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Marriage is...

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Sucumbio

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... A contract made in due form of law, by which a free man and a free woman reciprocally engage to live with each other during their joint lives, in the union which ought io[sp] exist between husband and wife. -source

[collapse=First an anecdote:]

Arriving at the grocery store we see a Honda element with California plates parked out front. The bumper sticker reads: "Marriage is between one man and one woman." The font is almost paisley, curling and flourishing with strong whites and blues to catch your eye but at the same time a bit difficult to read (especially if one is riding tailgate).

"Bigot mother ****er," my formerly lesbian wife proclaims.

"Free speech," I comment as we go inside.

"Yeah, he can have my free foot up his ***."

"Why you gotta be so violent," I tease.

We finish our shopping, and she's left her wallet in the car, so to be safe she goes to wait in the car while I pay. I leave a few moments after her, to find that she's not alone. The owner of the car, which we'd parked right next to for some reason, is there, having a heated argument with my wife.

"What is your problem," he asks.

"You. You are my problem. People like you, who are so filled with hate and intolerance that you can't see the damage you're doing. Are you even married?"

"No. And it's you who's filled with hate. You who need to think about what you're saying. About the Constitution..."

"You have no right to cite the constitution! -Especially- considering you're driving an import."

This is a terribly bland version of what was said, of course, because I don't feel like having a bunch of ****'s all over the place. But you can imagine she was swearing literally every other word, which is what we call "gettin' cussed out." He decided he'd had enough. He got into his Honda, rolled the window, and proceeded to drive off.

"SUCK A BIG FAT ****," my wife screamed through his window, her face all up in it. He hit his accelerator to speed away, and she punched his window and flipped him off.

He slammed on his brakes. He got out of the car, a knife in his hands.

"What is your problem???" He was at a loss, but clearly angry at her hitting his car window.

My wife walked right up next to him, the point of the blade tempting her torso.

"Do it," she dared.

"I'm calling the police," he said, lamely.

"Go ahead! You're in Mississippi, mother ****er, this is MY town, you California POS, call you the cops, you'll get what's coming to you."

He got back in his Honda, and left.

I'm used to this type of manic behavior from her, lol. It's part of what I accepted when we married. But it does raise an important question for me. As has been said recently here in the Hall, one does not have the right to not be offended. The constitution does not protect that. Though she found his bumper sticker aggravating, and offensive, she technically (at least in the eyes of the law) was in the wrong, he in the right. She was verbally abusive, and even guilty of assault, which is why he felt the need to arm himself for protection.
[/collapse]

The issue:

Marriage itself is a purely religious doctrine, and as such, churches have every right to define marriage however they want, be it only between a man and a woman, or what have you. The union of marriage by the state, as in a marriage license, which then changes your tax status, etc. the "benefits" of being married, this should fall under civil union, and be granted to any 2 people living together, regardless of their gender. By the law's definition of marriage above, we see a conflict of interest, in that the state has defined marriage for its own purposes despite the origins of it. This seems to breech the separation of church and state doctrine, which while not explicitly mentioned in the constitution, is still one of our founding principles.
 

Dre89

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Are you saying that it's the Church's place to dtermine who can be truly married, but people such as gays should still get the legal and financial benefits of being married, without truly being married?

I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.

However, if that's what you're saying then I think it runs into a problem in that the concept of marriage existed before the Church came along.
 

Sucumbio

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Hm, not exactly. Its more that Marriage is whatever a Church (or other religious institution) says it is. Ergo, according to Catholics, marriage is strictly and definitively a consecrated sacrament between a man and a woman; a special union before God almighty. To many protestant churches, marriage is the same vow before God, but is allowed between same-sex couples.

Civil Unions, on the other hand, are strictly secular, and are granted by the State.

The word Marriage should be reserved for the religious union, and have no benefits whatsoever except for spiritual ones. Civil Unions should be what is issued with a "marriage license" and should be what's required for tax purposes, as well as other key benefits afforded "married" people.
 

rvkevin

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Marriage itself is a purely religious doctrine
This is the problem. It isn't. The moment the state issues marriage licenses, it is no longer a purely religious doctrine.
Its more that Marriage is whatever a Church (or other religious institution) says it is. Ergo, according to Catholics, marriage is strictly and definitively a consecrated sacrament between a man and a woman; a special union before God almighty. To many protestant churches, marriage is the same vow before God, but is allowed between same-sex couples.

