Lucas vs. Ness

[UmmBees]

I have been a Ness main for a while, but recently have tried playing more Lucas. Now it seems that I am at a crossroads of which character I want to play. Are there any distinct pros/cons to playing Lucas over Ness, as well as are there certain ways to play Lucas that I haven't thought of as I have been playing Lucas similar to how I play Ness.

 

[NeonApophis]

The characters utilize pretty similar tech skill, so it might not be a bad idea to just play both characters so that you have an additional counterpick option for matchups you find troublesome. I know Calabrel has been playing both recently and it seems like they do cover different matchups, but it's up to you whether to invest the time to learn both.

I don't know how you play Ness, so I'm also not sure how you have been playing Lucas, but there are probably ways to play him that you haven't thought of. Lucas is a very deep character and can be played in a wide variety of styles. The metagame is also not at all well developed at this point, so the top Lucas players have pretty different styles from each other. You can look at some videos of me (Neon), Calbrel, Oracle, Burnsy, Hammertime, and probably some other decent players to see various ways that Lucas can be played.

This video isn't like the best Lucas has ever been played or anything like that, but it seems like a pretty efficient place to start since it has two good Lucas players rather than just one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRwE1MbIN_M

You can just look around youtube or the video thread at the top of this board to find more matches.

 

[SouthernGent]

I personally think that ultimately Lucas requires more tech skill than Ness and when you get deep enough into the characters they utilize different techniques more efficiently such as Lucas with magnet pull or Ness with rising DJC. Lucas's wavedash allows him to have some great mobility and he can rush down opponents and get them stuck in long combos if you know what you are doing, I personally go for smaller combos into PK Fire resets when using Ness. But for distinct pros and cons about the character over Ness.

Pros
-Tether allows for better recovery options
-covers different match ups more efficiently
-Better mobility and combo game
-very satisfying when you get said combo game off

Cons
-PKT2 does not go as far and also does not hit as hard as Ness's making it safer for opponents to gimp PKT2 recovery attempts
-No longer has PK Frost so he can't edge guard from the middle of the stage safely like Ness can with PK Flash
-Lucas's fall speed and weight allow him to get comboed easily by the rest of the cast
-can be very frustrating trying to get to point of being able to play Lucas at a high level

if anyone notices something I missed let me know.

 

[foshio]

I play both but would say my lucas has surpassed my ness. The reason for this was Lucas is just crazy fun to play. Technique, speed and kill power makes lucas an amazing character. Ness just seems alittle bit too defensive I suppose, he punishes well but I find he cannot put up enough pressure to be intimidating. I think Lucas with his recoveries, mobility and combos is a better character.

 

[Burnsy]

Ness is really good in Project M but I feel Lucas is probably more well rounded in terms of his match-ups.

 

[SouthernGent]

^agreed, Ness does not have any match ups that are heavily in his favor (at least in my opinion). Lucas has a lot of useful tools but also can be a bit hindered by the fact that his weight/fall speed make him easily susceptible to combos.

 

[Flush 5]

Ness might be able to do this, but with Lucas it's so damn satisfying and sexy: Magnet pull > bair spike

 

[Burnsy]

Ness cant magnet pull

 

[Flush 5]

I know I meant just magnet > bair for Ness, but I see much more magnet > fair. Though i am no authority on Ness to be sure. I see a lot more SH magnet > any aerial with Ness as an approach. Does it have to do with his aerials? They mostly push away whereas Lucas can trap people with his aerials and follow up with the L-cancel > magnet pull, right?

 

[Yurya]

Lucas falls really fast. That alone makes him a top tier. Ness doesn't, and so needs broken tools to keep up which at the moment aren't completely there yet.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

as far as i've experienced, lucas has much better match-ups in general, not to mention its a little easier killing with lucas than with ness

 

[SouthernGent]

I think the closest thing Ness has to magnet > bair would be magnet > dair as an edge guard.

 

[otter]

[quote="SouthernGent, post: 16016736, member: 218607"
Cons
-PKT2 does not go as far and also does not hit as hard as Ness's making it safer for opponents to gimp PKT2 recovery attempts
-No longer has PK Frost so he can't edge guard from the middle of the stage safely like Ness can with PK Flash
-Lucas's fall speed and weight allow him to get comboed easily by the rest of the cast
-can be very frustrating trying to get to point of being able to play Lucas at a high level

if anyone notices something I missed let me know.[/quote]

Would you mind elaboarating on why Lucas requires more tech skill, and what a new Lucas should be working on?

