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Meta Match Up Discussion - Vs. Captain Falcon

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General Rules:

  • No Flaming. Respect the opinions of others even if you disagree. Let's not get heated on an online forum for a family-friendly game. Failure to abide by this will result in the wrath of the law.
  • Human error isn't something worth serious consideration. Discussions will assume both characters are being played to utmost potential.
The following are suggested subtopics of conversation:
  • Character strengths and weaknesses
  • How to effectively approach/deter approaches
  • Off-stage game
  • Positional play
  • Punishes/punishing
  • Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
  • Suggested custom movesets
  • Stage strengths and weaknesses
  • Overall score [NOTE: THIS IS NOT AS IMPORTANT DURING THE FIRST ROUND OF DISCUSSION]

***For general questions not related to the current topic in this thread please use the General Match Up thread.***

This thread shall last for around 8-9 days, with the next thread opening up in about 5-7 days.
 

meleebrawler

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Falcon is very fast and will likely cause significant damage with every victory he scores in neutral. Landing can be difficult as a result, and the speed can let him play outside of Mewtwo's spacing game waiting for an opportunity.

Dsmash, dtilt and shadow balls are key to keeping him honest with his approaches, and successful hits with the latter can lead to fairly lengthy combos. Falcon also has a difficult time landing himself leading to even more damage, and is very easy to gimp with nair if he has to falcon dive to the edge. He can't really go far to get Mewtwo offstage himself and will usually opt for stage control instead.

Because Falcon has few moves to approach with that are safe on shield, he will often dash grab. Avoid this by keeping relatively mobile, get close enough to poke at him. Capitalize heavily if you succeed, retreat if not to avoid his superior boxing.

It's a volatile matchup, as it tends to be with Falcon. Just stay patient, keep Falcon on his toes and make the most of every opportunity that presents itself.
 

Karsticles

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Does anyone else feel like this matchup is more manageable after the last patch?
 

meleebrawler

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Does anyone else feel like this matchup is more manageable after the last patch?
Don't really see why it'd be too different... does Mewtwo dishing out more shieldstun help noticeably?
Or is it perhaps you getting more offline experience and/or getting better at it?
 
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Karsticles

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Don't really see why it'd be too different... does Mewtwo dishing out more shieldstun help noticeably?
Or is it perhaps you getting more offline experience and/or getting better at it?
I think it's that Nair is safer on shield now (slightly), and Fair is now pretty safe. Shadow Ball causes more shieldstun (right?), so it's just harder for Falcon to run in, shield, and then go doo-doo on your face off of a grab. Those grabs still hurt, but he has to work harder to get one in. I don't feel like he's right on my tail constantly now. Maybe I just haven't played the right Falcon's, though.
 

meleebrawler

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I think it's that Nair is safer on shield now (slightly), and Fair is now pretty safe. Shadow Ball causes more shieldstun (right?), so it's just harder for Falcon to run in, shield, and then go doo-doo on your face off of a grab. Those grabs still hurt, but he has to work harder to get one in. I don't feel like he's right on my tail constantly now. Maybe I just haven't played the right Falcon's, though.
It just occurred to me that the electric nair may have also benefitted from reduced hitlag in addition to blockstun. Maybe that also makes it harder to punish.

Oh, and most likely not being able to punish dsmash on shield is a big help for Mewtwo as well.
 
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Sonicninja115

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It just occurred to me that the electric nair may have also benefitted from reduced hitlag in addition to blockstun. Maybe that also makes it harder to punish.

Oh, and most likely not being able to punish dsmash on shield is a big help for Mewtwo as well.
Form what I have seen, the Nair sends them into hitstun, like lucarios shieldbreak. But, it has very low shieldstun, making it unsafe if used incorrectly. Mainly a shieldgrab might be able to punish it or an OoS up-b.
 

meleebrawler

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Form what I have seen, the Nair sends them into hitstun, like lucarios shieldbreak. But, it has very low shieldstun, making it unsafe if used incorrectly. Mainly a shieldgrab might be able to punish it or an OoS up-b.
I don't think Falcon is keen on using his up b out of shield. Slow, no armour and sometimes even punishable on hit.

