Mario's Customs: What could've been.

[ralph458]

I just think Mario's customs (and most other customs for that matter) are somewhat underwhelming. Like his down specials, why couldn't they be some of the other nozzles like hover, rocket or boost. and why couldn't his up special costumes be completely different, like the propeller shroom, or the red star from galaxy even. I just feel there's so much missed opportunity and potential. What do you think?

 

[hotdogtaco4321]

Yeah. It would be neat if everyone's customs were more unique instead of just being alterations of their normal specials...

 

[smasher1001]

Scalding fludd is actually obscenely amazing if you learn to use it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Fast Fireball, Gust Cape, and Scalding F.L.U.D.D. are probably Mario's only good custom special moves.

Fast Fireball's increased speed makes it easy to spam; Gust Cape offers windboxes, along with reflecting properties; Scalding F.L.U.D.D. can actually be used offensively.

Super Jump Punch's customs really aren't usable, since Super Jump's recovery really isn't any better than Super Jump Punch's, while Explosive Punch hinders Mario's recovery with its weaker travel distance.

 

[Wintropy]

Fast Fireball, Gust Cape, and Scalding F.L.U.D.D. are probably Mario's only good custom special moves.

Fast Fireball's increased speed makes it easy to spam; Gust Cape offers windboxes, along with reflecting properties; Scalding F.L.U.D.D. can actually be used offensively.

Super Jump Punch's customs really aren't usable, since Super Jump's recovery really isn't any better than Super Jump Punch's, while Explosive Punch hinders Mario's recovery with its weaker travel distance.

Shocking Cape.

Disjointed kill confirm out of d-throw is godly, and it's a solid edgeguarding tool in its own right.

I honestly find Gust Cape overrated. The windbox is good for gimping certain characters with predictable recoveries and underwhelming airspeed (Mac, Doc, Ganondorf, etc), but you can get much of the same effect with default Cape if the opponent can't reverse their trajectory or commits to a side-b recovery, and I find the smaller hitbox for reflector is more hassle than it's worth.

Scalding FLUDD is another disjoint and it confirms into grab. I don't need to remind y'all that Mario has a hella good grab game.

Explosive Punch is definitely usable if you're savvy with it, you've got another solid kill confirm out of d-throw and Mario's jump height and airspeed means he doesn't necessarily need the extra momentum from default Jump Punch. It's probably better on Doc, since it's not like he gets much benefit from Super Jump's extra vertical recovery, but it's not something I'd discount for Mario either.

This is just based on my experience labbing Mario and observing others in a customs-on meta. Mario has insanely good customs if you know how to use them.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I didn't think that Gust Cape had a shorter reflecting range, but the added windbox that it offers does make the default F.L.U.D.D. feel obsolete; you don't even have to charge up Gust Cape.

As for Mario's grab game, my grab usage with him is often very low, so I wouldn't really know about it.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Shocking Cape.

Disjointed kill confirm out of d-throw is godly, and it's a solid edgeguarding tool in its own right.

I honestly find Gust Cape overrated. The windbox is good for gimping certain characters with predictable recoveries and underwhelming airspeed (Mac, Doc, Ganondorf, etc), but you can get much of the same effect with default Cape if the opponent can't reverse their trajectory or commits to a side-b recovery, and I find the smaller hitbox for reflector is more hassle than it's worth.

Scalding FLUDD is another disjoint and it confirms into grab. I don't need to remind y'all that Mario has a hella good grab game.

Explosive Punch is definitely usable if you're savvy with it, you've got another solid kill confirm out of d-throw and Mario's jump height and airspeed means he doesn't necessarily need the extra momentum from default Jump Punch. It's probably better on Doc, since it's not like he gets much benefit from Super Jump's extra vertical recovery, but it's not something I'd discount for Mario either.

This is just based on my experience labbing Mario and observing others in a customs-on meta. Mario has insanely good customs if you know how to use them.

Little Mac is in the middle of the pack when it comes to airspeed. As for Mario/Doc's Explosive Jump Punch/Ol' One Two (EJP/OOT):

Mario: You can't reverse it on hit or shield, which means you can't make yourself safer and at times you cannot combo into the second hit. If I recall correctly, it's also slightly slower than the default on startup so you have a worse OOS game. You may get a kill option, but you lose the versatility.

