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Lucina vs DK match up?

chronoboy

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I have a friend who mains DK and we’re usually pretty evenly matched, but recently he’s made noticeable improvement and plays more defensively. When he’s being aggressive, it’s not that hard to land hits, but defensively I’m suddenly fighting it hard to land anything safe.

He has a ton of reach on the ground, so even well-spaced attacks like Fair or f tilt can be punished out of shield. I usually try to get in close to start up tilt juggling, but he’s gotten a lot better at keeping me from getting inside and the darn bury move with it’s I-frames is ridiculous. All of his hyper armour moves are pretty tough honestly.

Because his long arms makes his defense tough to crack, I mostly have to rely on fighting him in the air, counters and edge guarding when he’s not being aggressive.

Lucina apparently has a big advantage in this matchup, but he’s been giving me trouble recently. Anyone know how I can take advantage of this matchup?
 

Milo AKA Papa

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I definitely wouldn't say Marcina has a super big advantage in the MU. They definitely win but only slightly. DK's superior range makes Neutral really tough and you're forced to respect his options. That being said a lot of his attacks are negative in hit at low % which means it's super important to capatlize on that, as well as Nair being both safe and a huge combo starter on him. Even when his hits aren't negative on hit he can't convert a string or juggle on his long ranged tools to keep us away like ftilt and bair, while DK is super susceptible to Nair chains so we convert a hit on him into more damage than he could on us. DK is in constant risk of losing a stock when we win neutral vs him. Don't try to challenge him while he's juggling us, we have no way to contest with his up air or back air. Simply avoid him as best you can by using a platform or by escaping to ledge. Be very aware of DK's positioning when you're offstage in a spot to be gimped/edge guarded. He has amazing drift for a heavy and can use his Bair to quickly smack you away as well as is down b with good timing trading with dolphin slash to spike marcina. DK cant really go deep to edge guard but if you try to drift away toward the blast zone he can easily chase after you there. The same however goes for him, don't let DK breathe offstage. Counter absolutely invalidates his recovery, be aware of his position and angle of how he'll up b and simply countering over snd over again will always do the trick. Overall it's an MU that snowballs hard once one of the two gets in, but Marcina's advantage state snowballs significantly harder than DK's advantage state vs marcina. As long as you're spacing is decent he shouldn't be able to grab you as well. Since our tilts and aerials spaced well or crossed up will be out of his shield grab range.

If you have any specific questions with this you're free to ask
 
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chronoboy

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Thanks, that’s certainly good advice! For some reason it took me forever to realize I could just hang on the edge and quickly let go and counter when he does his up B, I’ll give it a shot next time. I do have a habit of trying to challenge when being juggled I need to break. Few questions though.
What do you mean exactly by “negative hit” and how would I capitalize on that? You also mention him being susceptible to nair. Are you referring to chaining SH Nair combos at early %? Lastly, is it a bad idea to approach from overhead?

His up tilt seems to cover him pretty well, even making it difficult to do one of my bread and butter moves: a SH overhead mix up with dair or bair. Plus I usually land very close, making it easy to punish.
 

Milo AKA Papa

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Negative on hit, which means when he hits us we'll be able to move freely while he is still in the attacks animation in someway. This isn't saying to purposefully get hit at low %s, but when you do, you're more than likely being given a huge chance to close the gap between the two of you. It's a huge flaw in DK's character and neutral. Yes, I am! DK is big combo food for Nair chains with having such a big hurt box and no quick escape option when he gets hit. SH FF nair chains will eat him up and you can carry him offstage a lot of the time to start the easy process of edge guarding. I wouldn't advice approach from overhead. His up tilt up smash and up air are all things we can't challenge if the dk is paying attention and not mashing. Wait until he does something unsafe either on hit like I just discussed or on unsafe on shield, namely dash attack, one of DK's best friends. An amazing combo strated but his dash attsck is very unsafe if we shield it and gives you another chance to hard punish either way nair (again) if at low %s or if he's at kill %s you can up smash or up b his dash attack after its blocked for the kill
 

Flowen231

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Apr 20, 2015
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The reason Lucina wins the match up by a lot is because she is one of the best jugglers in the game and DK has some of the worst landing options. He is slow, big body, and has no real way to contest you from above that you can't beat out with an up tilt, an f tilt, or an up air. His safe neutral tools are also very limited, so even if he has intangible hands and out ranges you he only has so many safe options against you in neutral, all of which can be punished by your up b out of shield. All you have to do to make DK's life miserable is to get him above you, react to his options to make sure he can never land on stage, and then when he finally decides to drift towards the ledge, swat him away. If at this point you saw him burn his jump as a result of failing to escape the juggle, you have a guaranteed edge guard with counter.
 