Obviously it's not like we can just go ham on shields but the chances of the opponent rolling, sidestepping or otherwise slipping away from a nair on shield are lower, giving us more control over the situation.
 

RANDOM_Stranger

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I dunno how I think about this matchup. I think Shadow ball is an important factor. Disable could be usefull dending on how the Falcon player is playing. Becaus he need to be close to you to deal any damage.
 

Click Klack

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You'll have to play pretty defensive. Shadow ball and Confusion are your friends here. Disable is questionable but it could have use at higher percents.
 
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Karsticles

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You'll have to play pretty defensive. Shadow ball and Confusion are your friends here. Disable is questionable but it could have use at higher percents.
I strongly dislike Confusion in this matchup. Raptor Punch is a natural counter to it. Dtilt is risky for the same reason. I think we need to be mobile and non-committal to survive.
 

Browny

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I hate raptor boost so much.

I feel like camping the ledge might be an OK option; falcon cant pressure you too much from there and he opens himself up to some hard punishes if he misses a dash grab since sending him offstage can be a free nair and potentially a gimp. Importantly though, falcon cant do dthrow-knee if he grabs you near the ledge since he needs the slide from the dashgrab (it doesnt unless he dthrows you during the slide, he has to be very quick).

If you dont want to die by that, just hang around there or on a platform ledge until you are out of the % range.
 
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ILOVESMASH

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MU is 70:30 in Falcon's favor or worse imo.

Mewtwo has to play extremely carefully in this MU. Any whiffed moves spell trouble for the M2 player, since Falcon's combo game and KO abilities are significantly stronger than Mewtwo's. Every dash grab Falcon lands equates to 1/3 of Mewtwo's stock being lost due to Falcon's strong combos out of it (he can either choose to juggle us w/ U-Air or hit us w/ knee, both of which can deal massive damage to M2). Falcon also edge guards us hard since his back air and knee have lingering frames, allowing them to intercept Mewtwo's recovery.

Mewtwo loses the neutral badly, which is bad since his disadvantageous state is awful in this MU. Falcon's frame 2 jab allows him to beat Mewtwo out in cqc, and his vastly superior dash grab and dash attack give him a much better mid range game. Mewtwo will hardly get a chance to charge shadow ball since falcon is so fast and can easily punish M2 for doing so. Tiny shadow balls also don't have much use in this MU since Falcon's Dash attack cancels them out. They still are good for trapping landings though.

Mewtwo should watch out for Falcon's F-Smash, which is basically safe on his shield due to his bottom tier traction and can catch his landings. Don't ever try punishing Falcon for charging one since Mewtwo's range and frame data are both very poor, meaning that you'll get hit by the F-Smash in most situations. Rage Raptor boost, Up Air, and Bair are also very scary for Mewtwo since they can all KO him very early.

Mewtwo's advantageous state against Falcon is decent, but tame compared to other characters like Doctor Mario and sheik. Our lack of grab combos means that we can only get a positional advantage against Falcon instead of comboing him to death like other characters can. D-tilt to fair is the only notable combo I can think of that works well on Falcon.

We edge guard Falcon pretty efficiently, but again, our edge guards are very tame in comparison to other characters. Bair is very efficient for edge guarding. Fair and Nair also work, but you need to space them precisely since falcon can punish whiffed nairs and fairs with knee.
 
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meleebrawler

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MU is 70:30 in Falcon's favor or worse imo.

Mewtwo has to play extremely carefully in this MU. Any whiffed moves spell trouble for the M2 player, since Falcon's combo game and KO abilities are significantly stronger than Mewtwo's. Every dash grab Falcon lands equates to 1/3 of Mewtwo's stock being lost since Falcon due to his strong combos out of it (he can either choose to juggle us w/ U-Air or hit us w/ knee, both of which can deal massive damage to M2). Falcon also edge guards us hard since his back air and knee have lingering frames, allowing them to intercept Mewtwo's recovery.

