Lucas Matchups/Discussion Thread

[TechnoMonster]

Posting Rules: Post your experience in the matchup (who you've played), and your Lucas tournament history if we don't know it, and why your advice has merit in the matchup you're posting about. As a rule on-line, if we haven't played you, then you are as good as your tournament experience. Just because you don't have tournament experience doesn't mean you're not good, but you have no proof that you are, and that burden is on you.

This thread is fairly self explanatory. For newer players, the matchups work on a ten-sum rating scale (both numbers add up to ten), and a good way to rate them is to pick how many matches a certain character should win out of ten games. For instance, a matchup of 7-3, Marth vs. Bowser, would indicate that Marth should win most games, but Bowser can win some and a more skilled player could win a tournament set with Bowser. EB360, I know we're old school gangsters, but 8-3 and 7-4 do not add up to ten. All matchups are listed Lucas first, opponent second. I'm going to kick us off, but I'll try to remain neutral and act as moderator in this thread because if I disagree and am wrong, obviously this thread is going to be pretty worthless.

Bowser 5:5
Don't underestimate this fat turtle, he'll **** you up. All of his old melee tricks got better, like Up-B out of shield to counter your approach, Klaw (amazing), fire breath (too good), even down-B got a buff, and he can KO you much sooner than you can him. Your saving graces? Your spike, your combos, and your PK fire. Bowser vs. Lucas is a very fun and intense match, and I recommend you study it over blowing it off.

Captain Falcon 8:2
Falcon gets *****, no johns, I love Falcon, I used to main him, but it's very much one-sided ****.

Diddy Kong 3:7 or 4:6
Diddy definitely has the advantage here, with Glide-Toss setups, dash attack combos and banana game in general, as well as some good powerful attacks. Lucas is also one of the few characters that has trouble gimping his recovery as well.

Donkey Kong 5:5 or 6:4
A tough fight; you NEED to camp here, and DK is very heavy and very powerful, giving Lucas a lot of trouble.

Falco 5:5, 4:6, or 6:4
An interesting matchup. Falco can do low-percent grab combos against you, has good aerial priority and spacing, but is slow on the ground and vulnerable to some punishment and many combos. This matchup really only favors Lucas if you get good at gimping him with the magnet off the stage, otherwise it is even or worse.

Fox 10:0
Hahahah just kidding, more like 7:3 or 8:2. Lucas can effectively camp against Fox, and really only has to worry about Fox's upsmash, having good counters to and priority over the rest of his arsenal.

Ganondorf: 9:1
Lucas excels at camping and beating up Ganondorf, and can avoid his smashes and b moves in most cases fairly well. I just don't think Dorf has much potential against camping, and doesn't have many options against a good approach game.

Game & Watch: 4:6
Game and Watch has good range, approaches and strong setups from a downthrow, although Lucas isn't one to be consistently grabbed. Lucas' smashes and lag punishing are effective, but both PK fire and PK thunder can be bucketed, PK thunder for a full bucket and a gimp, effectively ****** Lucas for 2 stocks. On the stage, it's not an uphill battle, but off the side you're in trouble and G&W is not. The key here is to use the huge priority on your upsmash to get the KO at the right percent.
Thanks Levitas.

Ice Climbers: 5:5
Ice climbers have some trouble killing and edge guarding Lucas, and your Neutral air can separate them. I think Lucas' approach game may give him a slight advantage here, but the climbers have some ridiculous grab combos.

lke: 7:3
The more you become aware of what Ike is capable of, the more you see that while he has many options, Lucas has many answers. A skilled Ike should be able to win some games in tournament against Lucas, but I think Lucas takes the gold in most cases.

Jigglypuff: 8:2
I had to make one controversial one :D. I don't think Jiggly is an adequate answer to Lucas in brawl. Your ranged game is somewhat negated by Jiggly's mobility, but the biggest thing is that Lucas can KO jiggly at ridiculous percents like 60 with upsmash, or even as low as 120 with a down throw, and Jiggly has to land a rest or powerful smash (all his smashes are punishable by stick) to beat you. Jiggly can also be PK thundered to hell off the stage because she loses so much height from air-dodging it.

