Berserker.
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Talk about red 
vs
vs 
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Mario Match-up thread (Jumping solves everything)
- Thread starter Berserker.
- Start date
Xeze
Smash Ace
Shulk has range in his favor. N-air destroys Mario's fireballs and allows Shulk to approach him. Once Mario is offstage, Shulk can gimp him, specially if using Jump mode.
However Mario can easily combo Shulk because he doesn't have a fast aerial to break out of up tilt and u-air strings. Vision can be predicted and follows up to another grab. Plus Shulk's recovery with air slash can be gimped with FLUDD.
However Mario can easily combo Shulk because he doesn't have a fast aerial to break out of up tilt and u-air strings. Vision can be predicted and follows up to another grab. Plus Shulk's recovery with air slash can be gimped with FLUDD.
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
I remember playing friendlies vs Mav's Mario at Apex. To me it seemed to be even.
Range plays a big part, and Shulk has it all. Mario isn't slow by any means, but he isn't that fast enough either to run in and punish our tilts. That said, spacing correctly is very important, or else we're gonna eat a lot of damage from Mario, or if we are already at high percent U-smash and F-smash will finish us off.
Neither character wants to be offstage in this MU because FLUDD / [Gust] Cape and Jump / Speed monados let each respective character gimp each other.
Mario's combo game is much better than Shulk's, even if we have a monado equipped (I believe Mario's combo game is among the best in the Smash4 cast, in fact).
Mario equiped with Fast Fireball is a threat to our air dominance, but our attacks can also cut through them if timed right.
In general, Shulk essentially wants to be well spaced away from Mario, while Mario will be aiming to close in on Shulk unless he's trying to land an F-Smash. Shulk can push Mario offstage and keep him out, but Mario can rack up a lot of damage on Shulk if he gets in. Both have the tools to edgeguard and gimp each other offstage.
I think the MU is even, when both play it correctly.
50:50
Range plays a big part, and Shulk has it all. Mario isn't slow by any means, but he isn't that fast enough either to run in and punish our tilts. That said, spacing correctly is very important, or else we're gonna eat a lot of damage from Mario, or if we are already at high percent U-smash and F-smash will finish us off.
Neither character wants to be offstage in this MU because FLUDD / [Gust] Cape and Jump / Speed monados let each respective character gimp each other.
Mario's combo game is much better than Shulk's, even if we have a monado equipped (I believe Mario's combo game is among the best in the Smash4 cast, in fact).
Mario equiped with Fast Fireball is a threat to our air dominance, but our attacks can also cut through them if timed right.
In general, Shulk essentially wants to be well spaced away from Mario, while Mario will be aiming to close in on Shulk unless he's trying to land an F-Smash. Shulk can push Mario offstage and keep him out, but Mario can rack up a lot of damage on Shulk if he gets in. Both have the tools to edgeguard and gimp each other offstage.
I think the MU is even, when both play it correctly.
50:50
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Gidy
Smash Lord
lol Luigi
Xeze said a lot of the things I wanted to point out when requesting this MU, like Mario's combo game and how Shulk can't really get out of it and FLUDD can screw him if he pops up above the ledge with Airslash recovery. However, Shulk can combo Mario quite well too with his range and Mario can't use his fast nair to break these strings.
Similar to the Sheik thread, Shulk can use Smash at medium percents or even Shield at 0/low percents to avoid the down throw follow ups from Mario. They can be kind of situational, but since Mario's only really good spacing option against us his Bair, these Monado arts can be applied to for free damage. Fair is also a option here since Mario is nowhere near as fast as Sheik. Just watch out for when he's running and looking for a reverse Bair, because it will hit Shulk.
Speed can be used to get in against his fireballs simply by run>shield>run>shield or like said before, Nair. Just watch out for the grab if you are starting at 0% with speed. But I feel like vanilla Shulk should be what you start with because you don't want to get in against a character like Mario, something that was said before for Captain Falcon.