I play Lucas and am getting worked by a friend who plays Ness. God I hate pk fire.

 

[Lukingordex]

I play Lucas and am getting worked by a friend who plays Ness. God I hate pk fire.

Just DI upwards when you get hit and PK fire wouldn't be that annoying.

 

[Eisen]

Would you mind elaboarating on why Lucas requires more tech skill, and what a new Lucas should be working on?

I play Lucas and am getting worked by a friend who plays Ness. God I hate pk fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzGFooXC-1U Watch this for getting out of PK Fire.

Lucas has a lot of tools, and it takes a long time to learn to use them. I've been playing since April or May or so, and I feel like I'm just now getting fundamentals down in unison with my knowledge of Lucas.

First, learn the basics (if you haven't already). Movement, neutral game, zoning, spacing, approaching, poking, baiting, punishing, defending, countering, comboing, pressuring, mixups, tech-chasing, DI/mechanics, ledge/offstage game, recovery, mindgames, killing. Stuff like that.

Next up is to learn how Lucas does each of those things. This takes a long time and a lot of trial and error, as well as observation. Use PK ice/freeze to zone opponents into a position where you want them, and accordingly follow up and mix it up. You'll probably want to learn of what flows into what most efficiently, and how you want to mix them up.

For example, when I have an opponent caught in my pk freeze, I rush/follow-up at them at different times, depending on what reaction I think I'll get out of them. Good options are crossing their position up with nair, djc fair, magnet (which is best if they're shielding). It's very complex but I like to think of it like this:

If they shield:
- Mix up magnet/aerial shield pressure while maintaining unpredictable movements to keep them trapped until you either land a hit from which you can combo out of, break their shield, or force one of their out-of-shield options (Bowser's Up B, for example). You can also throw in grabs randomly, but mostly I find that it's not too hard to break someone into reacting, and after some practice with tech skill, it's also fairly easy (offline) to have one of your moves hit them. Depending on where they go and your style preference, you can follow up. Lucas is notorious for being REALLY good once he gets inside someone and/or inside their heads.

If they're still stunned by pkf:
- You basically have free roam to do whatever you want. Just be aware of your position when they're in stun. Don't mis-time your follow up and get punished for it.

Other things to keep in mind:

When you learn how, uair and dair become REALLY useful tools for extending combos. Generally with uair, you'll only want to do one or two, djc-ing them into each other (or using another move like nair) before using dair to bring them back to the ground, which is where you want them. Lucas also has some great tech chase options if you know what you're doing. I'm not too good at it myself, but I try to implement pkf if I predict their tech will put them out of range of my aerials. Aerials themselves are a bit more safe/reliable though. Depending on how far you can predict your opponent will determine which moves you use. If you want to go in deep, try throwing in a dair or a magnet to extend shield pressure/launching/openings. Nair or djc fair are good too, sometimes leading into another fair or nair depending on percent. Also, DACUS is a good kill move when you launch them out of your normal range. It's super fast, pretty easy, and has a nice range that perfectly compliments the range Lucas normally would have trouble getting to.

When recovering, use zair as much as possible. PKT2/UpB leaves Lucas very vulnerable. Only use it when you have to or to throw your opponent off if they predict you're going to zair to the stage and try to attack you.

DJC a LOT. To be a good Lucas, it is essential to know how to use this. Not only how, but also when. I used to do nothing but approach with aerial magnet and djc fair. I got punished a lot for it. DJCing allows you to do multiple aerials in quick succession which aids in things like shield pressure and combos, as seen here (though this is an older version of project M so the aerials involved are a bit different for modern Lucases). DJC is also important because you can change your momentum while attacking. So you can fake an approach, and bait a reaction like shield, but move backwards mid-aerial because of the momentum change, putting you in safe range to wreak havoc on their shield.

Defending is a topic I'm not as keen on, but from what I know, Lucas' best options for dealing with pressure from the opponent involve magnet shenanigans, djc uair/nair/normal nair. I'm not too sure what else he has. Should probably work on that... Anyway, ask someone like Burnsy or Neon if you have other questions and I'm not around, or just ask in thread/Private Message and I'll try to get to you on that if they don't. If you need any help understanding something, ask away and I'll do my best to remedy it. However, keep in mind that some things take time. Learning a character like Lucas is no easy task, especially if you lack fundamentals like I used to/still kind of do lol.