Lucario's improvements made him just "too good"?

[DoubleAgentXies616]

What are your thoughts?
You have seen him in action.
You have seen his moves in Brawl; he was improved in a HUGE way in PM.
You have fought against him, you have chosen him to fight.

My personal opinion is, that the improvements Lucario received in PM is just too much.
Don't get me wrong, I think they're cool, but all you need to K.O. is land a jab and his "auto-cancel" system will do the rest. It's challenging to master this, I know, but the results are just not fair.
He didn't have a meteor in Brawl, his Aura Ball was not a friggin Spirit Bomb that took NO EFFORT on charging and had a huge hitbox/knockback!
It just makes me mad, because as much as you can like Lucario, you can't possibly think it's NOT an easy way to win. He was made much faster, he now has control of his oponents in mid-air AND the ground, and still you're giving him two Aura Balls, and a Up-Special that does damage?
Wait wait wait, what did I miss here? That sounds about twice or 3 times as powerful as the Lucario I knew from Brawl!

 

[yogurtgun1245]

Mainly because Project M isn't Brawl. Lucario is certainly a good character. However, he isn't close to being what I'd consider, "too good."

 

[G13_Flux]

i definitely think that he is very good. but you definitely need more than just a jab to KO. not all of his moves auto cancel seamlessly into one another. its like how fox and falcos shine pillars actually are not perfectly pillars, because with a well timed spot dodge or quick OOS option, the opponent can escape. lucario is the same way. many of his jab > tilt transitions work without the opponent being able to escape, but the transition into his smashes is not quite the same. if you place your shield correctly, two jabs and a tilt will not necessarily shield poke you, and you will be able to dodge and further OHCs with good timing. not only does this put the emphasis on lucario knowing his opponents quickest OOS routes and knowing how to vary his moves in order to punish them likewise, but this also puts the emphasis on the opponent knowing lucarios good set ups, and properly avoiding them. if you can keep lucario locked down, then he will have no aura bomb to unleash on you, and know special cancels that will allow him to lengthen combos. if he is hitting you enough to the point where u are getting aura bombed a lot, then you probably deserve to be aura bombed at the point, as he has most likely gotten you into kill range anyways, and has built up the momentum to finish you off. he definitely has his weaknesses, like having very CCable attacks (jab and tilts), and having limited defensive options (particularly with a small shield). he is also particularly susceptable to characters that have very good OOS options, like DK, bowser and GW.

edit: also, characters with good projectiles can really shut down his approach if he does not have a charge saved up, as his air mobility is sort of atrocious.

 

[Spiffykins]

His specials go a long way in compensating for his poor aerial mobility, which I suppose was an intentional part of his design. Sure, you can't weave in and out Jigglypuff style, but it's still exactly why I mention b reversal so often when it comes to Lucario. Seriously guys, use it.

Also, Lucario isn't even very close to being "too good" (anymore). Too fun maybe, but you don't get flack for that.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

What are your thoughts?
You have seen him in action.
You have seen his moves in Brawl; he was improved in a HUGE way in PM.
You have fought against him, you have chosen him to fight.

My personal opinion is, that the improvements Lucario received in PM is just too much.
Don't get me wrong, I think they're cool, but all you need to K.O. is land a jab and his "auto-cancel" system will do the rest. It's challenging to master this, I know, but the results are just not fair.
He didn't have a meteor in Brawl, his Aura Ball was not a friggin Spirit Bomb that took NO EFFORT on charging and had a huge hitbox/knockback!
It just makes me mad, because as much as you can like Lucario, you can't possibly think it's NOT an easy way to win. He was made much faster, he now has control of his oponents in mid-air AND the ground, and still you're giving him two Aura Balls, and a Up-Special that does damage?
Wait wait wait, what did I miss here? That sounds about twice or 3 times as powerful as the Lucario I knew from Brawl!