Mario's uptilt does 5-6% and Uair does 7%. While they aren't bad taken one at a time, they are TERRIBLE getting combo'd with, especially is you have Buster on. Try to disable it if you are caught in his down throw follow ups at 0%. What could turn out to be a 0-40% could be 0-50+ with Buster on.
Jump is what's gonna be useful for gimping. Mario has a decent recovery that has not problem sweet spotting but gimp him once with a Fair and he could be done.
Other than the other negatives I pointed out, I think Shulk has a advantage in this matchup, but ever so slightly. Similar to all the other rush down characters, once they are in it's gonna be a hell of a time trying to get them out. However with Mario's manageable running speed along Bair being the only practical spacing option against Shulk it's gonna be hard for them to get in in the first place.
A lot of what I said applies to this video, but SilentDo0m could not handle pressure well. (Just a heads up, this match is really ratchet when it comes to the other commentators)
Xeze said a lot of the things I wanted to point out when requesting this MU, like Mario's combo game and how Shulk can't really get out of it and FLUDD can screw him if he pops up above the ledge with Airslash recovery. However, Shulk can combo Mario quite well too with his range and Mario can't use his fast nair to break these strings.
Similar to the Sheik thread, Shulk can use Smash at medium percents or even Shield at 0/low percents to avoid the down throw follow ups from Mario. They can be kind of situational, but since Mario's only really good spacing option against us his Bair, these Monado arts can be applied to for free damage. Fair is also a option here since Mario is nowhere near as fast as Sheik. Just watch out for when he's running and looking for a reverse Bair, because it will hit Shulk.
Speed can be used to get in against his fireballs simply by run>shield>run>shield or like said before, Nair. Just watch out for the grab if you are starting at 0% with speed. But I feel like vanilla Shulk should be what you start with because you don't want to get in against a character like Mario, something that was said before for Captain Falcon.
Mario's uptilt does 5-6% and Uair does 7%. While they aren't bad taken one at a time, they are TERRIBLE getting combo'd with, especially is you have Buster on. Try to disable it if you are caught in his down throw follow ups at 0%. What could turn out to be a 0-40% could be 0-50+ with Buster on.
Jump is what's gonna be useful for gimping. Mario has a decent recovery that has not problem sweet spotting but gimp him once with a Fair and he could be done.
Other than the other negatives I pointed out, I think Shulk has a advantage in this matchup, but ever so slightly. Similar to all the other rush down characters, once they are in it's gonna be a hell of a time trying to get them out. However with Mario's manageable running speed along Bair being the only practical spacing option against Shulk it's gonna be hard for them to get in in the first place.
A lot of what I said applies to this video, but SilentDo0m could not handle pressure well. (Just a heads up, this match is really ratchet when it comes to the other commentators)
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Linkmario00
Smash Journeyman
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I think this MU is absolutely in Shulk favor. If Shulk spaces well (specially with Speed on, obviously) he gets big reward from that, since Mario isn't fast enough to punish our attacks and Shulk is advantaged thanks to the range. Off stage I think Shulk has a little advantage because with Jump it's difficult to get a Cape or the fludd for Mario. You can also increase rapidly damage with buster and then feel sure to KO with buster since you should not take much damage. Also I found Shield pretty useful, because Mario don't have really powerful moves except for sweetspotted Fsmash and Usmash, so you can easily live until high percentage.
The only problem is when Mario gets in and start to combo you, since Shulk doesn't have fast aerials to break combos and you'll take a lot of damage by that.
However, for me it's +2 in Shulk favor
The only problem is when Mario gets in and start to combo you, since Shulk doesn't have fast aerials to break combos and you'll take a lot of damage by that.