King Dedede: 5:5
DeDeDe has nice grab combos and a nice diverse move set, and minions are annoying, but nothing that Lucas can't handle, and Lucas can combo him back effectively. Still, DeDeDe has a great off-stage game against Lucas, and you can't count him out for no reason, plus his fatness can take a lot of sticks.

Kirby 6:4
Kirby has a lot of good things going for him, but his light weight, mediocre spacing, and lack of a good approach hurt him a pinch in this matchup.

Link 6:4
If you don't take this matchup seriously you can definitely lose, but I think it's close and Lucas will win more than he bites it. Link is pretty good, but suffers from the same level of punish ability that he did in Melee. Lucas can combo him fairly well as well, and if Lucas gets underneath, Link is in real trouble.

Lucario 5:5
Lucario has some good air-combos and grab setups, and a good spacing and projectile game, but Lucas can negate his high-damage advantage with upsmash and stick, absorb an aura sphere for almost a full heal, and Lucas can edgeguard him fairly well with thunder gimps, and just grabbing the stage and standing then throwing him off again.

Lucas: 5:5
Ditto ditto

Luigi 4:6
Luigi can space effectively and pressure Lucas fairly well, and his fast roll is tough to match up with.

Ness 4:6
Ness holds a small advantage over Lucas with his anti-projectile game, high priority forward air, and good grab setups.

Mario 4:6
Cape is pretty good against Lucas, Mario can also FLUDD your recovery, and space you effectively with back-airs. A tough match for sure.

Marth 5:5 or 4:6
Very good Marths can mess you up the same way they messed up Ness in melee, but Lucas has a strong KO game, a strong punishment game, and a strong off-stage game against Marth.

Meta Knight 5:5 or 4:6
Meta's approach and grabs are all very solid and he's hard to punish effectively or hit with PK fire, but Lucas is more powerful and can effectively build damage with Neutral airs, and can KO at low percents like 90, 80, and 70. This is a HARD match, but no problem with meta is insurmountable.

Pikachu 6:4
After playing a few very good Pikas I'm convinced that Lucas has a small advantage over everyone but Anther.

Olimar 6:4
Lucas can really shut down Olimar with Neutral air to forward tilt, can recover well, and can generally gimp Olimar well, but Olimar has a lot of range and power on all of his moves and builds damage very well.

Pit 4:6 or 3:7
GofG corrected me: Pit ****s Lucas up.

Lucas, in no way, has an advantage against Pit. The only time Pit should die early from Lucas is if he's shield grabbing shamelessly. Lucas has no guaranteed setups into kill against Pit. Pit can mirror Lucas's recovery. Also, if Lucas is without a jump, he gets bair'ed for free. Considering Lucas has to DI down and away during at least one part of his up-b, a bair gets extremely serious. Pit's d-tilt punishes tether (most characters can but just wanted to point this out) with a small chance of spiking. Lucas isn't fast enough to follow Pit's up-b around the stage.

In theory, it's even since you think you can bat/u-smash Pit at 70 and he'll die. However, a good Pit won't be getting hit by these moves. It's a one-way edgeguarding street. He can edgeguard you nasty but you can't really mess with his ledge play. The gayest thing about this matchup is Pit's back roll. It's always the correct answer. Lucas is probably one of the best close range characters in the game but all of his mixup is trumped by Pit's back roll. I'd call the matchup 4-6 or 3-7. If you camp him with no remorse the entire match, you have a chance. If you try to force your way in, you get *****. Unfortunately, even though you **** in close range, Pit is just so much safer up close. Pit mirror'ing your recovery is just the gayest though. If he doesn't wanna do that, he can just shoot your up-b and you die. Meanwhile you're neutraling, f-tilting and setting up for side smashes the whole match and he's blocking and rolling away, living till 140 every stock (at which point you're looking for those d-throw deaths). Basically, if the Pit plays correctly, you shouldn't win.

Lucas still messes up nubby Pits for sure though.

Pokemon Trainer 6:4
-Squirtle 5:5
Thunder attacks to extra damage.
-Ivysaur 7:3
Lucas Used PK Fire! It's Super-Effective! Ivysaur used Vine Whip! Lucas grabbed the edge! It's Super-Effective! Ivysaur Faints.
-Charizard 5:5 or 6:4
Lucas can reflect Rock Smash with his stick. Theoretically, Ice is super-effective, so uh zomg PK freeze.
Thanks to

R.O.B. 5:5 or 6:4
This really depends on the R.O.B. and how good you are in the particular matchup, but both sides have a slew of good tricks to use against each other, and this really comes down to your adaptability and matchup knowledge.

