Match-up discussion #20: Fox

[Ishiey]

I wasn't saying that you didn't read the thread, but just that I thought you missed a few things.

Bair on all sides: I wish. 0-lag fair was mentioned before, that's also good to use in this matchup. In aerial combat, wolf has the overall advantage on the sides and fox on the bottom and top.

Offstage gimps: Yeah, fox's shine is amazing and in general outclasses wolfs for gimps. However, wolf can shine fox offstage for a free stock, as long as fox is below the ledge.

Killing: Absolutely correect.

I still feel this is definitely close enough to be neutral, but that could just be personal preference. Slight advantage makes sense, but 60:40 is not such a slight advantage...

 

[Vista]

Wolf absolutely wrecks Fox's recovery, Fox should never make it back at any % lol

Shine gets Wolf out of a lot of Fox's bnbs, and good Bair spacing keeps you safe.

Low weight allows you to get Fox offstage with Dsmash for the quick gimp at low %s

I'd say like 60-40 maybe. It's definitely in Wolf's favor

 

[ohaiduhg]

Wolf absolutely wrecks Fox's recovery, Fox should never make it back at any % lol

Shine gets Wolf out of a lot of Fox's bnbs, and good Bair spacing keeps you safe.

Low weight allows you to get Fox offstage with Dsmash for the quick gimp at low %s

I'd say like 60-40 maybe. It's definitely in Wolf's favor

And you base this off of? The same sense that anyone can gimp anyone at any time or is there a specifc thing Fox has that Wolf can counter. Fox has the Foxcopter with an extra jump present, Illusion and FlameDash/FireFox if from the bottom (being out of a safe wolf recovery range for the most part). Fox can also pause mid air with the reflector, and yeah like you said Wolf is a fast faller and very close ranged in the air.

Also, if you don't keep Dsmash fresh then you will lack a reliable KO move. and if you are hitting DSmash I'm almost certain Fox an Foxcopter back from that.

~Edit:^^ I'm saying ifyou are trying to connect it into a gimp not high percentage KO hit.

 

[Vista]

Laser stops double jump/fair, illusions, and firefox

Gimping above stage recovery > Below stage firefox > Easy shine spike

So from above stage, Fox can either aim illusion above you, at you, or below you (sweetspot). Illusion above can easily be punished in lag or by a SH laser if you predict it. At you can be lasered, or even jab > dsmashed. Sweetspot can be dsmashed.

Basically all of Fox's recovery options can be covered, and it all leads into a shine spike for a kill

 

[ohaiduhg]

Laser stops double jump/fair, illusions, and firefox

Gimping above stage recovery > Below stage firefox > Easy shine spike

So from above stage, Fox can either aim illusion above you, at you, or below you (sweetspot). Illusion above can easily be punished in lag or by a SH laser if you predict it. At you can be lasered, or even jab > dsmashed. Sweetspot can be dsmashed.

Basically all of Fox's recovery options can be covered, and it all leads into a shine spike for a kill

Yes, because Wolf has infinite jumps and Fox is slow and stiff and is always in perfect range for you to spike.

Shine Spiking with Wolf? He doesn't have the aerial maneuverability for it and would die trying to get back on the ledge on stages like Final Destination with the stage lip.

The only possible gimping Wolf could have would be Blastering then grabbing the edge, but I'm pretty sure Fox has mobility around it.

I can maybe believe some of what you said, but I get the feeling you are extremely underestimating Fox's recovery skills.

 

[Vista]

What aerial maneuverability do you need? Anywhere that Fox can recover from, you can shinespike him.

I'm not underestimating Fox's recovery one bit.

 

[smashkng]

Spiking with dair when Fox use Fire Fox shouldn't be hard either. Wolf doesn't lack kill moves. His killers are weak when he use them to rack up damage (which has good function of it because of their speed), otherwise they are not bad.

Both have poor recovery. Wolf lacks in accuracy while Fox is highly vulnerable to gimping.

 

[Vista]

I spam Dsmash to no end, mainly cause it's so good to get them offstage and to setup for stuff. Even weakened it's still got tight knockback.

As for Dairing Fox, Dair has too much winddown in most cases, bringing you too far down to recover. Shine is a lot quicker.

 

[smashkng]

I spam Dsmash to no end, mainly cause it's so good to get them offstage and to setup for stuff. Even weakened it's still got tight knockback.

As for Dairing Fox, Dair has too much winddown in most cases, bringing you too far down to recover. Shine is a lot quicker.

