Mumbo
Smash Journeyman
Marth This is the second of a series of threads, each dedicated to a single matchup, covering all 41(+) matchups. These threads are going to be a collaboration, so PLEASE give me your thoughts and opinions. Post your videos here, even if you lose. Post your preferred stages, even if people think otherwise. Post your tips, even if you think you aren't the best player.
I. Videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoQRvbMzoPI Dr Robotnik vs Chip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM7hsZlByUs Dr Robotnik vs Chip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5kbL-HmX9g Spire_Fan vs Denec
II. Overview:
Dolphin Slash = Marth's Up-b/recovery; Dancing Blade = Marth's Side-b; Counter = Marth's Down-b
Marth's Strengths:
- Great range and disjoints
- Excellent grab range
- Kills off the side extremely fast and has reliable combos into it
- Marth can wall Yoshi out with Fairs really easily
- Marth has a chain grab on Yoshi that leads to a tipper if you don't DI down and away or up and into marth
- Gets edgeguarded easily
- If he misses an L cancel, the lag is more than enough to get in
- If he doesn't kill early, he'll only have the option of fishing with an fsmash and Yoshi lives forever
- Yoshi wants to kill Marth mostly with edgeguards, though sometimes off the top with Upair or Upsmash, and occasionally off the side with Downsmash or Forwardsmash
- Egglay outranges Marth's sword
- Be careful approaching with Eggroll
- Forward Smash Clanks
- Counter comes out fast, lasts long, and beats eggroll pretty handily
- Marth can grab it easily
- In edge guarding, When you knock marth off, throw eggs at him. This will cause him to try to dodge them or panic. If you can get one on him low, some marths will panic recover, missing the sweetspot and open for a free downsmash. Be careful not to save him if he's not coming back anyways.
- Know your percents! When does Double Jump armor break?
- Fsmash, tipped: 7%.
- Fsmash, sourspot: 50%
- Reverse Dolphin Slash, tipped, initial hitbox: 27%
- Reverse Dolphin Slash, sourspot, initial hitbox: 79%
- Fair, tipped: 81%
- Dair, tipped: 84%
- Uncharged Shield Breaker, tipped: 86%
- Bair, tipped: 99%
- Dtilt, tipped: 188%
Neutral Game:
- With good spacing, use your Forwardsmash pullback to avoid Marth's sword and punish
- baiting game is important
- get marth to swing at you in the air (fair) and grab him before he hits the ground. <-- this is key
- Eggroll is useful in every matchup because it's a mobility tool and almost nobody outside of Yoshi players understands it. If you're just outside of his Fsmash range, pop eggroll towards marth, but then roll away once you hit the ground and exit immediately. This could bait out almost anything. If your % is anywhere where a tipper will kill, he'll whiff Fsmash and you get a free grab.
- Downtilt is fantastic for spacing marth away and a downtilt to an off stage marth is death if you grab the ledge.
- When marth Fsmashes, his hurtbox extends forward, you can get some nasty grabs/dtilts/dsmashes because of thathttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVcSy-OoBMA#t=273
- On stage egg pressure is fantastic (in any matchup really) throwing eggs and grabbing him when he shields. A trick I will mention multiple times is:
- First learn all the angles of eggthrow from the ground and Jumping and learn how to pace them
- Throw an egg at them high (try to land it on or behind them or in front of them and make sure you know where it's gunna land
- get close to them
- this makes the game camera zoom in and the egg is no longer visible
- Have fun watching your opponent panic
- Marth is a great weight for rising double aerials (gifs needed)
- 40-50% = Rising Upair -> non-fastfall Downair (huge % and if you land on a platform you can follow up with an upsmash)
- 45-55% = Rising Upair -> Nair
- 50-60% = Rising Upair -> Upair (which can kill if you hit the first upair pretty high above the stage)
- Downthrow is excellent for setting up rising double aerials
- Down-B Marth's that overextend combos upward with upair (good Marths will catch on and bait it so watch out)
- Downsmash Sends Marth horizontally
- Downthrow to Upsmash until ~50% and then Upairs become the safer option.
- Backairs are good for when you Grab Parry him or when You're both in the air
- DI everything UP&AWAY except for ForwardSmash
- DI Fthrow chaingrab down and away to avoid Fsmash followup(or up and twards marth to take a non-tipper Fsmash [Safer])
- DI Backthrow down and away to avoid Fsmash(or up and away and just jump)
- DI Fsmash up and in
- Be very careful DIing throws; If on the right side of the stage, it's safer to DI right as getting thrown left and hit by a Forwardsmash is far less dangerous than DIing left, getting thrown right and getting hit by a Forwardsmash
- Believe it or not, the goal of keeping stocks in this MU is to eat damage:
- When you're above the damage threshold that marth can combo, all he can do to kill you is an Fsmash or a very high percent Ftilt or Fair
- Yoshi's survivability is ******** to begin with, factor in the marth factor and you'll live to very high %s
- As a general "any-matchup" rule, if you're getting comboed, Don't panic and just focus on NOT DYING. Also smash Di is Yoshi's best friend. If you focus on not getting hit with that kill move (or taking a lesser version like a non tipper), You can survive longer because you won't be comboed like that again in that stock and the opponent has to find a way to kill you with a raw kill move or a more precise setup.