However, for me it's +2 in Shulk favor
Gidy
Smash Lord
If you look at the video I posted you can see that Mario is not even near the ledge and he punished Shulks Airslash recovery with FLUDD. Now that you say it, though, Speed could be a excellent option for retreating Nairs/Fairs.
relaxedexcorcist
Smash Ace
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Mario's a toughy. Shulk outranges Mario by a mile and can neutralize fireball approaches with fair, nair, and bair. Shulk's range in general just makes it hard for Mario to approach, but Mario's got the air speed to play it very safe if Speed or Jump aren't on. Also since Mario has the projectile and you don't, he doesn't really need to approach either unless he's losing. He has almost no commitment on the moves he should be throwing out in neutral, so that combined with his great air speed makes him pretty difficult to punish. Thankfully, Mario's main source of damage, his throw combos, do a very small amount of damage for the amount of the buttons he has to hit, so getting caught in this during Buster/Smash/Jump wouldn't be as terrible as be caught during that by say, Luigi or Falcon. Shield mode also stops the combo from dthrow from working at 0%, which is pretty great if the Mario doesn't know about it.
Offstage its anyone's game. Shulk does have to commit more to his gimps vs Mario since Mario's Up-B has a huge disjoint at the start is very fast, so once Mario with reach of the stage Shulk can't really do anything to him since Mario can just Up-B on reaction. The gimps are still doable though since Mario's recovery in terms of distance isn't that great, so if you catch him deep offstage he's pretty dead. On Marios end, he's got the cape and FLUDD, which will ruin Shulk's day if Mario reads the recovery Air Slash.
I think the match-ups either even or very barely in Shulk's favor. Mario shouldn't be able to get in easily, but both characters can just play it safe until the other messes up, and both characters hurt each other really badly in a negative state.
Offstage its anyone's game. Shulk does have to commit more to his gimps vs Mario since Mario's Up-B has a huge disjoint at the start is very fast, so once Mario with reach of the stage Shulk can't really do anything to him since Mario can just Up-B on reaction. The gimps are still doable though since Mario's recovery in terms of distance isn't that great, so if you catch him deep offstage he's pretty dead. On Marios end, he's got the cape and FLUDD, which will ruin Shulk's day if Mario reads the recovery Air Slash.
I think the match-ups either even or very barely in Shulk's favor. Mario shouldn't be able to get in easily, but both characters can just play it safe until the other messes up, and both characters hurt each other really badly in a negative state.
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Berserker.
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I never felt like Shulk had the massive advantage here. If anything, it's probably just an even match up. At best, it's Shulk's +1 advantage by by +1... I meant +0.15. If I were to give a ratio, it'd be 51:49 or 50:50.
Even if Shulk has range, Mario can take advantage of his amazing frame data and air mobility to handle Shulk. Buster/Speed could be trouble for Mario (Buster being safe on shield, speed allowing Shulk to contest Mario in air speed). They both wreck each other off stage like what relax said. They both seem to have tools to deal with each other well
I'm still sticking to +0 or +1 only because of the range advantage but honestly, I still feel like it's even
Even if Shulk has range, Mario can take advantage of his amazing frame data and air mobility to handle Shulk. Buster/Speed could be trouble for Mario (Buster being safe on shield, speed allowing Shulk to contest Mario in air speed). They both wreck each other off stage like what relax said. They both seem to have tools to deal with each other well
I'm still sticking to +0 or +1 only because of the range advantage but honestly, I still feel like it's even
Virum
Smash Ace
The latter half of that set was me being outplayed as opposed to the match-up. I could feel that everything I was doing was getting read like a book. I actually play against SilentDrumr quite a lot and we go back and fourth in the Shulk vs Mario match-up. We both agree with match-up being pretty even or very very slightly in Shulk's favour (55:45 at best).
