Marth dittos

[Gearitz]

Can anyone give me advice on how to broaden the gap of stocks? I can out play them most of the time but how do I approach better? How can I counter them better? What can I do to play a better Marth than other Marths?

EDIT: I know this is very broad topic but any general tips and some scenarios that come up most often would help. Thank you

 

[Twinkles]

Take advantage of your stock lead by realizing that what the opponent needs/wants to do to close a gap, and dancing around it while trying to poke and potentially get a grab/stray hit that will lead into a meaty punish.

With Marth, I think approaching better just means having a better dash-dance. Get more comfortable dashing through your opponent, hitting every dash-dance length when you need to, and being as comfortable as possible with options out of your dash-dance (sh aerials, pivots, WD -> moves, run -> moves, etc.) This also applies to "countering" other Marth's.

Two basic things every player can improve on are strategy (neutral strategy, what do when you're ahead/behind, general game sense, etc.) and mechanics (tech skill, spacing, etc.), so just think/practice more of those, think about how you want to develop your marth and go from there.

EDIT: Bad Marths get destroyed by fthrow -> fsmash at any %. When they learn to DI down + away, mix in uthrow -> punish their attempts to get down.

 

[Sutekh]

At 0% you can get a couple regrabs from fthrow. If they don't DI or DI towards you, you can chain fthrow to the edge and fsmash for the kill or at least an edgeguard situation. It's super scrubby but you can take easy games from people who aren't familiar with the ditto.

 

[Gearitz]

What's the best way to edgeguard in a Marth ditto? I usually sh bair to ledge stall but is there anything that's better?

 

[Xxaz_v]

Marth has to either up-b back onto the stage or grab the ledge. From my experience, you should probably try to poke the other Marth with d-tilt. I recommend not going off stage.

 

[Abel SSB]

marth can combo marth really well I fight marth with marth everyday. and if you get an opening the other person should be dead

 

[Sutekh]

What's the best way to edgeguard in a Marth ditto? I usually sh bair to ledge stall but is there anything that's better?

It really depends on how your opponent is recovering. If your opponent is sweetspotting the edge, you can try to dtilt them off of it or wavedash back and steal the edge from them. If they are missing their sweetspots you can fsmash when they pop up above the edge. If they are recovering high you can turn around and bair when they get back to the stage. Just pay attention to their habits and react accordingly!

 

[A_Reverie]

Some general Marth ditto tips: In neutral, stay grounded. You can jump for retreating f-airs but for the most part being above another Marth in any situation is worse than being grounded. If your opponent jumps at you, you can screw them over pretty thoroughly by catching them with a tipper F-air and start a combo, or simply with F-smash. Get a feel for the way they play neutral. Dash dance carefully, scouting with d-tilts like you would most matchups. The biggest deciding factor in this matchup is who can earn grabs and punish from them most effectively by pushing the other off stage. Your #1 goal in this matchup should be taking away as much of their stage as you can until you finally force them off. Most of your kills will be edge guards.

You use your d-tilt to poke at them until you can harass them into getting grabbed, either by zoning them out of center stage and catching the back of their dash dance, or by baiting shields. You can get grabs by evading with your own dash dance as well. Finding creative ways to get grabs will get you really far in this matchup. At 0%, you can chain forward throws, but with proper DI they can land and spot dodge. Pay attention to their percent, as around 8-10% (someone should test this for the actual number) f-throw will put them in knockdown. If part of a chain, they should be off stage at this point but I'll get to edge guarding later. If they are going to remain on stage, watch their DI. If they don't DI out, you can either tipper F-smash, or dash jump F-air and tipper them with it to start a harder punish for lower percents. A tipper F-smash will send them off stage in almost all cases. It's up to you if you'd rather go for an edge guard kill or work up damage with a combo.