Doc: Same problems as Mario's version, compounded by Doc's worse mobility stats and the fact that the default is vastly superior (frame 3 kill move with a large hitbox at the beginning). Doc also gets a lot out of the default's recovery and the ability to reverse his Up-B makes it a pretty solid edge-guarding move.

 

[Wintropy]

I didn't think that Gust Cape had a shorter reflecting range, but the added windbox that it offers does make the default F.L.U.D.D. feel obsolete; you don't even have to charge up Gust Cape.

Pretty sure that the reflector's hitbox is smaller on Gust Cape, but I may be mistaken, it's been a while since I've used that custom. It has its uses, but I know people that think default Cape or Shocking Cape are just better and more useful options.

Little Mac is in the middle of the pack when it comes to airspeed.

Oh, I didn't mean that airspeed is a necessary trait in order for them to be gimpable with Gust Cape, just that it helps. Mac may have decent airspeed, but his potential angles of recovery mean he doesn't get much horizontal distance when he's used up his jumps.

As for Mario/Doc's Explosive Jump Punch/Ol' One Two (EJP/OOT):

Mario: You can't reverse it on hit or shield, which means you can't make yourself safer and at times you cannot combo into the second hit. If I recall correctly, it's also slightly slower than the default on startup so you have a worse OOS game. You may get a kill option, but you lose the versatility.

Doc: Same problems as Mario's version, compounded by Doc's worse mobility stats and the fact the default is vastly superior (frame 3 kill move with a large hitbox at the beginning). Doc also gets a lot out of the default's recovery and the ability to reverse his Up-B makes it a pretty solid edge-guarding move.

Agreed, I'm just pointing out that neither Explosive Punch custom is a total washout. They have niche uses that weren't mentioned in the original thesis.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Pretty sure that the reflector's hitbox is smaller on Gust Cape, but I may be mistaken, it's been a while since I've used that custom. It has its uses, but I know people that think default Cape or Shocking Cape are just better and more useful options.



Oh, I didn't mean that airspeed is a necessary trait in order for them to be gimpable with Gust Cape, just that it helps. Mac may have decent airspeed, but his potential angles of recovery mean he doesn't get much horizontal distance when he's used up his jumps.



Agreed, I'm just pointing out that neither Explosive Punch custom is a total washout. They have niche uses that weren't mentioned in the original thesis.

I skipped over that part of your response (i.e. predictable recoveries). My mistake.


Whatever niche uses EJP/OOT have are not really worth considering, especially because the defaults are just much more versatile. That's the key thing here. For example, Fast Fireball may have its' share of problems and might be worse than the original at some things, but it's got enough going for it to make it worth using. Same thing applies to Fast Capsules of course, but with Doc it's a bit better because of his lower short hop.

I think it's best to have as few sets as possible and even in that case, EJP/OOT do not make the cut.

 

[Wintropy]

I skipped over that part of your response (i.e. predictable recoveries). My mistake.

No worries~

Whatever niche uses EJP/OOT have are not really worth considering, especially because the defaults are just much more versatile. That's the key thing here. For example, Fast Fireball may have its' share of problems and might be worse than the original at some things, but it's got enough going for it to make it worth using. Same thing applies to Fast Capsules of course, but with Doc it's a bit better because of his lower short hop.

I think it's best to have as few sets as possible and even in that case, EJP/OOT do not make the cut.

I don't disagree with you, I'm just playing devil's advocate for the sake of discussion.

Personally, if I was running a custom Mario, I'd opt for Fast Fireball / Shocking Cape (substitute default Cape for certain matchups) / Super Jump Punch / Scalding FLUDD, as I think that covers your bases fairly well and has enough versatility to be useful in most relevant matchups. Now I don't play Mario to any meaningful degree (I play a bit of Doc, but that's neither here nor there), but I know people that do, and this seems to be the consensus as to his optimal custom set.

 

[ralph458]

I should've clarified, I don't mean they're bad when I say underwhelming, I mean they aren't unique. Also I do like gust cape, and I like fast fireball (somehow I prefer 's version, but that may be my bias), and I can't use F.L.U.D.D at all, and believe me, I've tried. But if he had hover, rocket or boost, maybe I could use it. Also, I do think shock cape is somewhat underrated, but gust cape is just better for my playstyle