Civil Unions, on the other hand, are strictly secular, and are granted by the State.

The word Marriage should be reserved for the religious union, and have no benefits whatsoever except for spiritual ones. Civil Unions should be what is issued with a "marriage license" and should be what's required for tax purposes, as well as other key benefits afforded "married" people.
This would work if the state no longer gave out marriage licenses, and instead gave out civil union licenses. However, the religious would still object to it since it is merely marriage by another name. It leaves us in no better situation than changing the definition of marriage under the law.
 

Sucumbio

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This would work if the state no longer gave out marriage licenses, and instead gave out civil union licenses. However, the religious would still object to it since it is merely marriage by another name. It leaves us in no better situation than changing the definition of marriage under the law.
my point exactly! you see that fight in the anecdote could have been avoided if civil unions were what's issued by the state. my thoughts are that people only ***** about "marriage, one man one woman ftw" because of the religious aspect. by secularizing the union, that takes the wind from their sails, they really have no grounds to complain, in other words, there's no need to be quoting scripture etc. because it's not actual marriage. now if gays want to be married, they can fight that struggle all they want, but so long as the State does not deny them Civil Unions, I feel their civil liberties are not being infringed.

Basically I'd like to see an end to State-issued marriage licenses, let the churches bark at their congregations and whatnot. Sure this may turn focus a bit for gays, I'm sure they'll then need to struggle against the churches themselves, but I dunno, when it comes to God, most people are willing to worship any way they can, so long as they feel welcome to the congregation, and there's plenty of gay-affirming churches.
 

rvkevin

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by secularizing the union, that takes the wind from their sails, they really have no grounds to complain
But marriage licenses are already secular. There is no religious aspect to state issued marriage licenses. Just because religious and secular notions of unity involve the same word does not mean that they need to follow one another. Churches can still reject notions of state sponsored marriages by rejecting to hold ceremonies for homosexuals. The state can reject notions of religious sponsored marriages by issuing marriage licenses to homosexuals. The two notions of marriage don't need to coincide.

The other problem not addressed was even if this happened, would it fix the problem? There are religious groups that object to civil unions because it is merely marriage by another name. Even if the government changes the name from marriage licenses to civil union licenses, I doubt this would be satisfactory for the religious. Maybe it will, but I'm not sure how many people will be fooled by a simple name change. If it doesn't work, then we are still in a situation where we will need to change the definition of civil unions (which just replaced the old framework of marriage) to include homosexuals, which will be as difficult as trying to change the definition of marriage in the first place. I think it would be simply easier to just change the definition of marriage rather than taking this detour.

Another thing to consider, it is easier to change the usage of a word than to introduce a new word to replace it. When someone says "I'm getting married to X," do you really think that "I'm going to enter into a civil union with X" is going to stick? Marry is still going to be used as the colloquial term. This will just reinforce the idea that civil unions are simply marriage by another name. In the end, I don't think it will satisfy the religious. I really don't think that changing the name of marriage licenses will solve any of the issues and it is more efficient to just expand the legal definition of marriage to include homosexuals.
 

Dre89

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But isn't a civil union essentially a marriage anyway, in that if the two people stop living together (ie. divorce) they lose their legal/financial benefits, commiting them to the same obligation as marriage anyway.
 

rvkevin

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Right guys, because "separate, but equal" worked really well when it came to schools...
Nobody said separate. The only thing we mentioned that should be separate is church and state, which I don't see an objection to.
 

blazedaces

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Nobody said separate. The only thing we mentioned that should be separate is church and state, which I don't see an objection to.
I'm referring to the idea of "Civil Unions", which as Dre pointed out above are supposed to be "equal" to a marriage. By separating homosexual unions and heterosexual unions you are indeed trying to enact a system of "separate, but equal".

-blazed
 

rvkevin

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I'm referring to the idea of "Civil Unions", which as Dre pointed out above are supposed to be "equal" to a marriage. By separating homosexual unions and heterosexual unions you are indeed trying to enact a system of "separate, but equal".

-blazed
There would be no separate. The state would issue civil unions to homosexuals in the same way that they would issue civil unions to heterosexuals. The proposed compromise was for the state to stop issuing "marriage" licenses, but still give the same rights to both homosexuals and heterosexuals under the name of civil unions. It was merely a call for a name change, perhaps to make it an easier sell for the state to change the definition to include homosexuals.
 

vVv Rapture

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There would be no separate. The state would issue civil unions to homosexuals in the same way that they would issue civil unions to heterosexuals. The proposed compromise was for the state to stop issuing "marriage" licenses, but still give the same rights to both homosexuals and heterosexuals under the name of civil unions. It was merely a call for a name change, perhaps to make it an easier sell for the state to change the definition to include homosexuals.
But the only reason there would be civil unions and marriages as individual concepts is because homosexuals wouldn't be able to marry.