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Milo AKA Papa

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You also have to remember the opposite is true as well though. Marcina lacks landing options and DK's ability to juggle them is really good. It's not like DK has nothing when being juggled. B-Reverse for down b and neutral b are very good for him and side b giving armor is nothing to be ignored since all of these options heavily punish Marcina if their juggling is misspaced or mistimed. Also, only a poorly spaced aerial and tilt as well as DA can be punished by Dolphin Slash OoS. If DKs spaces these options all we can do is walk to close the gap, they can't Up-B it. And again, with DA it's always significantly better to Nair OoS instead
 

Flowen231

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I'll be honest, I never have been, nor have I ever seen a tournament video of DK juggling lucina for an extreme amount of time the same way he gets juggled. And in my experience escaping disadvantage vs dk isn't very difficult because he's slow enough to the point where you can drift away and get into a position where you can fair or bair him at an angle that he can't reach. You're also giving DK's landing options too much credit. Side B is super laggy and doesn't have a hitbox bellow him, all that will accomplish is DK gets himself hit then frame trapped. DK's down air isn't a very big hitbox, it can be easily out spaced. B reversing giant punch and down B are are also not very good options vs lucina since giant punch has no hitbox bellow, and like side b is a very laggy move, and down b has an even smaller pair of hitboxes than down air. DK also does not move very far when he B reverses.

The bit about his tilts being safe is also false, all of his tilts are punishable with a fair or bair oos. lucina on the other hand can safely use f tilt and d tilt when properly spaced as long as you aren't attacking his back, and excluding dair all of her aerials are safe enough to spot dodge cancel faster than anything DK can do OOS. The real threat when facing DK is his grab mixup, you can punish both his grabs and his non grab approaches but you can't do both simultaneously, and that's the meat of the match up.

As long as you have a really good grasp of lucina and the fundamentals, pay close attention to what DK is doing, and react properly this match up is very one sided in lucina's favor.

chronoboy chronoboy It's understandable if your friend is playing different all of a sudden, getting used to a new play style when you're so used to him using another can be a pain in the ass, but once you adapt it should be uphill from there.
 

Milo AKA Papa

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I'll be honest, I never have been, nor have I ever seen a tournament video of DK juggling lucina for an extreme amount of time the same way he gets juggled. And in my experience escaping disadvantage vs dk isn't very difficult because he's slow enough to the point where you can drift away and get into a position where you can fair or bair him at an angle that he can't reach. You're also giving DK's landing options too much credit. Side B is super laggy and doesn't have a hitbox bellow him, all that will accomplish is DK gets himself hit then frame trapped. DK's down air isn't a very big hitbox, it can be easily out spaced. B reversing giant punch and down B are are also not very good options vs lucina since giant punch has no hitbox bellow, and like side b is a very laggy move, and down b has an even smaller pair of hitboxes than down air. DK also does not move very far when he B reverses.
To be clear, B-reversing isn't about hitting Marcina in this situation, it's about the reversed momentum to get away from them. With DK's air speed it works really well, though I can concede on the basis I probably am giving the options more credit than they deserve. I don't intend to pretend it's HARD to juggle him, just not brain dead easy.

The bit about his tilts being safe is also false, all of his tilts are punishable with a fair or bair oos. lucina on the other hand can safely use f tilt and d tilt when properly spaced as long as you aren't attacking his back, and excluding dair all of her aerials are safe enough to spot dodge cancel faster than anything DK can do OOS. The real threat when facing DK is his grab mixup, you can punish both his grabs and his non grab approaches but you can't do both simultaneously, and that's the meat of the match up.
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His F-Tilt is safe, though. His range makes it innately safe, similiar to Marcina or Shulk's moves. If his F-tilt is spaced our SH Aerial won't connect OoS. We have to drift towards them which both
Leads us very open since a rising aerial drifting towards the opponent is the most unsafe options we have in general
is unnecessary when simply walking forward and pressuring his next option is simply better without the risk
 
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Flowen231

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To be clear, B-reversing isn't about hitting Marcina in this situation, it's about the reversed momentum to get away from them. With DK's air speed it works really well, though I can concede on the basis I probably am giving the options more credit than they deserve. I don't intend to pretend it's HARD to juggle him, just not brain dead easy.
I understand that it's about the movement and not the hitbox. I'm also conveying that DK doesn't move fast enough when he B reverses, it's reactable, and therefore it's an option that works if the lucina player messes up, not an option that gets DK out of jail.