Mario has the speed, mobility and frame data to sustain pressure versus Shulk if he's able to capitalise and get in. Mario has one of the strongest punish games in the cast despite the low damage of his attacks due to how little recovery most of his moveset has. Consequently he has more presence when approaching and comboing vs Shulk. At the same time however, due to Mario's poor range he can't be reckless in his approach or Shulk can just shield grab him or NAir out of shield to punish. Despite the nature of Shulk as a character, Mario is the one here who actually needs the more on point spacing, as Shulk outranges Mario so immensely. Mario's fireballs don't serve too well as a camping option against Shulk as Shulk can very easily just swat them away with any of his aerials and as a result it's not too hard for Shulk to edge his way into his comfortable mid-range versus Mario. Once you're in that range it's simply a matter of making use of Shulk's superior mid-range zoning to prevent yourself from being overwhelmed. Mario I feel is one of the characters where every art definitely has a good amount of utility, sometimes in unexpected ways. Shield at very low percent for example (as you see in the 2nd match of that set) is effective as it stops a lot of Mario's early combos due to his attacks dealing so little knockback and hitstun such that they become unsafe on hit and you're able to just jab or grab him immediately after, leading essentially to constant small exchanges in neutral as opposed to Mario's large punishes. Buster is good when you're at mid percent where it becomes harder for Mario to combo you, as your punishes end up hitting quite a bit harder than his. Speed, Jump and Smash all have their obvious utility.
Both characters are more than capable of punishing each other offstage. If Shulk forces Mario offstage, he can chase him down in jump and fend him away with his aerials. If Mario forces Shulk offstage he has Cape and FLUDD, as well as superior ledge punish options. Shulk in general has the easier time landing the kill due to having a larger array of reliable kill options on stage and due to his Monado Arts allowing him to be able to survive until ridiculous percents.
Oh and I'm not sure if this would be the right place but chiming in about the Doc match-up too (since Drumr also plays a pretty mean Doc), Shulk wins that match-up rather assuredly (70-30 honestly). Doc loses out on quite a few of the key things that allow Mario to perform in the match-up. Shulk can both outpace and outspace him in any art not called shield (where he can still outspace him easily) and he has an even easier time killing Doc due to Doc's awful recovery.
Mario has the speed, mobility and frame data to sustain pressure versus Shulk if he's able to capitalise and get in. Mario has one of the strongest punish games in the cast despite the low damage of his attacks due to how little recovery most of his moveset has. Consequently he has more presence when approaching and comboing vs Shulk. At the same time however, due to Mario's poor range he can't be reckless in his approach or Shulk can just shield grab him or NAir out of shield to punish. Despite the nature of Shulk as a character, Mario is the one here who actually needs the more on point spacing, as Shulk outranges Mario so immensely. Mario's fireballs don't serve too well as a camping option against Shulk as Shulk can very easily just swat them away with any of his aerials and as a result it's not too hard for Shulk to edge his way into his comfortable mid-range versus Mario. Once you're in that range it's simply a matter of making use of Shulk's superior mid-range zoning to prevent yourself from being overwhelmed. Mario I feel is one of the characters where every art definitely has a good amount of utility, sometimes in unexpected ways. Shield at very low percent for example (as you see in the 2nd match of that set) is effective as it stops a lot of Mario's early combos due to his attacks dealing so little knockback and hitstun such that they become unsafe on hit and you're able to just jab or grab him immediately after, leading essentially to constant small exchanges in neutral as opposed to Mario's large punishes. Buster is good when you're at mid percent where it becomes harder for Mario to combo you, as your punishes end up hitting quite a bit harder than his. Speed, Jump and Smash all have their obvious utility.
Both characters are more than capable of punishing each other offstage. If Shulk forces Mario offstage, he can chase him down in jump and fend him away with his aerials. If Mario forces Shulk offstage he has Cape and FLUDD, as well as superior ledge punish options. Shulk in general has the easier time landing the kill due to having a larger array of reliable kill options on stage and due to his Monado Arts allowing him to be able to survive until ridiculous percents.
