fair and bair he is also very strong when the opponent has an offstage disadvantage. Another problem that many people don't realise is that uthrow > uair can still true combo when the opponent fails to DI at at least 130% (varying on character weights and rage of course). There have been many times where I have taken stocks and games off of people due to this lack of knowledge.

Diddy's Weaknesses:
The main issue that I have when playing as Diddy is when people know how to counter the banana. This can be from shielding and jump grabbing it, to simply holding the banana in the neutral (especially against projectile-heavy characters). Another thing that we hate deeply is when people use that banana to confirm kills of their own. This is something that I don't see people do enough, where it can really ruin games for us.

Basic Matchup Info:
I feel that Diddy suffers most against 2 types of characters as long as they adapt to the situation well.
Sword Fighters (Disjointed hitboxes or Rosalina etc):
The reason for this is mainly due to the fact that they can space Diddy better that Diddy can space them. Primarily because Diddy lacks any extended hitbox, whenever he goes in for an attack, he is effecively putting himself at risk when he doesn't hold the banana, and like I said before, anyone can punish the banana.
Projectile Fighters (Link, Samus etc):
Similar to Sword Fighters, the issue that Diddy Kong has is being able to land a hit when projectiles are always flying at him. This can especially be a problem when Diddy has lost control of the stage as the match isn't going at his pace. He finds approaching difficult and because they have a better defensive game he is unable to force them to approach.

I hope this helps anyone who is having trouble with the matchup!

 

[LRodC]

This is a match up I've been personally struggling with a lot lately. I know it is considered one of Mewtwo's worst match ups and no top Mewtwo has ever taken a set from a top Diddy. However, I'm curious to know what the most optimal way to play it is. I typically try not to commit whenever Diddy has a banana, and I try to just guess his next option and space him out with my down tilt since it outranges his. Is playing campy with shadow balls and down tilt spacing the way to go? What are Mewtwo's best stages vs. Diddy Kong and vice versa? What are Mewtwo's best banana confirms?

 

[franniested]

Can we revive this thread and get a discussion going now that the meta has developed more for both of these characters