Mario vs the heavies?

[Philo$opher]

I really don't see how Mario goes mostly-even with the whole Smash 4 roster. I see people everywhere post 'Mario goes even or better with everyone,' it seems to be the consensus. But when I go Mario vs. a Bowser, or a King Dedede, in For Glory, I consistently have a much harder time than most of the other characters (besides good Shieks and ZSS'). Admittedly, I didn't quite notice the unevenness of these match ups until I got completely creamed on Anther's Ladder by both Bowser and KDDD. Nonetheless, Bowser in particular seems to have a solid advantage over Mario because of the higher range and damage output. I don't even play Bowser, but I counterpick him against Mario mains all the time online, and have a much easier time winning than through a Mario ditto.
I tried looking at Ally's Mario vs a Bowser in tournament in hopes of gaining some match up insight, but he had a much harder time winning as Mario than as Shulk. (see Ally vs Calm Animal at SW 41). It seems a longer-range secondary character is necessary as a Mario main.

Of course, most of what I read on Smashboards goes against what I'm saying, so I'd really just like to hear counterpoints about my view on these match ups.

inb4 "For Glory players suck" -"whatever dude"

 

[hotdogtaco4321]

well.. even though heavies can survive long and outrange you I think they still don't beat mario because of some factors. Mario is faster and smaller than them and has faster moves overall. along with his amazing combo ability and damage racking ability which is even better due to their large size. you just need to play more safe and wait longer to try and KO. also I could see this being annoying but you just have to get past their range and then your range issues won't matter and you have generally faster moves overall. I think you should just try to be more patient with them and capitalize more on anything you get. but you should still be careful and watch out for those extremely powerful moves they have.

 

[miniada]

Heavy weight mario beats: .
even: .
Lose:.

 

[hotdogtaco4321]

Heavy weight mario beats: .
even: .
Lose:.

You can't say and are heavy weight but not ... They are the same weight. Also I don't think that loses to but if was on here I would say loses to him.

 

[Philo$opher]

well.. even though heavies can survive long and outrange you I think they still don't beat mario because of some factors. Mario is faster and smaller than them and has faster moves overall. along with his amazing combo ability and damage racking ability which is even better due to their large size. you just need to play more safe and wait longer to try and KO. also I could see this being annoying but you just have to get past their range and then your range issues won't matter and you have generally faster moves overall. I think you should just try to be more patient with them and capitalize more on anything you get. but you should still be careful and watch out for those extremely powerful moves they have.

The thing is, as Mario vs Bowser, I have to bait out Bowser's risky moves to get anything in. A smart Bowser won't necessarily fall for the bait, so it's difficult to rely on bait for the matchup. Other than baiting, approaching Bowser on the ground gets Mario easily jabbed for f-tilted, and even if Mario does get in, Bowser can simply up-b or d-smash him out. Mario's aerials get out-ranged and overpowered by f-air, and super-armored by up-smash. So basically, approaching at any point is a 50-50 shot of getting hit hard, and that's only if I'm playing relatively unpredictably. All of this is assuming the Bowser can powershield Mario's fireballs, which I don't think is an unfair assumption.
While I agree that Mario could rack up some quick damage, say, off of a grab, it often ends up helping Bowser's KO with rage more than helping Mario KO Bowser. Finally, Bowser becomes much more easy when you can simply out-range him with a sword fighter, or anyone with disjointed hitboxes. So I think it's fair to say the matchup is at least pretty difficult for Mario if you have to constantly read your opponent to stand a chance at winning.

Edit: I do agree with you when it comes to most heavies, though. KDDD's ground moves commit him a bit more than Bowser's jab so it's a lot easier for Mario to take advantage if patient.

 

[LieSander]

Most heavyweight characters lack an aerial to break combos (e.g. frame three aerials like Luigi nair), so down throw shenanigans work starting from even 0% on some of them.

My main low percent damage comes from three or so D throw > 2 D tilt > regrab, because someone like bowser doesn't have a move fast enough to break it, and he's so heavy that he lands and can't jump.

Continuing from this, up air chains are much easier to land on larger characters, so by the end of the lengthy juggling they can have around 80% after all this. It's pretty monumental.

Now, this isn't to discredit a heavy character's ability to come back after landing a few hits, but keep in mind that proper move usage and just keeping them in the air in general (because all but fair are extremely fast for mario) can make landing a real pain for them, something which Mario can abuse to no end. Even if your up air or bair didn't hit because they air dodged, you are GUARANTEED to hit the next one as the cool down is so tiny that second one catches them as the air dodge ends.

On the approach, RAR bair is quite the godsend, as not only is it safe if spaced properly, it can be used to cross up their shield with nair or up air and still land with general safety (nair being more safe). You can keep the pressure going by jabbing or grabbing, or move away to avoid any scary OoS options. If you're feeling adventurous, D tilt can also allow follow ups.

 

[hotdogtaco4321]

Well I think that the fact that Bowser can now combo Mario off of a grab and kill confirm could have a pretty big impact on the mu...

 

[LieSander]

Yea, bowser is a monster now... Perhaps landing behind him is the safest bet, or just spacing bair. Even then, landing behind him can still get punished by up b OoS if you're not careful. Frightening.

 

[Zanarkan]

Bowser, in my opinion, is the only outlier here that Mario now just straight-up loses to due to the crazy buffs he received in the most recent patch. From my experience as well as watching a lot of tournament matches both at high levels and low levels, I believe Mario goes even with, or straight up beats just about all of the heavy characters.

I prefer to break "heavy" characters into two categories, small and large. large being the ones with large hurt boxes (charizard, bowser, DK, King DDD, etc...) and small being the fast fallers with smaller sizes (captain falcon, link, shulk, etc...). For the larger characters excluding bowser, Mario wins due to his crazy combo game, about all of these characters lack a fast, reliable aerial to break up Mario's up air strings and other combos. Some people will argue that this is true but Mario loses to them due to his struggle with killing them and that they live for so long because they are heavy. I counter this by pointing out that most of these large heavy characters have mediocre recoveries at best and Mario has plenty of tools to easily gimp them with Fludd, Cape, and bair walls.

With regards to the smaller heavy characters, even though Mario's combos aren't as solid as on the larger ones, they are still very effective. Samus, Link, and ROB all rely heavily on zoning and projectiles and Mario has cape and fireballs to deal with this better than a lot of characters can. His projectile, while not the best, still gets the job done when dealing with rush down characters like Falcon as well.

As long as your combo/punish game is on point and your neutral is decent you should've have too many problems against heavy characters with Mario. Just remember especially when playing the ladder and for glory, that smash is a game that doesn't have upsets too often, the better player usually wins and character matchups don't matter too much until you get into the super high level tournament matches. Don't get discouraged if you lose to a better player, should just motivate you to practice and get better!

 

[Derkaa]

Heavies can seem to have even or advantageous match ups on a lot of characters simply because they have decent punish games when combo heavy characters (i.e. mario) over extend their strings. You just have to play the neutral well and optimize punishes and combos without over extending.

Also, online play with its slightly increased lag, to me, seems to increase the effectiveness of defensive play slightly, not that it tips the scales, but simply helps defensive players and punishment heavy characters because they have slightly more time to react to rush down and combo characters' approach options and respond with a defensive option or mix it up with a quick offensive option. At least, that is the way I understand online play. I have a slightly harder time approaching online because reactionary opponents seem to benefit a bit from the lag.