Allowing heterosexuals to be both married and in civil union while only allowing homosexuals to have civil unions is still a separation. There's no way around it.

The problem is, religion has too much influence in our government as it is. Marriage essentially has to become so unimportant that it doesn't matter who is married or not, but so that the civil union itself is only what matters.

Or, as rvkevin said, we should just expand the definition of marriage to allow homosexual union. Simple as that.
 

rvkevin

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Allowing heterosexuals to be both married and in civil union while only allowing homosexuals to have civil unions is still a separation. There's no way around it.
That isn't the proposal. The proposal is for the state to get out of the marriage business. The state would not be issuing marriage licenses. Heterosexual couples would not receive marriage licenses. They would only receive civil unions. These civil unions would serve the same role that marriages currently serve and they would be given out to homosexual and heterosexual couples. However, I, for one, don't think this is the most efficient plan.
 

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There would be no separate. The state would issue civil unions to homosexuals in the same way that they would issue civil unions to heterosexuals. The proposed compromise was for the state to stop issuing "marriage" licenses, but still give the same rights to both homosexuals and heterosexuals under the name of civil unions. It was merely a call for a name change, perhaps to make it an easier sell for the state to change the definition to include homosexuals.
I realize this was one proposal and if we're discussing only this particular one, under the law alone this is a fair and just proposal. If the United States is to issue only Civil Unions, which provide tax benefits or whatever it is they do, and NOT marriage licenses, we're fine.

But to be honest, this is an unpractical solution. This proposal would never be taken seriously and no state nor federal court would accept it.

I'm still confused entirely why this has EVER been an issue. Any two people should be allowed to be married, period. It's true that a church is allowed to refuse to marry any two people, but the United States of America is not allowed to refuse under grounds of sexual discrimination. And further more, there are churches in existence that DO INDEED marry homosexual couples. Why does this debate even exist has always been beyond me.

-blazed
 

Sucumbio

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But marriage licenses are already secular.
They're only secular in name. By using the word marriage the state is endorsing a religious doctrine. My whole problem with state issued licenses is that there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. There's also "In God We Trust" on money, which I have a problem with, but one thing at a time... marriage really has no business being dealt with by the government. Now if you want to grant your citizens a reward for living together and raising a family (joint tax return, more tax dependents) cool, but don't call it marriage, that's a Religious word. Call it a Union. That way -any- two people who live together for x months-years can be considered in a union together, and benefit in terms of taxes, plus this sets a precedent for employers. "Common Law" marriage is the state recognizing when two people who do not have a marriage license as being married for all intents and purposes, and therefore can file joint tax returns, can apply for married benefits with employers, gov agencies, etc. Two gay men should also be able to be "common law" married but they can't. Why? Because marriage is defined as a union between a man and a woman -according to Religion.- It's hypocritical, and is the fuel behind the fire of Prop 8, and others like it. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it'd just effect a name change and nothing else. By stopping the issuing of marriage licenses, the government is sending a clear message that they do not involve themselves in religion, or use religion as the basis for any of their laws, which is what it's supposed to be like.

Why does this debate even exist has always been beyond me.

-blazed
because the US was infiltrated by christian fundamentalists over the course of its history. the US motto used to be E pluribus unum (One from many) until 1956 when Dwight D. Eisenhower approved the law to change it to In God We Trust.
 

blazedaces

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They're only secular in name. By using the word marriage the state is endorsing a religious doctrine. My whole problem with state issued licenses is that there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. There's also "In God We Trust" on money, which I have a problem with, but one thing at a time... marriage really has no business being dealt with by the government. Now if you want to grant your citizens a reward for living together and raising a family (joint tax return, more tax dependents) cool, but don't call it marriage, that's a Religious word. Call it a Union. That way -any- two people who live together for x months-years can be considered in a union together, and benefit in terms of taxes, plus this sets a precedent for employers. "Common Law" marriage is the state recognizing when two people who do not have a marriage license as being married for all intents and purposes, and therefore can file joint tax returns, can apply for married benefits with employers, gov agencies, etc. Two gay men should also be able to be "common law" married but they can't. Why? Because marriage is defined as a union between a man and a woman -according to Religion.- It's hypocritical, and is the fuel behind the fire of Prop 8, and others like it. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it'd just effect a name change and nothing else. By stopping the issuing of marriage licenses, the government is sending a clear message that they do not involve themselves in religion, or use religion as the basis for any of their laws, which is what it's supposed to be like.
1. Words can have more than one meaning.