Not dangerous if close to the edge and waiting until he approach then dair spiking. Wolf is then able to get back to the stage. Back air is other option to intercept.

 

[Ishiey]

Vista is right, everyone else is wrong.

Shine Spiking with Wolf? He doesn't have the aerial maneuverability for it and would die trying to get back on the ledge on stages like Final Destination with the stage lip.

Wrong. Wolf has great horizontal aerial maneuverability, unlike the other two spacies. His vertical abilities are average, but that's less important here. It sounds more like you're overestimating fox, to be honest.

Try it out if you don't believe me, seriously. Choose wolf, hit a fox offstage, shine them below the ledge, and upB to the lip. Instant stock for you.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Vista is right, everyone else is wrong.

Me too? But I'm a bike theif.

Fox is vulnerable to shine. Duh. He also lacks K'o potential. But the Hot/cold theory applies to him. When the fox main is freaked out, he plays worse considerably. Thats why early mind games and shine spikes are some of your best options. Mixing things up is easy with wolf because he has numerous follow ups.

 

[Ishiey]

Me too? But I'm a bike theif.

Of course not, if you have such keen bike-stealing instincts it would be a fallacy to claim your information to be a lie I was referring to everyone in the posts after yours.

But this isn't really sounding like a matchup discussion anymore (for example, the player getting freaked out isn't relevant to a matchup, but a character having difficulty regaining momentum is), and whatever is being discussed is repetitive, or at least feels that way. Before posting something though, make sure you have your facts straight. For example, wolf's shine being an easy gimp on fox and fox's usmash killing wolf at around upper 90s >_>

 

[ohaiduhg]

The Wolf bias is overwhelming. I'm done.

 

[Turbo Ether]

The Wolf bias is overwhelming.

Huh? I don't see any Wolf players posting misinformation or overrating Wolf's tools in this matchup at all. Wtf?

 

[Dv8tor]

Truly Ishiey is right, DarkWater is the only one overestimating, even my Fox buddy agrees with 55/45 Wolf.

 

[Vista]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5mRm1rOX7s&feature=channel_page

If anyone doesn't believe me on the gimps lol. I messed up on the last stock, I tried to Up B suicide him (THE VISTA) but misspaced it. Don't judge the playstyle it's friendlies mangggggg

Also I seriously think the matchup is 60-40, I found jumpshines limit Fox soooo much. Wolf's range and Dsmash give you so much control over Fox

 

[Emo^Wolf]

Yes, because Wolf has infinite jumps and Fox is slow and stiff and is always in perfect range for you to spike.

Shine Spiking with Wolf? He doesn't have the aerial maneuverability for it and would die trying to get back on the ledge on stages like Final Destination with the stage lip.

The only possible gimping Wolf could have would be Blastering then grabbing the edge, but I'm pretty sure Fox has mobility around it.

I can maybe believe some of what you said, but I get the feeling you are extremely underestimating Fox's recovery skills.

what i realize when fighting a fox is that you can edge hog him easy with any charecter. esither edgehog to killl or edgehog to an attack. but the thing is i cant get a fast edge hog with wolf. its reallly weired it works with every other charecter but wolf i just fall offf. can anyone tell me how to grab the edge quick like snake or any other charecters. i know its possible cuz i saw a wolf user jj. wolf do it. but ive tryed and i cant get the edgehog downn. someoneee let me know how to do it

 

[Vista]

Fastfall when you run off

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

The Wolf bias is overwhelming. I'm done.

Post Count +1?

Wolf beats Fawks.

See, I contributed.

:sniper:

 

[Darxmarth23]

Of course not, if you have such keen bike-stealing instincts it would be a fallacy to claim your information to be a lie I was referring to everyone in the posts after yours.

Glad to hear it.


I would suggest keeping fox away from his main killing position, such as.....

The ground.

Juggles traps? I'm just experimenting with this theory. But fox being a ridiculously fast faller may be something to consider when you are playing defensively.

 

[Emo^Wolf]

Fastfall when you run off

liike snakes or howw. i really dont know how to get it. do you mind being alitle moree specific with more details thnks

 

[Vista]

1. Run off the ledge
2. Press down to fastfall
3. Press back to grab the ledge
4. ???
5. PROFIT!

 

[castorpollux]

In order to speedhug like i do (its faster and much more reliable than the normal hugging method) run to the edge and when u reach there press diagonally down away from the stage.