Marth edge guards himself super hard. If you send Marth any distance off stage that isn't right next to the ledge, you should quickly grab the ledge and start stalling. This will prevent Marth from sweet spotting, and if you force him to land you'll have plenty of time to react and punish. If he falls in range, you can drop off the ledge, jump backwards and B-air him then Up-B back to the ledge. You can look to place this hit right where there jump leaves them. At higher percents it can confirm the kill even if they do still keep their jump. If Marth recovers high, stay on stage and try to force him to go low with aerials. After they go low, look for a chance to steal the edge. Until then, try and land a D-tilt to force them out. If a Marth is trying to ledge stall, do a quick wavedash backwards fast fall and steal it, of if they're stalling wrong you can just do a SHFFL D-air and spike them. If you steal the ledge they'll either Up-B immediately or drop down low and do it. If they Up-B early, just roll back on stage and F-smash. If they drop down low you can drop down with them and F-air them to death. There's also the "Marth Killer" in which you roll forward toward the ledge, hold Z and the stick toward the ledge to tilt the shield. You'll steal the ledge if he hits you with Up-B TL;DR: Force Marth to recover low and cover his limited options.

 

[OnStrings]

Some general Marth ditto tips: In neutral, stay grounded. You can jump for retreating f-airs but for the most part being above another Marth in any situation is worse than being grounded. If your opponent jumps at you, you can screw them over pretty thoroughly by catching them with a tipper F-air and start a combo, or simply with F-smash. Get a feel for the way they play neutral. Dash dance carefully, scouting with d-tilts like you would most matchups. The biggest deciding factor in this matchup is who can earn grabs and punish from them most effectively by pushing the other off stage. Your #1 goal in this matchup should be taking away as much of their stage as you can until you finally force them off. Most of your kills will be edge guards.

You use your d-tilt to poke at them until you can harass them into getting grabbed, either by zoning them out of center stage and catching the back of their dash dance, or by baiting shields. You can get grabs by evading with your own dash dance as well. Finding creative ways to get grabs will get you really far in this matchup. At 0%, you can chain forward throws, but with proper DI they can land and spot dodge. Pay attention to their percent, as around 8-10% (someone should test this for the actual number) f-throw will put them in knockdown. If part of a chain, they should be off stage at this point but I'll get to edge guarding later. If they are going to remain on stage, watch their DI. If they don't DI out, you can either tipper F-smash, or dash jump F-air and tipper them with it to start a harder punish for lower percents. A tipper F-smash will send them off stage in almost all cases. It's up to you if you'd rather go for an edge guard kill or work up damage with a combo.

Marth edge guards himself super hard. If you send Marth any distance off stage that isn't right next to the ledge, you should quickly grab the ledge and start stalling. This will prevent Marth from sweet spotting, and if you force him to land you'll have plenty of time to react and punish. If he falls in range, you can drop off the ledge, jump backwards and B-air him then Up-B back to the ledge. You can look to place this hit right where there jump leaves them. At higher percents it can confirm the kill even if they do still keep their jump. If Marth recovers high, stay on stage and try to force him to go low with aerials. After they go low, look for a chance to steal the edge. Until then, try and land a D-tilt to force them out. If a Marth is trying to ledge stall, do a quick wavedash backwards fast fall and steal it, of if they're stalling wrong you can just do a SHFFL D-air and spike them. If you steal the ledge they'll either Up-B immediately or drop down low and do it. If they Up-B early, just roll back on stage and F-smash. If they drop down low you can drop down with them and F-air them to death. There's also the "Marth Killer" in which you roll forward toward the ledge, hold Z and the stick toward the ledge to tilt the shield. You'll steal the ledge if he hits you with Up-B TL;DR: Force Marth to recover low and cover his limited options.

I've been trying to work on the marth killer in marth dittos, and so far I haven't been completely successful. Let's say I'm edge guarding a marth on the right side of the stage. I roll to the right ledge and light shield. If they up B early and hit the outside/right side of my shield, angling completely away (in this scenario, angling right) completes the marth killer and they die.

