Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
It appears that you are using ad block :'(
Hey, we get it. However this website is run by and for the community... and it needs ads in order to keep running.
Please disable your adblock on Smashboards, or go premium to hide all advertisements and this notice. Alternatively, this ad may have just failed to load. Woops!
I've been practicing with my partner recently (Fox player) and I've been having him DI my fthrow away down and away and to tech as randomly as possible.
I actually have a very good reaction time and it all....feels react-able. I would drop the techchase on occasion but for the most part, it worked extremely well.
I simply fthrow, WD to where they land, first look for tech in place (fastest option) then for tech rolls.
If they miss tech, I DO NOT jab because they can SDI the jab to avoid a jab reset, so instead I stand there and if they getup attack, I shield on reaction.
I like the dthrow techchase at earlier percents, but only when I'm near the edge, so I don't have to cover as many options. Although this idea seems alright, why would you say it's better than uthrow chaingrab/platform techchase for you? is it just a playstyle thing? I find the above two options to be more optimal in their respective situations.
I like the dthrow techchase at earlier percents, but only when I'm near the edge, so I don't have to cover as many options. Although this idea seems alright, why would you say it's better than uthrow chaingrab/platform techchase for you? is it just a playstyle thing? I find the above two options to be more optimal in their respective situations.
Until ~50%, I think Marth's platform techchase game is really weak.
With double stick DI from the spacie, Marth needs to waveland on platform and grab them. However, if they tech in place instead, you do not have time to grab and you will be shined.....
So you can't cover all of their options without some sort of read.
If I was playing on battlefield for example, I would CG at the center of the stage but unless they were around 50-60%, I would go for a fthrow/dthrow (fthrow is better, but dthrow is good if it throws them into the corner) if they could have DI'd onto a platform.
With good reactions, the followup on the fthrow techchase is guaranteed while I don't believe the platform techchase is.
After some labbing, I discovered that tech chasing on reaction requires (obviously) using strictly reactive inputs. This means committing to something like a forward or backward jump, or entering run before you react to their tech option is out of the question. Even something like dashing cuts down our available reactions.
Preemptive movements in order to set up for a tech chase are what we need, and what I've been working with the most is simply walking forward. From there, you end up with reaction options like this:
(26%)
Setup | Tech/Position | Reaction
Walk Forward | Toward Marth (Behind) | Turnaround U-tilt
Walk Forward | In place | U-tilt
Walk Forward | Missed | U-tilt
Walk Forward | Away | Dash to Run Cancel D-tilt
The U-tilts you land can be followed up with by more U-tilts, or regrabs if you need. On stages with platforms, this will usually place them on a platform at an appropriate percent. If not, you can regarb and redo the tech chase OR up-throw. Things get a bit different if they DI your throw away. Instead of going for D-tilt on tech in place/missed tech, you can D-tilt or F-smash. You can also get an F-smash if they tech behind you at mid-percents, which can take stocks.
As for other preemptive movements, you can work with wavedash and end up with something like this:
(26%)
Setup | Tech/Position | Reaction
Wavedash Forward | Toward Marth (Behind) | Dash Attack or Rising F-air
Wavedash Forward | In place | U-tilt
Wavedash Forward | Missed | U-tilt
Wavedash Forward | Away | Dash Attack, Run Cancel F-smash, or SHFFL N-air/F-air
The benefit here is that the wavedash will better cover DI away, allowing you to secure a U-tilt regardless, but with the added risk that your dash attacks to cover tech away and behind might fail to an Amsah Tech, leaving you open for 10 frames longer than U-tilt. Dash attack does come with the benefit of allowing a U-tilt follow-up. Tech chasing with the aerials is safer to return to neutral from whether or not you hit your target, however it's more difficult to land the hit as precisely, and they don't offer much for guaranteed followups.
Setup | Tech/Position | Reaction
Walk Forward | Toward Marth (Behind) | Turnaround U-tilt
Walk Forward | In place | U-tilt
Walk Forward | Missed | U-tilt
Walk Forward | Away | Dash to Run Cancel D-tilt
Wavedash Forward | Toward Marth (Behind) | Dash Attack or Rising F-air
Wavedash Forward | In place | U-tilt
Wavedash Forward | Missed | U-tilt
Wavedash Forward | Away | Dash Attack, Run Cancel F-smash, or SHFFL N-air/F-air
After some labbing, I discovered that tech chasing on reaction requires (obviously) using strictly reactive inputs. This means committing to something like a forward or backward jump, or entering run before you react to their tech option is out of the question. Even something like dashing cuts down our available reactions.
Preemptive movements in order to set up for a tech chase are what we need, and what I've been working with the most is simply walking forward. From there, you end up with reaction options like this:
(26%)
Setup | Tech/Position | Reaction
Walk Forward | Toward Marth (Behind) | Turnaround U-tilt
Walk Forward | In place | U-tilt
Walk Forward | Missed | U-tilt
Walk Forward | Away | Dash to Run Cancel D-tilt
The U-tilts you land can be followed up with by more U-tilts, or regrabs if you need. On stages with platforms, this will usually place them on a platform at an appropriate percent. If not, you can regarb and redo the tech chase OR up-throw. Things get a bit different if they DI your throw away. Instead of going for D-tilt on tech in place/missed tech, you can D-tilt or F-smash. You can also get an F-smash if they tech behind you at mid-percents, which can take stocks.
