Lucas v. Snake

[zen-bz-]

Thoughts on Lucas vs Snake? One of my friends likes to play as Snake but his Snake is very sub-optimal. So I don't have good MU experience against him. Playing AS him, however, I feel like, in general, his stage control abilities are quite a problem for Lucas, whose movement is ground-based. He also seems to have a great punish game against Lucas due to his weight.

Playing as Lucas, I feel like once Lucas gets in on Snake and past his traps through creative movement, his punish game against him is excellent. My descriptions of my experiences are very broad as I don't have exactly the best understanding of how the game works, which is why I'm asking for your guys' opinions.

I'm also posting the same thing in the Lucas forums to get their input as well. Again, thoughts appreciated.

 

[cisyphus]

I think without platforms Lucas can make the MU even, but with platforms snake absolutely dominates. Lucas has some trouble with vertical movement due to how much recovery he loses from using his double jump in tandem with a solid up air to approach with. PK Freeze is a really difficult thing for snake to deal with as all of his projectiles demand considerable frame commitment and Lucas's PK Freeze travels far and relatively fast, disrupting that. There's a local Lucas here where I have to go Marth against them otherwise I get PK freeze camped for 8 minutes and lose lol. The combo potential on both of them is enormous, and having a spike and a meteor in Lucas's kit helps considerably. If you can keep the pressure up on Snake and mix up when you go in, I think it can be really hard for Snake.

 

[zen-bz-]

When I went to the Lucas forums with this question, I got a response from Delta:

I actually just played that matchup for about 4 hours this weekend vsing Yata! in bracket & friendlies. Expect this post to be very long as Snake vs Lucas is a very in-depth matchup that requires patience, thought, and meticulous spacing and heavy zoning. I'll work more on this tomorrow

Here's my digression on the MU:

Neutral is the most important aspect of this matchup. This is where you will be fighting Snake the most and the area that should be focused on highly. I'll break down Snake's neutral into a few aspects- grenades, land mines, C4, and ground vs aerial game.

==

Grenades
By far, the most difficult part in overcoming Snake in this matchup. Grenades are Snake's main tool as they restrict movement and force smart decisions while punishing poor spacing and reckless aggression. IIRC, grenades come out on frame 8, which may seem like a lot of time, but is deceptively quick. They deal 12% from the explosion hit and 2-3% when thrown at a player.

Snake players will typically roll grenades down from platforms, especially at the start of a match. If you act as soon as the grenade is thrown down, you can avoid the grenade hitting you when being thrown. Furthermore, Lucas is fast enough at the start of a match to run off the Battlefield platform and punish Snake throwing a grenade downwards.

~Thrown grenades can be dealt in a number of ways~​

The best way to deal with thrown grenades is simply to shield the grenade or run away from it.

If you're close enough, you can catch the grenade by hitting A on the ground and IMMEDIATELY throwing it back or by aerial glide tossing it back. Must be within 3-4 character spaces away or else Lucas will get hit by the grenade's explosion.

There's also a precise spacing where you can PKF the grenade and stop it right in front of Snake. Sometimes it can explode on Snake as well.

~~

Now as for the grenades that Snake doesn't throw at you, these can be much more tricky to counter.

If Snake has a grenade in hand, he has the following options:

1. Throw up -> jump -> AGT
2. Shield -> WD grab grenade -> throw it or run forward and shield / air dodge near you
3. Go in shield and bait an approach

Snake can pull a grenade quickly and go right into shield if they think you're going to approach. If you don't happen to approach, this is where Snake will pick one of the first two options listed above.

The main way I've found to counter grenades is to run up next to Snake and cross him up in shield. Snake can only cipher, Dair, and Bair OoS. Lucas' jumpsquat is 2 frames faster than Snakes (4 vs 6 frames) and his aerials all come out frame 4 or 5, save for Bair. If the Snake player likes to wait for the grenade's explosion then immediately attack OoS, Lucas can beat out any of Snake's options if the Lucas player is fast enough.

Likewise, you can wait for the grenade to explode while Snake is in shield, then grab him during their shield stun or start applying pressure. Snake can't pull a grenade out in shield and it takes time to have a grenade in hand, which they can't do while being combo'd or pressured.

If Snake is landing, you have to space an Uair as to hit his lower body, just below the torso. Otherwise, you will trigger the explosion. Snake can also pull some crazy movement and will often land with his back to you, where the grenade is even more exposed.

Stages
Good stages in this matchup would be Smashville especially, PS2, FD, GHZ, and Yoshi's Island (Brawl).

Battlefield is typically a great Snake stage, but in this MU, it's only 55/45 Snake's favor on this stage.

Yoshi's Story is a toss-up, as his Ftilt, Utilt, Bair, Fair, and explosives kill very early here. It's hard to be very aggressive on this stage and proper mine, C4, and grenade placement can be extremely challenging to deal with avoiding on this stage.

Dreamland isn't impossible to win on, but it's definitely one of Lucas' least favorite stages and Snake's best stage by far. I'd say it's around 70/30 on Dreamland since there's more room to avoid explosives and going deep to ledge guard is much easier here. Beware of Snake camping the platforms.

A bit long, but do you agree with what he said here? What would you add/change regarding this info?

 

[cisyphus]

AGT is the best way of countering grenades, actually, but requires a knowledge of the grenade's timer and the spacing of Lucas's AGT (not something the character uses often). I've had one other person use it against me so far.
Snake's jumpsquat is 5 frames (airborne frame 6). Not sure if his data's righ there then.
He also misses the AGT OOS that snake can do, which is a third option and covers different spaces and is far faster than any other.
Delta also plays too aggressively and doesn't properly utilize Lucas's movement and mixups.
Dreamland can be good for lucas if he changes the above.

 

[D e l t a]

Snake's jumpsquat is 5 frames (airborne frame 6). Not sure if his data's righ there then.

I guess it got 1 frame faster since 3.0. I skimmed the Snake frame data and saw Sartron's post but didn't double check the date in comments when looking for stuff on grenades.

He also misses the AGT OOS that snake can do, which is a third option and covers different spaces and is far faster than any other.

I also mentioned AGT OOS in my post. I edited the part where I said WD grab grenade to say AD, for air dodge, after he quoted my post.

AGT grenade after Snake pulls it isn't good because if the Snake knows how to control grenades well, as you do, they will explode shortly after Lucas gets close enough to even grab it. Lucas' throw animation is garbo

Delta also plays too aggressively and doesn't properly utilize Lucas's movement and mixups.

Cuz camping Snake is ultra-lame and we both agreed to not camp each other LOL. I do need to work on my mixups however.

Dreamland can be good for lucas if he changes the above.

What do you mean by "changes the above"? Dreamland is one of Lucas' worst stages and Snake's best. It takes forever to kill Snake there, whereas Lucas will die around the same % that he does on any other stage.

 

[cisyphus]

Play more defensively and go for more gimps (mostly back air) and dreamland is fine for Lucas. He actually dies a lot later off the top.

 

[D e l t a]

You: "If you start camping we're done playing"
Me: *throws one PKF at the start to assume stage control*
You: *glares over angrily*

Besides the point, my campy Lucas sucks compared to my aggro Lucas. I just need to work on safer approaches. Letting Snake set up his wall is something I'd like to avoid

As for bair spikes, they're not that easy to do with the increased end lag and potential to SD at low % because of Cipher's low KBG. I've gotten gimped too many times by that so I play it safe now. It's better to use Dair and force Snake to keep C4'ing rather than risk it all for a Bair spike.

 

[cisyphus]

Well yeah, 'cause it's potent if I'm not playing sharp and I was playing awful that tournament