Mewtwo loses the neutral badly, which is bad since his disadvantageous state is awful in this MU. Falcon's frame 2 jab allows him to beat Mewtwo out in cqc, and his vastly superior dash grab and dash attack give him a much better mid range game. Mewtwo will hardly get a chance to charge shadow ball since falcon is so fast and can easily punish M2 for doing so. Tiny shadow balls also don't have much use in this MU since Falcon's Dash attack cancels them out. They still are good for trapping landings though.

Mewtwo should watch out for Falcon's F-Smash, which is basically safe on his shield due to his bottom tier traction and can catch his landings. Don't ever try punishing Falcon for charging one since Mewtwo's range and frame data are both very poor, meaning that you'll get hit by the F-Smash in most situations. Rage Raptor boost, Up Air, and Bair are also very scary for Mewtwo since they can all KO him very early.

Mewtwo's advantageous state against Falcon is decent, but tame compared to other characters like Doctor Mario and sheik. Our lack of grab combos means that we can only get a positional advantage against Falcon instead of comboing him to death like other characters can. D-tilt to fair is the only notable combo I can think of that works well on Falcon.

We edge guard Falcon pretty efficiently, but again, our edge guards are very tame in comparison to other characters. Bair is very efficient for edge guarding. Fair and Nair also work, but you need to space them precisely since falcon can punish whiffed nairs and fairs with knee.
Sorry, but if you're getting edgeguarded by Falcon offstage then you need to work on your recovery mixups. Mewtwo can easily stall out and counter with bair or teleport past him once he jumps off to get you. He can't go far to get you. I can't stress this enough: Mewtwo only really gets gimped if he makes a mistake.

If Falcon is in a position where he can get gimped by nair, then chances are he can't throw out an aerial without risk of dying due to how fast he falls, especially with the laggy knee. Even so, you can just throw a weak shadow ball to provoke a reaction first to avoid such a thing.

Mewtwo doesn't lose neutral that badly with the low-endlag dsmash which at least keeps Falcon from running in willy-nilly against Mewtwo and shadow balls, even the little ones, slow him down considerably, and if you think Mewtwo has bad range maybe you need to stop trying to grab so much. Falcon also doesn't really have many safe approaches either, with dash grab and bairs being the most reliable ones as dash attack is punishable, which simplifies your defence as you know what to look out for.
Try a disable as a whiff punish versus fsmash, or just throw a shadow ball if he's charging it.

Any positional advantage you get against Falcon with grabs is very rewarding, whether with fthrow (easily gets you a decent ball), uthrow (since Falcon resists vertical KOs keeping it fresh is less important and Falcon's landing options are bupkiss) or dthrow (chasing his landing if he jumps after is easy, or you can plant him on a platform), because he is even worse at landing than Mewtwo. At least he has various mobility mixups and airspeed to work with, plus nair is actually somewhat decent against a grounded Falcon as he lacks a quick anti-air. Still, if it's guaranteed strings you want, I can easily convert nearly 50% on a low percent Falcon off of dtilt with fair->uair->usmash + further juggles. It may not be as easy as Falcon juggles but it's just as rewarding.

All in all this matchup just isn't as difficult as someone like Fox, who not only has more varied and safe approaches but also can counter shadow ball. Falcon may be able to get in and cause significant damage fairly easily but a smart Mewtwo can minimize those openings. No worse than 60-40 Falcon's favour. With practice he becomes significantly easier.
 
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ILOVESMASH

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Sorry, but if you're getting edgeguarded by Falcon offstage then you need to work on your recovery mixups. Mewtwo can easily stall out and counter with bair or teleport past him once he jumps off to get you. He can't go far to get you. I can't stress this enough: Mewtwo only really gets gimped if he makes a mistake.
I talking about when Mewtwo is attempting to get to the ledge with Teleport. More often than not, the Mewtwo player will not snap onto the ledge immediately when he uses teleport unless he is a set distance away giving him several frames of vulnerability. Falcon can then stage spike M2 with Bair, knee, and even dair if timed correctly. This issue plagues Mewtwo in pretty much every MU.