Samus 7:3
Samus really can't KO Lucas effectively enough to win against him.

Sheik 6:4
Needles are annoying and Shiek can follow up her tilts with some nice combos, but overall, I think Lucas' grab game and PK fire game overwhelms her, and Sheik has to take too many risks to KO Lucas.

Snake 4:6
Snake is really really good, but I think Lucas can win this for sure. This is Lucas' hardest matchup to learn, but not his hardest matchup. Always remember that Snake has some lag, but not a lot of lag, so choosing the right attack to punish him is your biggest priority, and when in doubt, just throw a PK Fire.

Toon Link 5:5 or 6:4
Lucas can effectively move around projectiles and reflect them, approach, and counter Toon Link, but in any kind of air battle Lucas is going to get messed up. On the whole, I think the bad outweighs the good and you beat Toon Link as an experienced Lucas more than you lose, but you defiantly need to work on your mind games against a skilled TL.

Sonic 7:3
Just cuz I can't beat Sonic doesn't mean that Sonic doesn't suck, lol. Things to watch out for include grabs and spin-dashes.

Peach 8:2
I think this is one of the biggest counters in the game. My experience in this matchup is against Peapo, a top ranked Peach from Vegas who just won a doubles tournament and placed very well in singles with Peach, and can beat me Ness vs. Lucas handily, however I've beaten him both Ranked and friendly with Lucas because PK fire dominates every aspect of Peach's game, and she doesn't have really any tricks to get around Lucas' approach aside from her slow-ish forward air.

Wario 4:6 or 3:7
Waaaaaaaario has many good setups and mindgames against Lucas, and is so fast in the air and can get around your spacing games so well. It's not so much that Lucas can't camp and build damage effectively, but I struggle to KO at any reasonable percent because Wario is so slippery.

Wolf 6:4
Lucas is pretty good at punishing and spacing Wolf's aggressive style, but this is definitely a matchup that requires some study, and it's easy to lose if you get knocked off the stage a lot.

Yoshi 5:5
Yoshi isn't too bad against Lucas. Eggs are good for camping because they go over PK fire, Yoshi has good aerials and setups with his back-air, and plenty of good tricks in Brawl. Surprisingly, you'll find that Yoshi has more priority in the air than you'd think, his neutral air is very fast, and your forward air isn't a very good approach because it's so easily spaced. For now, I'll put this as even, but with time I expect it to go in Lucas' favor.

Zelda 7:3 or 6:4
You can absorb Din's fire, and really after that it's a pretty advantaged matchup for Lucas in the air and on the ground, because Zelda isn't too fast.

Zero Suit Samus
I don't know enough about this matchup to comment.

 

[Shibby]

Nice list!

I agree with Luigi being a tough match. Marth I think would be at least 4:6 because he has so much range/priority.

I believe both Links would be 5:5's because of their physical projectiles.

 

[Hardcorenesser]

I'd say ike is 6:4, cuz he has a sword and that bair. never underestimate ike. also, pretty much all his attacks cover overhead so you probably shouldn't approach from above.

you also might wanna say something about Lucas being able to reflect (with fsmash) charizard's rock smash and that pk fire is "super effective" in ivysaur so it does more damage and has increased knockback. also, all lucas' psi moves fall under the category of electricity type moves (if you don't believe me test it on olimar's yellow pikmin) so they **** squirtle.

and dsmash ***** sonic (especially when he is rolling) but i think it is 6:4 against a good sonic

i beat simna's wario with lucas so i think that is a 5:5

yoshi can chain. when he grabs you, he just chews you til you escape then runs forward and grabs you again. you probably shouldn't worry about how much percent it gives you (not much) but rather that it gets you all the way to the edge of the stage. so avoid the grab at all costs. and you can reflect his eggs with fsmash. and avoid SH dairs AT ALL COSTS. it gives you like 40 ****ing percent. if the yoshi is using egg roll, then dsmash his *** off

very nice info btw





very nice

 