- Crouch Cancel Downtilt Marths who don't sweetspot the ledge
- Throw eggs. Once Marth loses his horizontal momentum, it's very difficult for him to come back to the stage
- Dolphin Slash doesn't break armor at low %s, double jump instant edgehogging is very effective against a Marth trying to sweetspot
- Marth Killer - PM Edition: On stages with curved ledges (Yoshi story, Yoshi island, Lylat) you can shield on the ledge and Nair when his UpB pushes you off https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVcSy-OoBMA#t=265
- Forward Smash, especially tippers, break armor relatively early. After breaking armor Marth can downtilt and forward tilt your eggroll attempts and you are dead. Be wary of recovering low
- Eggroll -> airdodge, but be careful of Marth's quick aerials
- Marth's aerials don't break armor until really high %s. Recovering high is almost always the best option.
- Use eggroll and wavebouncing to weave around Marth's upairs and uptilts
- Recovering with an attack is usually a bad idea because Marth has great disjoints and they gimp Yoshi's without jumps
Ultimately, Stage striking, banning, and Counterpicking comes down to personal preference. People will also have conflicting opinions as to which stages are better or worse for certain matchups. Use this as a rough baseline, understand the reasons why each stage may help hurt a particular character, and learn what your opponent might want to ban/counterpick against you. Different Tournaments use different stage lists with different sets of starters and different amounts of stage bans.
Counterpicks:
- Dreamland
- +++Counterpick
- + Yoshi lives forever
- + Marth's sword doesn't reach through the platforms on any attack except for Utilt, which barely reaches
- + Many of Yoshi's kills are edgeguards, so blastzones help yoshi
- + Platforms help Yoshi's mobility
- Dracula's Castle
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- +Counterpick
- Low ceiling plus big stage means decent Yoshi stage
- Marth's combo game on this stage is strong but if you stay alive to high % he's no nothing to kill you with
- Skyworld
- +++Counterpick
- Bad stage suprisingly good for Yoshi in alot of matchups
- Marth can only recover to the ledge so the clouds hanging over are useless to him
- IF he recovers to the clouds, the lag on UpB is more than enough to punish hard
- Clouds collision detection are misleading (missed techs = free punishes)
- Yoshi has a strong combo game on this stage
- Final Destination
- +Counterpick/Even
- Battle of the neutral games, if yours is more consistent, smarter and stronger, You'll wreck face.
- Smashville
- +Counterpick/Even
- I don't like this stage much but it's alright for the matchup
- Side Blast zones slightly closer than PS2, Killing off the top is easy peasy
- Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
- +Counterpick
- Green Hill Zone
- +Counterpick/Even
- Battlefield
- Even
- Very good starting/Neutral stage
- be wary of the Fsmashes/Utilts through platforms
- Yoshi's Story
- Even/Strike
- low ceiling and close blast zones makes this an even match. Plus marth can't go too low to recover so eggs destroy him off stage
- be wary of Fsmashes covering options on platforms (normal getup to shield/jump will be safe most of the time)
- WarioWare
- - Ban
- - Marth's sword reaches through the platforms
- - Marth kills very early off the side blastzones
- Fountain of Dreams
- - Ban
- - Marth's sword reaches through the platforms, especially when they lower
- - Relatively close side blastzones give Marth great horizontal kill power
- - Relatively high ceiling hurts Yoshi's vertical kill power
- Lylat Cruise
- - Ban
- - Platforms help Marth control the stage
Don't:
- approach with DJC aerials without thinking as Marth can gimp you very easily
- Don't approach with DJC aerials period Marth has disjoints up the wahzoo, you WILL die
- Challenge Marth's recovery with an unsafe rising aerial
- Unless he's too far away to get back with an UpB, then you can go out on him or if you're there to follow up on an egg
Tricks:
- Egglay a dashdancing Marth
- When over a utiltiing marth, use the delay of DJ and Down B to punish, the extra delay given by the DJ is more than enough to force him and catch him
Tips:
- Understand Marth's Forwardsmash range
- Understand that Marth has a bubble around him no matter where he is
- Know how to Grab Parry and know that if you grab parry and he's behind you, You can Backair to push him back (he'll shield) then he'll try to grab you again and you can Parry again and rinse and repeat until you get a hit or you push him off the stage or he goes for something else
- Challenging Marth offstage is much safer (though not that safe)
- Marth's recovery can be CC-ed, Roy's cannot
- Roy is heavier and can be comboed much harder
- obvious spacing difference between the two tipper spacing vs hilt spacing
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TomBoComBo
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Mumbo
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InfinityCollision
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Great job so far on these 2 posts, they're very helpful for players like me who don't get to face people too often. This way I can plan things out in my head before a match.