Oh and I'm not sure if this would be the right place but chiming in about the Doc match-up too (since Drumr also plays a pretty mean Doc), Shulk wins that match-up rather assuredly (70-30 honestly). Doc loses out on quite a few of the key things that allow Mario to perform in the match-up. Shulk can both outpace and outspace him in any art not called shield (where he can still outspace him easily) and he has an even easier time killing Doc due to Doc's awful recovery.
erico9001
You must find your own path to the future.
Interesting. Wonderful advice as usual! I can't wait until my next Mario match.
Here's something Masonomace brought up in the customs thread that has to deal with Mario's fludd.
Here's something Masonomace brought up in the customs thread that has to deal with Mario's fludd.
Berserker.
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So... At best, it's +1 Shulk but it's mostly +0 right?
So +0 [ +1 ]?
So +0 [ +1 ]?
The_Goofyborn
Smash Cadet
Yeah, I'd vote for a 0+ for this one.
Berserker.
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Note that the numbers in a bracket mean "Arguably the MU is X" or it also means, "The MU could also be X"
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spiderfreak1011
Smash Ace
After everything i've read (and seen in terms of viewing this MU, haven't played this MU often enough to discuss anything other than the few times i fought Fenrir VII 's Mario) i definitely think this is probably even. I'd vote for +0.
Berserker.
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Changing the score to +0 then
erico9001
You must find your own path to the future.
Something I have to say is use Air Slash very sparingly as an attack move in this MU. Mario can easily fludd you off the stage if you whiff it. If you're using AAS, be especially cautious of his cape. You go quite fast forward, so if you're reversed, it's game over. Aim for the edge. If he fludds you when you whiff AAS, you're also very vulnerable to being caped. Also, this definitely applies to MAS if it applies to AS.
C0rvus
Pro Hands Catcher
I feel like using Buster against Mario is a no go. It's normally a risky play, but Mario can take punishes much further than most other characters. Stay is Speed and Jump forms, Shield at high percent. Maybe experiment for using Smash at low percent to potentially escape combos earlier? I would think that in general, staying at a range where Mario can't really hit you, but you can punish Fireballs. Idk where exactly that would be, but maybe something to try. Just some thoughts I had.
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Berserker.
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Buster is fine against Mario. The main issue with buster (which applies for every single match up) is that you need to be on-point with spacing with Shulk but other than that, it's perfectly fine imo. You just need to know where to place your hitboxes really well. Smash art should only be used once you have Mario at a disadvantage.
Shield art is really good at earlier percentages. You barely take any hitsun from Mario's moves.
Shield art is really good at earlier percentages. You barely take any hitsun from Mario's moves.
OTG Paladin
Smash Rookie
I have a lot of experience in this MU from playing Zenyou's Mario since me and him are good friends.
I have much more knowledge on this MU from the Shulk side so what I do say about the Mario side can be completely wrong. Any Mario mains that read this are more then free to correct me.
On the Shulk side, Buster, Jump, and Speed are godsends due to all of Shulk's tilts save U-tilt being safe on shield in Buster due to increased pushback on shield and Mario's mediocre run speed and Speed mode for closing the gap on Mario. Shulk N-air beats out Mario's fireballs so if Mario tends to throw alot of those out, don't be afraid to jump in with a Nair or Fair in Jump or Speed. Mario being offstage againest Shulk is a living nightmare for Mario since Shulk with Jump mode on can harass Mario freely because of Mario's mediocre air speed. Mario does have the option of going for the early Up-b to avoid getting hit again from a F-air but even then, that could be baited and punished with another forward air or an Air Slash. Also be careful when in Jump mode againest Mario in neutral as the increased fall speed will make getting out of Mario combos virtually impossible without taking 90+ percent. I have never liked Smash and Shield in this MU since Smash mode Dthrow doesnt kill until the 130s on SV unless rage is factored where it will kill between 100-130 while making Mario's USmash and Fsmash already more potent in killing then it already is. Ive died from Mario Fsmash at 30 while in Smash mode while Mario was at 70. ;-;
On the Mario side, Mario has MUCH better frame data up close and the ability to stay in Shulks face due to Shulk not having a potent landing tool or "get off me" move. Mario can also force Shulk to approach via Fireball which Shulk never wants. The biggest gripe I have in this MU on the Shulk side is that since Shulks Up-B never auto snaps to the ledge, Mario's FLUUD and Cape would eat that recovery for dinner unless perfectly spaced. I have not tested this but I have been able to escape Mario's Utilt combos after getting grabbed at 0% by jumping out after the first Utilt but even that is risky because Mario can chase Shulk with U-airs and get strings up until 90%
I would rate this MU heavily towards even as it is a MU where neither character want to be offstage and both characters having the tools to not let each other land.