[Trozz]

My input (pretty much copy pasta from another post I made):

Lucas Vs
Falco, advantage: Falco. Falco will spam the Shine, making it very hard to get good usage out of Lucas's projectiles.
Ganon, advantage: Lucas. I haven't played against any Ganons that are pro, but he doesn't seem to have anything going for him. PK Wavebounce!
Ice Climbers, advantage: neutral. Lucas has better projectiles and will force IC to close distance. Any of Lucas's smashes will devastate either Nana or Popo. On the other hand, ICs can combo Lucas effectively and the ice projectiles cannot be absorbed.
Ivysaur, advantage: Lucas. PK Fire equals razor leaf in terms of priority, but PK Fire casts much faster. Ivysaur will have to resort to other attacks. Lucas can easily escape bullet seed. Ivysaur has a horrible recovery and is easily edgeguarded.
Jiggly, advantage: Lucas. Jigglenaught doesn't have as much knockout potential. PK Thunder is hard to evade with a floaty character like Jiggles.
Kirby, advantage: Lucas Kirby has gotten a lot stronger since Melee, but he has no clear advantage over Lucas. Kirby's Final Cutter can be absorbed.
Link, advantage: Link. Link wins the projectile war, forcing Lucas to close range. Although the characters are roughly even in terms of power, Link will be able to manipulate the game more with his projectile spamming power.
Lucario, advantage: Lucas. Lucario's d-air is out prioritized by both PK Thunder and Lucas's u-smash. The dark orb can be absorbed, replenishing a huge amount of health. Lucario gets smashed up easily and Lucas smashes up very hard.
Mario, advantage: Neutral. Mario's cape deflects projectiles. Fortunately, PK Fire pushes you back enough that you won't be hit.
Ness, advantage: Lucas. Lucas has a better recovery. Ness has a better throw, but it's really short ranged. Each have a couple other advantages over the other. Hexagons are way cooler than the yoyo, although Ness has a better stage entrance and a Mr. Saturn shirt.
Peach, advantage: ??? Peach doesn't seem to get much play since she got balanced from Melee.
Pikachu, advantage: ??? I need to play more pro Pikachus.
Pikmin/Olimar, advantage: Olimar. Pikmin thrown cause PK Fire to fail. Olimar can easily grab, has long ranged smashes, and a good ranged game. Lucas will be forced to go on the offensive. As long as Olimar is on the ground, he has the advantage. The trick here is to get him in the air or off the stage.
Pit, advantage: Neutral. Pit has a very quick projectile, but it can be absorbed (if you can predict it). His shield (and possibly his circular saw) deflect spells (if he can predict it). Pit's smashes are fast, hard hitting, and have nearly no lag after them, but they are rather short ranged.
R.O.B., advantage: Neutral. ROB can punish Lucas with lasers (absorb them!) and gyros, but Lucas can play the ranged game just as well, if not better. ROB has very mean aerial attacks that will destroy Lucas. ROB's d-smash murders Lucas. Lucas shouldn't have any trouble hitting ROB, since he's massive.
Samus, advantage: ??? You can absorb the charge shot, but most Samus players just spam the smash missiles. I don't know how this would play out.
Shiek, advantage: Neutral. Shiek is fast and still powerful (although, no longer god-tier). Shiek's biggest problem will be getting around the fire and thunder spells. Lucas's n-air could be very good here.
Snake, advantage: Neutral. Snake might have issues closing distance unless he knows how to mortar slide. PK Thunder can detonate claymores. Lucas can easily punish Snake's recovery. Although Snake's melee combo is hard hitting, it can also be prevented with fire spamming. Unfortunately for Lucas, Snake takes forever
Sonic, advantage: ??? No idea, but this one seems neutral. Sonic's roll has lousy priority.
Squirtle, advantage: Squirtle. The Squirtle will have to play good to beat a Lucas, but he is fast enough to do so. Squirtle is fast enough to continuously deal aerial attacks to knock Lucas out and evade spells. Lucas has a huge delay after failing to land u-smash or a throw that Squirtle can jump all over and punish.
Toon Link, advantage: Toon Link. TL has sick projectiles. Lucas can't absorb anything, so he's once again forced to close range. People who can short hop TL's b-air will slaughter Lucas.
Wario, advantage: Neutral. Wario has a lot of things going for him. Easy ways to get damage, stupid high priority with bite, insane air control, massive recovery, heavy weight, an instant kill skill every minute, and good smash attacks. He's also fat, an easy target, short ranged, and low priority on everything else he does. Warios will have to play a careful game, probably with lots of d-air d-smash hits.
Wolf, advantage: Wolf. Projectile deflection, a mean ranged attack, and even meaner melee attacks. Unless the person using Wolf doesn't know his character, Lucas is in for pain.
Yoshi, advantage: ??? Who plays this goofy dino?
Zelda, advantage: Lucas. Din's Fire is pretty much useless here, so Zelda will have to go with a different plan. Wavebouncing ensures that you won't be hit by your own PK Fire.0
ZSS, advantage: ??? I play a lot of ZSS, but I haven't seen this matchup enough to comment.