His F-Tilt is safe, though. His range makes it innately safe, similiar to Marcina or Shulk's moves. If his F-tilt is spaced our SH Aerial won't connect OoS. We have to drift towards them which both
Leads us very open since a rising aerial drifting towards the opponent is the most unsafe options we have in general
is unnecessary when simply walking forward and pressuring his next option is simply better without the risk
That is another way to get around it, but saying that the range makes it innately safe vs lucina is wrong. On a character with less range, sure. But if you look at how the move works, specifically the hitbox visualization; DK moves his body forward a lot after the f tilt and his head ends up close to the end of his f tilt's range. DK's f tilt is -18 on shield at the safest while Lucina's fair has a 6 frame startup out of jump squat. There is no range or speed issue, lucina can cover both and if she commits to it, DK straight up can't f tilt safely in neutral even if it's spaced perfectly.


EDIT: accidentally wrote response inside of the quote lol.
 
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Phatty

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When he’s being aggressive, it’s not that hard to land hits, but defensively I’m suddenly fighting it hard to land anything safe.
So this is actually a pretty common counterplay to Lucina, at least from my experience. She fares better when the opponent is rushing at her but when they start to play more passively and focus on whiff punishing she can start to struggle. What I would suggest is that you should focus on cornering your opponent rather than rushing at them. One flaw with bait-and-punish playstyles is that you have to give up some ground. Taking center stage is key because it limits where your opponent can move and evade.

he’s gotten a lot better at keeping me from getting inside and the darn bury move with it’s I-frames is ridiculous
This sounds like you are probably making your intentions a little too obvious. If you are getting beat by headbut or dashback Ftilt you can try baiting out those options. If he is shielding a lot you can use either shieldbreaker or tomahawk grabs. If he starts spotdodging you can use dancing blade. You can also try to dash at him, do a rising neutral air on his shield then drift back outside of his range. The best part about this is that you can react to any option he does reflexively. If he tries to Uspecial OOS then you can react with shield, if he shield grabs or Ftilts then you can Fsmash him. You can also try empty hopping just outside of his Ftilt range to apply pressure without getting in his face. You shouldn't overuse any of these options but you can use a mix of them (along with attacking him directly) to keep him guessing. And you can also double jump before landing to vary your timing. Also, you should get in the habit of spot dodging after falling aerials.

I'm also conveying that DK doesn't move fast enough when he B reverses, it's reactable, and therefore it's an option that works if the lucina player messes up, not an option that gets DK out of jail.
B-Reverse for down b and neutral b are very good for him and side b giving armor is nothing to be ignored since all of these options heavily punish Marcina if their juggling is misspaced or mistimed.
TBH you guys are both kind of right but I think you two are missing the big picture. B-reversing is good as a mixup but it isn't a get out of jail free card. When I juggle DK I prioritize Utilt and use Uair as a mixup. The reason for this is because committing too early with a jump gives the opponent the opportunity to either airdodge away or to reverse his momentum somehow. Dashing underneath him and sharking with Utilt gives you the opportunity to get a feel for what he's going to do and if he burns one of his options early you can react to it. Plus, Utilt beats nearly every landing hitbox DK has. I use Uair mostly as a surprise option so the opponent doesn't only expect one thing. Like, if you only Utilt then he can just neutral airdode through it then grab you or he can land on the top battlefield platform. So yeah, B-reversing isn't foolproof but if you know that your opponent is capable of it then you should keep that in mind. In general, I try to get at least two or three extra hits on a character that has a hard time landing. It's pretty hard to juggle indefinitely but two or three extra hits per juggle add up over a game so I think it's a pretty good rule of thumb.

Lastly, DK has a HARD time getting off of the ledge as well. At low percents, even a character with a bad recovery can do enough mixups to make edgeguarding less likely to be successful. Between 0-80ish% I ledgetrap and make a mental note on what my opponent favors when he recovers, and at high percents I go for the edgeguard (especially if he gets sent really far out).

EDIT: So I actually started playing DK a bit online and one of his major weaknesses is that he has ATROCIOUS out of shield options. On Ultimateframedata it says his best is spinning kong at frame 7 but that is the air version specifically and that one hits really high so it has a good chance of whiffing if he goes for it. Plus, the air version doesn't kill or really connect as well as the grounded version so it's too risky to ever justify using. The grounded spinning kong can kill but doesn't come out until frame 19 so it is really only good for punishing laggy moves. His next best one is Bair and it hits very high so it tends to whiff. Now, Marcina are pretty tall so it might not whiff against them, but it is still a pretty committal option that only works sometimes. Shieldgrabbing is really the only option DK has. As long as you space your landing aerials or buffer a spotdodge after you land then he can't immediately punish you for hitting his shield, he has to accept your shield pressure and whatever mixup you want to do. Now, he can preemptively Side-special or Uspecial if he thinks you are going to attack (like you mentioned), but these are hard reads that can be easily baited. You can jump at him and double jump right before landing (like I mentioned before), tomahawk grab, or just land in front of him and either spotdodge or dodgeroll.
 
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Phatty

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Sorry, I accidentally made two posts. Can one of the mods delete this message? I'm having a hard time doing it myself.
 
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