However, I've found that if they dip low and hug the wall (on stages like FD or yoshis), they hit the inside/left side of my shield instead, and angling my shield away doesn't push me to the ledge for some reason. I've even tried angling down and away (in the previous scenario, down and right) but it still doesn't work. I'll either be pushed away from the ledge towards the stage, or I start tumbling off the edge, and in tumble animation I can't grab the ledge. (Basically, my marth killer puts me in a horrible position while they stay safe) I know people say that it doesn't matter which side of the shield you get hit on, but for some reason it seems to affect me. Which way should I be angling my shield? Does this depend on where they hit my shield? And should I be letting go of the inputs immediately after the up B connects with my shield to prevent tumbling off the stage?

 

[agiM]

I haven't played much Marth dittos but you can upthrow at low percents and juggle with uptilts and upairs. Most Marths I play whenever they're falling down just tend to fair and not expect you to punish it. This is easily punished with wavedash back fsmash. Dtilts can basically annoy them and can lead into a grab which can lead to a lot in Marth dittos.
This is just some stuff I remember from the MU.

 

[Hunybear]

The Marth Ditto

Honestly it all boils down to who wins the neutral. Seeing as how the majority of your interactions will take place on the ground (as Marth is primarily a grounded character who thrives by putting people above himself) the key is a good DashDance. Really just good ground moment. A culmination of dash dance, fox trot, run cancels, wave dashes, and wave lands. Learning to act out of all these with JC grabs and D-tilt.
Honestly tho Marth can punish himself pretty hard, but theres a LOT of jank in his combo game against himself. You'll get D-tilted out of your D-tilt, F-aired out of your F-air, Crouch canceled grabbed in ways you didn't know marth could do lol!

Starting with Neutral!
your primary objective is to take stage with D-tilts and Get grabs! Grabs convert into combo's D-tilt putts you in better positions to get grabs. First lets talk about stage control. Say you have the crispier movement and can act out of d-tilt like a champ. now this Marth is in the corner. He can't make a move forward or else the risk of being out spaced and dosn't really have the room to play footsies. The ground is yours, but he cant take to the platforms or the sky's. He plays marth and knows that once he jumps he'll be your combo toy. He could go the the ledge and try some stall crab but that's a even worse position and he's not feeling like giving away free stocks today. As you can see putting him in a corner and controlling stage is incredibly important in the match up and is really something to be mindful of. You can only effectively do this if your movement is on point (primarily DD stuff) and can act out of it accordingly.

Now you may punish!!!
First i'd like to say if you have effectively put him into the corner with amazing aggressive movement CONGRATULATIONS! he has already been punished, but not in the traditional sense. Forcing your opponent into a disadvantageous position is a punishment in and of itself. Anyway Im talking about converting off of grabs mostly because some people think that's important i guess :T JK.
First of all at the lower levels of play Marth F-throw is deceptively GOD LIKE, but thwarting it's viability is as easy as the other person holding away. Marths F-throw strings only work with bad DI and he can tech out of it as early as 7%. If they hold away you're not getting a meaty COMBOOO. Your will ,however, get stage positioning and a chance to tech chase if they don't jump out. (you can jump out of Marth's f-throw and down throw starting at 0% btw) Same deal with down throw, but newer players dont opt for that option as much... i guess cuz it doesn't convert into F-smash as well. Generally if you can't throw him off stage then get him in a corner or on a platform cuz from there it'll be a total ass pain for them to not take a lot of damage.