If we were talking about 2.1 then i might slightly agree on some things, and that would probably just be his down-b being extremly good.
Now this is 2.5b, i personally think that the PM team reincarnated Lucario to what he should have been in Brawl, a combo character, so i just want to get that out of the way. The other thing is that you cannot just press buttons like you would in another FG and win because everything cancels into everything, because it doesn't, you have to worry about shield-stun, you have to worry about the diverse cast that almost all have some way to get out of shield in a reliable way, thus switching back to the neutral position or worse completly changing the momentum to his side. You have to worry about DI, worry about range on any attack because of priority, worry about CC, i could go on

Lucario has to really work for his kills, and he has to work for his charges, it's even harder to use his super aura ball because of how slow the start up is, and the fact that the huge ball is slow as hell and doesn't travel much. Because of his recent changes from his 2.1 self, most of his specials are not that good anymore (to me) force palm without touching is a pretty bad move, but it is good to continue the string in a combo when you have contact, force palm in the air without contact is worse, but when you do have contact it's a reliable meteor/spike given the aura charge, but it's hard as balls to land that air grab. down-b without charge is simply not good, just a way to come back on the stage, and even with charge it's still kinda meh to me, up-b is to recover, with a charge its a good way to keep back on stage. N-b is a mystery to me since i rarely use it.

You've also got the fact that Lucario is great at pressuring shields yet he sucks ass at getting out of pressure, i've come to think that he is a spacie in essence, just doesn't FF. Oh and the other guys are right, his air mobility in general is disgusting.

All in all lucario is much better than his brawl self (practically everyone is) but he's certainly not "too good" you have to really know how to use him to get anywhere, but i also think he might just be the next best character on paper, he has some serious potentional

 

[Squartle]

Is there still a way for Lucario to reliably combo into aerial side-B? I've seen videos where almost every kill was that way, but I can't manage it when I've dabbled with Lucario in 2.5. Was this only possible in 2.1?

 

[drsusredfish]

from my experience there isn't really a reliable way in 2.5. to combo fair to side B you have to hit the sweet spot of fair while rising and the opponent has to be DI-ing toward you at a some specific percent.

its funny. I just realized the best DI against lucarios moves is down back/(down and away) A.K.A. street fighter turtleling. down crouch cancels and for the most part DI-ing away from lucario gets you out of his basic combos.

 

[Darkgun]

I suppose I should ask what you mean by reliably combo into aerial FP, as to my knowledge, if the opponent DI's correctly out of the combo there is no real way to land an uncontested aerial FP. With that in mind, being that I lean on FP so much I'm surprised I'm not laying down, a FP combos into aerial FP at a specific range, D-tilt combos into it as well [at a specific range], first hit of dair, spacing permitted, will almost always combo into aerial FP (sometimes has to be reversed I believe, and though I am not sure I think one can be hit in between these two attacks), D-throw and U-throw also get the job done pretty well, though I feel that throw>FP is a little too DI dependent. For the most part though, it seems like FP will see use on an opponent who fails to DI whatever you throw at them, as that is where its use is most prominent, in my play experience, at least.

I've also found that fair>aerial FP is a tad too situational to be useful, though following up fair with a FP Aurafire is a pretty decent way to cover a large amount of space in front of Lucario (I want to say if I covers an opponent's midair jump well, but I cannot say for sure, as I am in no position to test it.).

 

[BigHairyFart]

Is there still a way for Lucario to reliably combo into aerial side-B? I've seen videos where almost every kill was that way, but I can't manage it when I've dabbled with Lucario in 2.5. Was this only possible in 2.1?

I've found that u-smash>short hop>force palm works pretty well, but if you do this against a heavy character or fast faller(spacies), don't jump, just go u-smash>force palm. Also, a bit less reliably, you can cancel the FIRST kick of his d-air into an aerial FP. If the second kick hits the enemy, they go too far away to land a force palm.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

AT BEST he's SLIGHTLY better then spacies, but i doubt even that.
his recovery is stupid though
wallclinging is a bad mechanic that should be deleted

 

[Comeback Kid]

wallclinging is a bad mechanic that should be deleted

I agree with this. Why have yet another tool for recoveries that are good already?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

My thoughts are that it'd be a lot easier on the eyes to read if you used different color with the black background.

I don't feel he's too good, just good enough as he is.

 

[iDare]

Personally I think Lucario has really changed his play in the different versions of PM.
I have to admit, I have mained Lucario since I started playing Project M which was in 2.1 and in that version Lucario was indeed quite over powered. He was so just incredibly safe and didn't need to be dedicated to his approach. But in 2.5 he was tuned down quite a bit.

Now in 2.6 I have to say that Lucario's game has improved over his 2.5 self, but is not as powerful as in 2.1. His tech game is amazing, and in the right hands his potential can be put to incredible uses!