EDIT: I forgot to mention Shield. I find Shield to be subpar in this MU due to a good Mario simply running away from it and also allows Mario to get his low percent combos on Shulk when Shulks already technically at kill percent. Not advised to use Shield unless Mario goes for Bthrow at the ledge at higher percents.
I have much more knowledge on this MU from the Shulk side so what I do say about the Mario side can be completely wrong. Any Mario mains that read this are more then free to correct me.
On the Shulk side, Buster, Jump, and Speed are godsends due to all of Shulk's tilts save U-tilt being safe on shield in Buster due to increased pushback on shield and Mario's mediocre run speed and Speed mode for closing the gap on Mario. Shulk N-air beats out Mario's fireballs so if Mario tends to throw alot of those out, don't be afraid to jump in with a Nair or Fair in Jump or Speed. Mario being offstage againest Shulk is a living nightmare for Mario since Shulk with Jump mode on can harass Mario freely because of Mario's mediocre air speed. Mario does have the option of going for the early Up-b to avoid getting hit again from a F-air but even then, that could be baited and punished with another forward air or an Air Slash. Also be careful when in Jump mode againest Mario in neutral as the increased fall speed will make getting out of Mario combos virtually impossible without taking 90+ percent. I have never liked Smash and Shield in this MU since Smash mode Dthrow doesnt kill until the 130s on SV unless rage is factored where it will kill between 100-130 while making Mario's USmash and Fsmash already more potent in killing then it already is. Ive died from Mario Fsmash at 30 while in Smash mode while Mario was at 70. ;-;
On the Mario side, Mario has MUCH better frame data up close and the ability to stay in Shulks face due to Shulk not having a potent landing tool or "get off me" move. Mario can also force Shulk to approach via Fireball which Shulk never wants. The biggest gripe I have in this MU on the Shulk side is that since Shulks Up-B never auto snaps to the ledge, Mario's FLUUD and Cape would eat that recovery for dinner unless perfectly spaced. I have not tested this but I have been able to escape Mario's Utilt combos after getting grabbed at 0% by jumping out after the first Utilt but even that is risky because Mario can chase Shulk with U-airs and get strings up until 90%
I would rate this MU heavily towards even as it is a MU where neither character want to be offstage and both characters having the tools to not let each other land.
EDIT: I forgot to mention Shield. I find Shield to be subpar in this MU due to a good Mario simply running away from it and also allows Mario to get his low percent combos on Shulk when Shulks already technically at kill percent. Not advised to use Shield unless Mario goes for Bthrow at the ledge at higher percents.
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Masonomace
Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
I know that you know, but Shield art completely shuts down the Mario's want for doing D-throw to Shulk because Vision or Air Slash interrupt the Utilts to come thanks to Shield's hitstun advantage. It's a thing of beauty when you condition Mario to hold shield after the Dthrow, & the 50:50 can still be in your favor because you could hold shield instead & punish oos. That or you could land & try to Jab clashing with Utilt since both are active on Frame 5. I'd rather hold shield in the 50:50 or use Vision the first time you're Dthrown to get your point across.