2. There is more than one religion in this world that includes marriage in their doctrines, and I'm 100% sure at least one religion in existence has declared marriage between two people in love (not necessarily between a man and a woman). If one doesn't exist I can start one... right now. That's just how easy it is...

3. The definition of marriage has been changed many times before (as I showed in my source in my first post on this thread), the biggest change known is the "between a man and a woman of the same race" modification which was deemed unconstitutional by the supreme court. This situation is no different.

4. Do you realize how many words are in law that are ALSO in the bible? Are we referring to the definition of murder in the bible every time we sentence someone? How about slavery? Do we honestly have to make up a new word every time something happens to be both in a religious scripture and in our law?

-blazed
 

Sucumbio

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1. Words can have more than one meaning.

2. There is more than one religion in this world that includes marriage in their doctrines, and I'm 100% sure at least one religion in existence has declared marriage between two people in love (not necessarily between a man and a woman). If one doesn't exist I can start one... right now. That's just how easy it is...

3. The definition of marriage has been changed many times before (as I showed in my source in my first post on this thread), the biggest change known is the "between a man and a woman of the same race" modification which was deemed unconstitutional by the supreme court. This situation is no different.

4. Do you realize how many words are in law that are ALSO in the bible? Are we referring to the definition of murder in the bible every time we sentence someone? How about slavery? Do we honestly have to make up a new word every time something happens to be both in a religious scripture and in our law?

-blazed
It seems as if you're arguing that it'd be more efficient for the government to redefine marriage as like before with the race thing, instead of redefining the whole concept as unions. Yeah?

I suppose. I feel it's six of one half a dozen of the other. Either way, gays get to marry, finally. But at least my way, nay-sayers can't argue against gays getting married by using religious arguments (which is their only argument, really). Because it wouldn't be up to churches to grant the unions, it'd be up to the government, and only the government. Saying "well the bible says gays blah blah blah" would be moot, in other words, because the law would say "a civil union is..." and they could hide behind the fact the law isn't using the word marriage.
 

blazedaces

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It seems as if you're arguing that it'd be more efficient for the government to redefine marriage as like before with the race thing, instead of redefining the whole concept as unions. Yeah?

I suppose. I feel it's six of one half a dozen of the other. Either way, gays get to marry, finally. But at least my way, nay-sayers can't argue against gays getting married by using religious arguments (which is their only argument, really). Because it wouldn't be up to churches to grant the unions, it'd be up to the government, and only the government. Saying "well the bible says gays blah blah blah" would be moot, in other words, because the law would say "a civil union is..." and they could hide behind the fact the law isn't using the word marriage.
We're in complete agreement.

If your proposal could actually happen it would be a better solution to the problem... but I just don't see it feasibly happening...

-blazed
 

Crimson King

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That bumper sticker is awesome because, if it's the same I've seen, then it says man plus a woman equals marriage, evidently regardless of age, relation, or consent. Just man + woman.
 

Sucumbio

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@CK: It was "One man + One Woman Forever" iirc, it had a US Flag theme, I was hoping to find a .jpg of it somewhere but despite there being millions of variations I can't seem to find that specific one.

@blazed: yeah, I agree it's a long shot.

"When we allow government to “recognize” religious institutions, such as marriage, we invite the establishment of orthodoxies, where government can attach benefits or sanctions to the exercise of religious practices; we invite, at a minimum, debasement of religious freedom and, ultimately subjugation and destruction of it." -Jonathan Emord
 

#HBC | Dark Horse

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Just throwing this out, once I read in a weird facts book that inn this one place, people can get married when they're 4 years old.

And I read in the same book that the wives would be bought for money.
 

DoH

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tM0Pg_KKV8

I think this video sums up everything I feel perfectly. Straight people have redefined marriage to the point where it no longer makes any rational sense to exclude gay people. At the point in which marriage predates religion, then there isn't anything sacred about a secular marriage, which is what the state promotes, since it can't endorse religion.
 
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