Edge guarding!
This is happy fun time! My thoughts first... i find the threat of the Marth killer much more powerful than the move itself. It is (with time) easily spaced around and there are other options (better options) to entertain in this situation. I'll get back to this.
Marth recovering is blehh but him edge guarding is super good! First id like to start by saying more often than not you'll be edge guarding for kills and mostly from edge hogging. ( the fastest way to do this "i believe" is WD back FF) Learn proper ledge stalls as well. (edge hop> WL> back FF is good. So is FF from edge > DJ > regrab. Just make sure you fall far enough to where you're DJ will put you right next to or a little below the edge) Knowing if he has a double jump is super important! It just opens a lot of options for him and make Marths recovery a lot less linear. Stealing the edge is a really good strat because it will force him to recover high and it threatens him with a raising bair to knock him away again! D-tilts are amazing because they his below the stage, your CCing and their range is amazing. D-tilt also sends him pretty far sideways without to much up so a D-tilt to ledge stall is so deadly it's almost stupid. About the Marth killer again! Something fun is when they see the Marth killer they feel as if they need to space around it. That means Sweat spotting there up-B! while they dip low to sweet spot, just leave shield and grab edge! Its an amazing mind game which has worked so many times for me and it's as easy as rolling up to the edge.

Sorry if this is a little jumbled, but i have lots of thoughts on this that im trying to articulate in my head and get down at the same time. Hope i help someone tho! PS. Gramer is four nurds

 

[agiM]

The Marth Ditto

Honestly it all boils down to who wins the neutral. Seeing as how the majority of your interactions will take place on the ground (as Marth is primarily a grounded character who thrives by putting people above himself) the key is a good DashDance. Really just good ground moment. A culmination of dash dance, fox trot, run cancels, wave dashes, and wave lands. Learning to act out of all these with JC grabs and D-tilt.
Honestly tho Marth can punish himself pretty hard, but theres a LOT of jank in his combo game against himself. You'll get D-tilted out of your D-tilt, F-aired out of your F-air, Crouch canceled grabbed in ways you didn't know marth could do lol!

Starting with Neutral!
your primary objective is to take stage with D-tilts and Get grabs! Grabs convert into combo's D-tilt putts you in better positions to get grabs. First lets talk about stage control. Say you have the crispier movement and can act out of d-tilt like a champ. now this Marth is in the corner. He can't make a move forward or else the risk of being out spaced and dosn't really have the room to play footsies. The ground is yours, but he cant take to the platforms or the sky's. He plays marth and knows that once he jumps he'll be your combo toy. He could go the the ledge and try some stall crab but that's a even worse position and he's not feeling like giving away free stocks today. As you can see putting him in a corner and controlling stage is incredibly important in the match up and is really something to be mindful of. You can only effectively do this if your movement is on point (primarily DD stuff) and can act out of it accordingly.

Now you may punish!!!
First i'd like to say if you have effectively put him into the corner with amazing aggressive movement CONGRATULATIONS! he has already been punished, but not in the traditional sense. Forcing your opponent into a disadvantageous position is a punishment in and of itself. Anyway Im talking about converting off of grabs mostly because some people think that's important i guess :T JK.
First of all at the lower levels of play Marth F-throw is deceptively GOD LIKE, but thwarting it's viability is as easy as the other person holding away. Marths F-throw strings only work with bad DI and he can tech out of it as early as 7%. If they hold away you're not getting a meaty COMBOOO. Your will ,however, get stage positioning and a chance to tech chase if they don't jump out. (you can jump out of Marth's f-throw and back throw starting at 0% btw) Same deal with back throw, but newer players dont opt for that option as much... i guess cuz it doesn't covert into F-smash as well. Generally if you can't throw him off stage then get him in a corner or on a platform cuz from there it'll be a total *** pain for them to not take a lot of damage.

Edge guarding!
This is happy fun time! My thoughts first... i find the threat of the Marth killer much more powerful than the move itself. It is (with time) easily spaced around and there are other options (better options) to entertain in this situation. I'll get back to this.
Marth recovering is blehh but him edge guarding is super good! First id like to start by saying more often than not you'll be edge guarding for kills and mostly from edge hogging. ( the fastest way to do this "i believe" is WD back FF) Learn proper ledge stalls as well. (edge hop> WL> back FF is good. So is FF from edge > DJ > regrab. Just make sure you fall far enough to where you're DJ will put you right next to or a little below the edge) Knowing if he has a double jump is super important! It just opens a lot of options for him and make Marths recovery a lot less linear. Stealing the edge is a really good strat because it will force him to recover high and it threatens him with a raising bair to knock him away again! D-tilts are amazing because they his below the stage, your CCing and their range is amazing. D-tilt also sends him pretty far sideways without to much up so a D-tilt to ledge stall is so deadly it's almost stupid. About the Marth killer again! Something fun is when they see the Marth killer is they feel as if they need to space around it. That means Sweat spotting there up-B! while they dip low just leave shield and grab edge! Its an amazing mind game which has worked so many times fir me and it's as easy as rolling up to the edge.

