Manaphy & Garchomp

[RedPeppers]

As everyone who stays active in the Pokemon community knows by now, there has been alot of debate and disagreement over whether Garchomp should be in the OU tier. That is not what I want to talk about. I've been reading quite a bit of the discussion surrounding both Manaphy and Garchomp’s place on the tier list, and I came to the realization that they're extremely similar. From what I have read on Smogon the set that got Manaphy banned was not Rain/Rest. It was the Tail Glow /Surf /Ice Beam / Grass Knot set. Notice the similarities to Yache Garchomp? It is my belief that if Garchomp is allowed to stay in OU environment, then Manaphy should be placed in OU as well. I'll explain how these two Pokemon are extremely similar, and as such belong in the same tier.

Offense:
Both of these Pokemon have an unresisted moveset; in addition, both of these Pokemon carry a stat up which “Sharply Raises” their most important attack stat. This leads to an extremely potent offensive combination, and one of the main reasons Garchomp is under debate. Garchomp has no counter. Manaphy on the other hand could be easily incapacitated by the common Blissey, and quite possibly several other OU Pokemon would fair decently against it (not that I've run any calculations). Garchomp’s higher attack stats; however, make it a much more efficient sweeper. Garchomp > Manaphy offensively.

Defense:
Garchomp and Manaphy measure up quite evenly on the defensive front as well. Both of these Pokemon have a whopping 2 weaknesses. Manaphy has 4 resistances; Garchomp has 3 and one Immunity. The standard Garchomp; however, carries Yache Berry as it's item which almost completely eliminates it's largest weakness Ice. Garchomps Immunity to electric attacks is also a great asset allowing an easily predictable switch in many situations, GyaraChomp? Manaphy is no slouch when it comes to defense itself, but there isn't much to speak of. It has higher defensive stats overall albeit with a slightly lower Hp stat. Both of these Pokemon can take a good neutral hit most of the time. Defense is more a tie, Garchomp has more options switching in and pulling off an SD, and Manaphy has the higher raw stats to switch or could pull of the berry approach like Garchomp as well. Garchomp = Manaphy defensively.

As I’ve outlined above Garchomp is more of a serious threat than Manaphy. This obviously is at odds with the current tierlist, but I really couldn’t care. If someone thinks they can prove we wrong I invite them to try, and I will seriously consider their argument. I’m not arguing Garchomp should be Uber. I’m simply saying that if Garchomp stays in OU Manaphy should move to OU as well.


Edit: Since writing this I looked up the official set for Manaphy in Smogon’s strategy dex to be sure, and I was wrong the set is as follows:

Manaphy
Tail Glow Sweeper Leftovers / Life Orb
Timid

Moveset EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

~ Tail Glow
~ Rest
~ Surf
~ Ice Beam / Grass Knot


This set was designed for Ubers, and isn’t as efficient in the OU environment where there are several Pokemon that resist the Ice / Water attack type combination Tentacruel, Starmie, Milotic, Vaporeon are the most common. Slowking from BL would work admirably too. The Set ends up looking a lot like Rest Talk Suicune good for stalling, but far from unbeatable.



I know I'm not a great writer or anything, so don't bother to tell me I suck. If there are any errors please point them out, I'm sure I made quite a few. Like I said in the article I'd love opinions, and welcome debate on the subject.

 

[Vro]

You didn't bring up their weather abusing similarities. It was a pretty good read, altho it wasn't very compelling on either Garchomp's or Manaphy's side. Damage calcs, OU encounter examples, clearer stat comparison, etc, would be helpful. I suggest posting this on Smogon when you refine it tho.

 

[RedPeppers]

Thanks for the ideas, I just kind of jotted this out fast, and wanted to get it out. I'm aware it needs some significant improvements. I was considering posting it on smogon if I ever completed it, not sure if they'd bother to listen due to the fact I just joined over there, and have a total of one post.

 

[whiterob]

I agree with much of what you said and I thought of a few other things that you didn't mention

In favor of Manaphy being OU:
Manaphy has no base 120 stabbed attack like Garchomp.
Garchomp has 2 more speed points. This is important because Chomp can outspeed things that can hurt Manaphy. Example: Specsmence can speed tie and hit Manaphy with Draco meteor.

Against Manaphy being OU:
Garchomp can be Intimidated to lower his attack. There is no special equivalent of Intimidate.

Overall I agree with your opinion though.

 

[TehBo49]

You bring up good points & I kinda agree with you. But I think the difference is that Garchomp has a very abusable weakness to Ice type attacks. Special sweepers with Ice Beam & properly distributed EVs can kill it fairly quickly & strong ones like Alakazam can OHKO it. Manaphy lacks this weakness.

 

[RedPeppers]

It's like I pointed out in the OP, Yache Chomp is wayy different that a chomp without the berry. It almost totally elimates the weakness for the first hit. Basically the only thing you can't switch in on is an Uber powerful Ice Shard.

Thanks for the comments guys they've been much appreciated and very helpful. I may update tomorrow if I have time.

 

[TombStone]

Oh, this is a good topic. You should mention diversity in movesets. Some pokemon are better because they're unpredictable.

On your Defense argument, you didn't mention Manaphy's Rain/Rest abuse. That gives it a greater recovery ability. Garchomp isn't too great with the healing moves.

 

[0RLY]

Manaphy lives forever with support from Kyogre's rain. I think Manaphy would perform adequately in both OU and Uber environments. Garchomp isn't broken enough to get moved up to Uber tier. Dragon types are common on OU teams and Ice attacks are abundant. Plus, it usually needs sandstorm from ttar to boost it's sp.def+yache to take an Ice attack. If Garchomp is that much of an issue for you, use a Trick Room team or use Mamoswine.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Bump for relevance

 

[sonofthesky]

Yet, Zangoose is still BL.

Furcking smogon.