If Falcon is in a position where he can get gimped by nair, then chances are he can't throw out an aerial without risk of dying due to how fast he falls, especially with the laggy knee. Even so, you can just throw a weak shadow ball to provoke a reaction first to avoid such a thing.
If Falcon saves his double jump, he can actually make it back. Weak shadow ball is definitely something I didn't think of and will incorporate into my gameplan against falcon.

Mewtwo doesn't lose neutral that badly with the low-endlag dsmash which at least keeps Falcon from running in willy-nilly against Mewtwo and shadow balls, even the little ones, slow him down considerably, and if you think Mewtwo has bad range maybe you need to stop trying to grab so much. Falcon also doesn't really have many safe approaches either, with dash grab and bairs being the most reliable ones as dash attack is punishable, which simplifies your defence as you know what to look out for.
Try a disable as a whiff punish versus fsmash, or just throw a shadow ball if he's charging it.
D-Smash is honestly not that good in this MU since its so slow. More often than not falcon will be able to get a dash grab in before the hitbox even appears at mid range. Also, when I was talking about Mewtwo's range, I was referring to his approaches (FAir, NAir, DAttack) which all have pretty poor range, especially compared to anything in Falcon's arsenal.

Falcon's Dash Grab and Bair as approaches are ridiculously Mewtwo due to his low traction and awful disadvantageous state vs falcon. Dash Attack isn't safe, but because of the insane amount of reward Falcon gets off of a dash grab, the mewtwo player will more often than not be forced to take counter measures against that move (Spotdodge or jab) which falcon can easily punish with his DA.

Any positional advantage you get against Falcon with grabs is very rewarding, whether with fthrow (easily gets you a decent ball), uthrow (since Falcon resists vertical KOs keeping it fresh is less important and Falcon's landing options are bupkiss) or dthrow (chasing his landing if he jumps after is easy, or you can plant him on a platform), because he is even worse at landing than Mewtwo. At least he has various mobility mixups and airspeed to work with, plus nair is actually somewhat decent against a grounded Falcon as he lacks a quick anti-air. Still, if it's guaranteed strings you want, I can easily convert nearly 50% on a low percent Falcon off of dtilt with fair->uair->usmash + further juggles. It may not be as easy as Falcon juggles but it's just as rewarding.
Falcon's Up Air alone invalidates most of Mewtwo's landing options besides Shadow ball just because of its range and speed. Mewtwo's juggle game against falcon in comparison is significantly worse because of Falcon's fast falling speed, allowing him to get on the ground quickly, and moves such as up Air have a considerable amount of startup and misleading range.

The combo you mentioned only works at a small window of percent (between 15 and 20) making its use mostly situational.
 

meleebrawler

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I talking about when Mewtwo is attempting to get to the ledge with Teleport. More often than not, the Mewtwo player will not snap onto the ledge immediately when he uses teleport unless he is a set distance away giving him several frames of vulnerability. Falcon can then stage spike M2 with Bair, knee, and even dair if timed correctly. This issue plagues Mewtwo in pretty much every MU.



If Falcon saves his double jump, he can actually make it back. Weak shadow ball is definitely something I didn't think of and will incorporate into my gameplan against falcon.



D-Smash is honestly not that good in this MU since its so slow. More often than not falcon will be able to get a dash grab in before the hitbox even appears at mid range. Also, when I was talking about Mewtwo's range, I was referring to his approaches (FAir, NAir, DAttack) which all have pretty poor range, especially compared to anything in Falcon's arsenal.

Falcon's Dash Grab and Bair as approaches are ridiculously Mewtwo due to his low traction and awful disadvantageous state vs falcon. Dash Attack isn't safe, but because of the insane amount of reward Falcon gets off of a dash grab, the mewtwo player will more often than not be forced to take counter measures against that move (Spotdodge or jab) which falcon can easily punish with his DA.



Falcon's Up Air alone invalidates most of Mewtwo's landing options besides Shadow ball just because of its range and speed. Mewtwo's juggle game against falcon in comparison is significantly worse because of Falcon's fast falling speed, allowing him to get on the ground quickly, and moves such as up Air have a considerable amount of startup and misleading range.