Sorry if this is a little jumbled, but i have lots of thoughts on this that im trying to articulate in my head and get down at the same time. Hope i help someone tho! PS. Gramer is four nurds

Very useful information. I had trouble edgeguarding in marth dittos and it helped a lot. Definetly saving this.

 

[Hunybear]

Very useful information. I had trouble edgeguarding in marth dittos and it helped a lot. Definetly saving this.

Lol if I knew you would save it I would have wrote more I depth! (and maybe with good grammar)

 

[Xxaz_v]

What NOT to do in a Marth Ditto



1. Don't Fsmash in neutral
Most newer players make this mistake a lot. I did too at one point. Fsmashing in neutral is basically unplugging your controller and begging your opponent to grab you. There are times that Fsmash can be useful in other matchups , but when against a character with the same exact attacks as you, it's not as great of you might think.

2. Neutral air approach
In most matchups, this is a bad idea. But against another Marth, its like you're a 7/11 selling free punish slrupies.

3. Up-b in neutral
I actually have no idea how people even think this is a good idea. Unless your opponent is at a high percentage, this is a big no-no. Putting yourself high in the air, completely defenseless, against Marth is a HORRIBLE idea. Prepare to get Ken comboed if you do this near the edge.

 

[Uchihadark7]

I tend to use D tilt a lot in Marth dittos. & I don't know if this helps, but try to adapt to your opponent. My marth play style is all about adapting, and sometimes even playing like my opponent. Also, trying to grab is way too risky, unless your opponent is stunned and in the air.

 

[zero sum]

i'm not a marth main but i've spent a decent amount of my smash career playing marth dittos to help my friend practice the mu

dtilt is really, really good. you don't necessarily have to use it as only an approach, either; sometimes you can stuff approaches with wd back/down dtilt. it is a powerful tool for stage control and conditioning and of unparalleled importance in the ditto. also look at your opponent and see what they do after the dtilt. that being said, dash dance/dtilt are not the only things you need for the marth ditto. aerials are good because they allow you to circumvent the dtilt but using them too much will either get you dd grabbed or stuffed by pretty much everything else marth can do. fsmash pretty much only when you know you'll get it. make sure your punishes are good off of grabs, and get your recovery down.

people call marth dittos ‘jank’ and honestly they kind of are but they're really fun. really conditioning-heavy or alternatively just a lot of goofy punish situations

 

[DeadPigeon]

I tend to use D tilt a lot in Marth dittos. & I don't know if this helps, but try to adapt to your opponent. My marth play style is all about adapting, and sometimes even playing like my opponent. Also, trying to grab is way too risky, unless your opponent is stunned and in the air.

wat. grab all of the time

 

[Uchihadark7]

wat. grab all of the time

It's really not that easy in ditto's. You can't get too close to the other Marth. Only do it when the other Marth is stunned or lagging.

 

[DeadPigeon]

It's really not that easy in ditto's. You can't get too close to the other Marth. Only do it when the other Marth is stunned or lagging.

lol no. grab in neutral too. obviously its easier if you bait a move first, but that doesn't mean you can't throw out grab when they're not in lag

 

[Dr. Bread]

one thing thats really important in my opinion is chasing after your opponent every time they dash-dance away from you. Doing this you get them to give up space with zero risk, and they eventually get forced into the corner, where they can't dash-dance, and if you win an engagement, its a potential stock.