 

[Galeon]

Lucas, in no way, has an advantage against Pit. The only time Pit should die early from Lucas is if he's shieldgrabbing shamelessly. Lucas has no guaranteed setups into kill against Pit. Pit can mirror Lucas's recovery. Also, if Lucas is without a jump, he gets bair'ed for free. Considering Lucas has to DI down and away during at least one part of his up-b, a bair gets extremely serious. Pit's d-tilt punishes tether (most characters can but just wanted to point this out) with a small chance of spiking. Lucas isn't fast enough to follow Pit's up-b around the stage.

In theory, it's even since you think you can bat/u-smash Pit at 70 and he'll die. However, a good Pit won't be getting hit by these moves. It's a one-way edgeguarding street. He can edgeguard you nasty but you can't really mess with his ledge play. The gayest thing about this matchup is Pit's back roll. It's always the correct answer. Lucas is probably one of the best close range characters in the game but all of his mixup is trumped by Pit's back roll. I'd call the matchup 4-6 or 3-7. If you camp him with no remorse the entire match, you have a chance. If you try to force your way in, you get *****. Unfortunately, even though you **** in close range, Pit is just so much safer up close. Pit mirror'ing your recovery is just the gayest though. If he doesn't wanna do that, he can just shoot your up-b and you die. Meanwhile you're neutraling, f-tilting and setting up for side smashes the whole match and he's blocking and rolling away, living till 140 every stock (at which point you're looking for those d-throw deaths). Basically, if the Pit plays correctly, you shouldn't win.

 

[Earthbound360]

Idk why, but I just hate Dedede with Lucas. I always have to go back to Ness for this. His ftilt outrange PK Fire I think, and his bair is so annoying. His waddle dees eat up my PK Fire approach and even when I bstick, I cant get in some hits. Id say about 4:7 in Dedede's favor

Sonic however has NOTHING onl Lucas IMO. I think 8:3 is good. His dsmash and tilt will pull him out of nearly any speedy ground approach he throws at you, and pushing Sonic away from the stage after his spring with PK Thunder just seems so effective. It leads into his fairs quite well and Lucas' fair> Sonics.

 

[Levitas]

LOL, I was gonna tell you off for putting lucas at the advantage against Pika, but then I realized the only pika I play is Anthers, and you made a special note.

I'm also thinking against luigi's more like a 6:4 for lucas, and rob's between 4:6 and 3:7 for rob.

Game and watch is considered a lucas counter by some people. it's probably a 3:7 for G&W, but it's not insurmountable. The game after I got wrecked by the game and watch in question (Droly, who came to our tournament with vidjo), I two stocked him. But his stuff outranges lucas, and with the lack of cooldown on his moves, coupled with the bucket gimp (that effectively costs lucas 2 lives), game and watch has the edge.

 

[TechnoMonster]

I'd like to hear more about how you play against Robbo. I have a few little tricks, like full hopping over called lasers for free jump kicks and n-airs, and stage spiking or spiking him several times consecutively, and shielding the gyro, and I win a almost every time against R.O.B. players my caliber and maybe a little better.

 

[x9whitey9x]

Wait.. This is probably a noob question, but do the different types of attacks really do more damage/knockback against the pokemon? I wouldn't think so, but it would make sense.