The combo you mentioned only works at a small window of percent (between 15 and 20) making its use mostly situational.
When you are double jumping back to the stage, you have the luxury of being able to attack as you're rising. This is something Ness does all the time, except Mewtwo has the luxury of using Confusion to both stall outside Falcon's range and orient himself to use the much wider bair. Go high first and watch what Falcon does. If he jumps at you as you near the ledge, teleport past him onto the stage. If not, throw out an attack if he's standing too close to the edge.

Using dsmash without getting it interrupted is just a matter of timing and practice. Eventually you'll find the ranges you can use it without getting punished, and subsequently slow Falcon down. Dtilt also works; at worst it'll clank with dash attack. Shadow Balls also do a good job of curbing short-hop bair usage; if Falcon jumps higher, don't just stand there and take it with your shield, move and get a good position. This is rather important for Mewtwo in general: move rather than block, like Greninja.

There's nothing poor about Mewtwo's DA range, not even when compared to Falcon's. It's fairly easy to use as a mid-range surprise if used sparingly. And while nair might not have much range, as I said earlier Falcon doesn't really have an answer faster than shield when used up close. He may not be able to directly challenge his juggling until he's close to the ground but he has more than enough tools to evade him instead with Confusion, good airspeed, a better than average airdodge and teleport. By comparison Falcon only has below average airspeed, the odd Falcon Kick and bair if you let him. If you're being mislead by uair's range that's on you, not Mewtwo. It's more than wide enough to space out anything Falcon might try to challenge with, ditto with bair. If he's instead the airdodging type, nair will get him and set up followups too with practice. Falcon's options are very limited in disadvantage, just stay close with Mewtwo's good dashing and react appropriately.
 

420quickscoper

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I talking about when Mewtwo is attempting to get to the ledge with Teleport. More often than not, the Mewtwo player will not snap onto the ledge immediately when he uses teleport unless he is a set distance away giving him several frames of vulnerability. Falcon can then stage spike M2 with Bair, knee, and even dair if timed correctly. This issue plagues Mewtwo in pretty much every MU.



If Falcon saves his double jump, he can actually make it back. Weak shadow ball is definitely something I didn't think of and will incorporate into my gameplan against falcon.



D-Smash is honestly not that good in this MU since its so slow. More often than not falcon will be able to get a dash grab in before the hitbox even appears at mid range. Also, when I was talking about Mewtwo's range, I was referring to his approaches (FAir, NAir, DAttack) which all have pretty poor range, especially compared to anything in Falcon's arsenal.

Falcon's Dash Grab and Bair as approaches are ridiculously Mewtwo due to his low traction and awful disadvantageous state vs falcon. Dash Attack isn't safe, but because of the insane amount of reward Falcon gets off of a dash grab, the mewtwo player will more often than not be forced to take counter measures against that move (Spotdodge or jab) which falcon can easily punish with his DA.





Falcon's Up Air alone invalidates most of Mewtwo's landing options besides Shadow ball just because of its range and speed. Mewtwo's juggle game against falcon in comparison is significantly worse because of Falcon's fast falling speed, allowing him to get on the ground quickly, and moves such as up Air have a considerable amount of startup and misleading range.

The combo you mentioned only works at a small window of percent (between 15 and 20) making its use mostly situational.
You sure about Falcon edge guarding us hard? Personally I find it much easier to gimp him than gimp us. If we mixup our recovery, then you shouldn't really be getting spiked by Falcon much. But Falcon's recovery is so predictable. I can't count how many times I've gimped a Falcon with that move. Unlike Falcon, we actually have recovery mixups.

Oh, and don't forget our amazing air dodge. We can really easily avoid attacks and then quickly recovery back. Simple as that. Just try not to be predictable with air dodging.

Personally I think that Down Smash is a decent bait tool. Falcon may be coming running in when he sees us try and use it from a distance.

Here's the thing. I think that you're mostly basing this off of how easy Mewtwo is to KO and juggle. Sure, that applies to a lot of matches, but if you only saying that he dies early and gets combo-ed, then you're not realizing Mewtwo's other tools. Mewtwo doesn't simply die at 0% and get combo-ed until he dies. He has other tools which can be effective in a lot of his matchups.
 
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