As for other preemptive movements, you can work with wavedash and end up with something like this:
(26%)
Setup | Tech/Position | Reaction
Wavedash Forward | Toward Marth (Behind) | Dash Attack or Rising F-air
Wavedash Forward | In place | U-tilt
Wavedash Forward | Missed | U-tilt
Wavedash Forward | Away | Dash Attack, Run Cancel F-smash, or SHFFL N-air/F-air
The benefit here is that the wavedash will better cover DI away, allowing you to secure a U-tilt regardless, but with the added risk that your dash attacks to cover tech away and behind might fail to an Amsah Tech, leaving you open for 10 frames longer than U-tilt. Dash attack does come with the benefit of allowing a U-tilt follow-up. Tech chasing with the aerials is safer to return to neutral from whether or not you hit your target, however it's more difficult to land the hit as precisely, and they don't offer much for guaranteed followups.
Setup | Tech/Position | Reaction
Walk Forward | Toward Marth (Behind) | Turnaround U-tilt
Walk Forward | In place | U-tilt
Walk Forward | Missed | U-tilt
Walk Forward | Away | Dash to Run Cancel D-tilt
Wavedash Forward | Toward Marth (Behind) | Dash Attack or Rising F-air
Wavedash Forward | In place | U-tilt
Wavedash Forward | Missed | U-tilt
Wavedash Forward | Away | Dash Attack, Run Cancel F-smash, or SHFFL N-air/F-air
Surely there are instances in which simply grabbing them is a valid choice.....
I've been testing too, and I'm sure that with a reaction to the tech option in around 17/18 frames, you can WD forward from the fthrow and run to JC grab them on DI down + away and tech away.
By the way, there is a percent at which following up from fthrow against DI down and away + tech away is IMPOSSIBLE. (might be possible, certainly not on reaction)
I'll do some testing but I think it's around 45%, which is fine since we can opt for uthrow then with little worry of double stick DI on platforms since we will have frames to cover the options.
By the way, there is a percent at which following up from fthrow against DI down and away + tech away is IMPOSSIBLE. (might be possible, certainly not on reaction)
I'll do some testing but I think it's around 45%, which is fine since we can opt for uthrow then with little worry of double stick DI on platforms since we will have frames to cover the options.
Surely there are instances in which simply grabbing them is a valid choice.....
I've been testing too, and I'm sure that with a reaction to the tech option in around 17/18 frames, you can WD forward from the fthrow and run to JC grab them on DI down + away and tech away.
Dthrow turnaround dtilt (m2k trap, ask if you don't know what it is) is good in corners and works on those characters.
I do not think you can followup dthrow with grab against Falcon because of his weight. He can jab you before you can grab him. (Test it out, I might be wrong)
It's good IN CORNERS.
The reason it's good in corners is because DI down away + Tech away can be punished in corners while they cannot but punished anywhere else from dthrow.
I only do dash 1 frame then WD, it's optimal.
It's difficult but until around 45% (needs more testing), dash attack does work as A_Reverie said even when grab might not.
But that's fine because dash attack can only ASDI down at really low percents where you would just grab anyway.
After the percent where they can get out, you pretty much just want to throw them in corners (and techchase on reaction easily) or throw them on platform and utilt/waveland on grab.
No, your information was VERY useful since it let me find that dash attack can actually connect when grab won't!
A sort of flowchart I'm having in my head is at low percents when you can followup all options with grab, simply fthrow them (or throw them in corner if possible) WD forward and cover all options on reaction.
But at 25-32% I would start using dash attack to cover tech rolls since grab doesn't at this point.
And then at around 50% I would just uthrow them and platform techchase (without having to worry about double stick DI by this point)
OR continue to techchase them in the corner IF POSSIBLE.
But obviously, if I was at center stage I would simply CG while I can and if they techrolled near ledge, I would mixup between fthrow and uthrow at the ledge to get a nice DI trap.
(If they DI in fthrow they get dtilted at ledge)
(If they DI out uthrow they get NTSC daired or gimped)
xXadevs2000Xx
One reason I'm liking U-tilt is because when spaced correctly, it can tipper and net you a grab. It also can keep you from getting shined on their get-up.
xXadevs2000Xx
One reason I'm liking U-tilt is because when spaced correctly, it can tipper and net you a grab. It also can keep you from getting shined on their get-up.
Below that percentage range it's probably best to go for regrabs. The issue with Marth's F-throw is that it does so little damage that building percent with it gets difficult. With a pummel you're still only netting ~4-7% total, so continuing to F-throw past 20-30% doesn't seem like a great idea to me. I would only use it to get to a better damage range and open up other options.
Below that percentage range it's probably best to go for regrabs. The issue with Marth's F-throw is that it does so little damage that building percent with it gets difficult. With a pummel you're still only netting ~4-7% total, so continuing to F-throw past 20-30% doesn't seem like a great idea to me. I would only use it to get to a better damage range and open up other options.
Dthrow turnaround dtilt (m2k trap, ask if you don't know what it is) is good in corners and works on those characters.
I do not think you can followup dthrow with grab against Falcon because of his weight. He can jab you before you can grab him. (Test it out, I might be wrong)
It's good IN CORNERS.
The reason it's good in corners is because DI down away + Tech away can be punished in corners while they cannot but punished anywhere else from dthrow.
i actually haven't heard of the m2k trap but im guessing that it has something to do with throwing someone into a corner, dtilting for the tech in place/no tech, and then covering the remaining option(s) with a re-grab or something.
i actually haven't heard of the m2k trap but im guessing that it has something to do with throwing someone into a corner, dtilting for the tech in place/no tech, and then covering the remaining option(s) with a re-grab or something.
Yeah, you dthrow then turnaround dtilt immediately.
You want the dtilt to hit tech in place and missed tech.
Then, if they tech rolled in instead you simply turnaround grab and you have the frames to do it.
It covers tech in place, no tech and tech in. Only tech it doesn't cover is tech away... which obviously puts the opponent in a very bad position.
HOWEVER, they can DI out of it. Keep that in mind.