I really enjoy using him, Lucario is my main and I'm proud of it! xD

 

[QraQ]

I agree with this. Why have yet another tool for recoveries that are good already?

Because Lucarios would have a horrible recovery without wallclinging lol.

I don't think Lucario is overpowered at all considering the skill cap required for it.
And tbh, there are no really formidable Lucario players out there based on that skill cap.

 

[sonicfan7895]

Personally, I can see many changes that can be made to Lucario vanishing instantly, almost due to the fact that he was (apparently) made weaker from previous builds of PM. I guess they decided to dumb down his strengths just a tad bit, in order to integrate his combo game, because with the right combos (jab string, F-Tilt, U-Smash, Jump --> Aerial-B+A is an example), Lucario can deal an astonishing 50-60% damage within a matter of seconds. Methinks that as of yet, his combo game and his strengths are great, and proportional to his abilities, although his recoveries do suck a little bit.

 

[iLink]

(jab string, F-Tilt, U-Smash, Jump --> Aerial-B+A is an example)

That combo will very rarely someone who knows what they are doing with DI, especially considering how slow the startup on force palm is now.

 

[sonicfan7895]

I meant to edit it earlier, but what I meant was Aerial-Side-B+A, but Aerial Aura Bomb could be a possibility too, should the enemy be knocked up too high or too far to the side. And this combo string is mainly used for the heavier opponents (Bowser, Ganon, R.O.B., etc.). Although I wish I had the capability to record such gameplay directly from the TV, I'd show you what I mean, but whatever. Whilst this combo being very rare, it's very possible, and Lucario, in my opinion, could be just a bit better. I mentioned in a different thread that Lucario's Aura Bomb could be better improved to make better use of its name (though the connection to Dragon Ball was clever, but yet blatantly obvious (but the developers and programmers did an excellent job programming his current Aura Bomb)); he could condense a ball of aura into a tiny ball and throw it like a bomb to have it explode for 25-30% damage, and cost one aura charge. I digress, now. Although the startup on Force Palm is considerably slower than Brawl's (it is a bit of a hindrance), a bit of practice and I can have it down. I am starting to get more and more used to Lucario's new system the more I use it; finding different grab combos and the like.

 

[SuperNova!]

It has been my experience that, against a good MetaKnight, Samus, or Zelda, Lucario is not OP. Those three are fast enough and/or have the projectiles to keep up with Lucario. When used strategically, Nayru's Love can counter lots of Lucario's moves. MetaKnight can easily keep up with Lucario's aerial game and Samus' projectiles are handy for making Lucario keep his distance. Against everyone else, though, I see what you're saying.

 

[sonicfan7895]

It has been my experience that, against a good MetaKnight, Samus, or Zelda, Lucario is not OP. Those three are fast enough and/or have the projectiles to keep up with Lucario. When used strategically, Nayru's Love can counter lots of Lucario's moves. MetaKnight can easily keep up with Lucario's aerial game and Samus' projectiles are handy for making Lucario keep his distance. Against everyone else, though, I see what you're saying.

Yeah, a lot of times I've tried to find a good counter for Lucario, and Zelda is definitely one of them. In Turbo Mode, she can easily knock anyone out with those powerful energy kicks, but not before totally ruining your day with magic abuse. Nayru's Love is definitely a good counter, but Lucario's speed is also a good counter. All in all, I think Lucario is more in the balanced tiers, and he deserves to stay there until further changes are made. That's just my opinion.

 

[SuperNova!]

Yeah, a lot of times I've tried to find a good counter for Lucario, and Zelda is definitely one of them. In Turbo Mode, she can easily knock anyone out with those powerful energy kicks, but not before totally ruining your day with magic abuse. Nayru's Love is definitely a good counter, but Lucario's speed is also a good counter. All in all, I think Lucario is more in the balanced tiers, and he deserves to stay there until further changes are made. That's just my opinion.

Ice Climbers are a challenging opponent, too. When you try to nail them with a side-b, usually one of them is free to smack you. Plus, their little ice projectiles can be a problem. But as long as they aren't desynced, down-b is great for getting behind them or dodging their attacks and punishing them.

 

[sonicfan7895]

Ice Climbers are a challenging opponent, too. When you try to nail them with a side-b, usually one of them is free to smack you. Plus, their little ice projectiles can be a problem. But as long as they aren't desynced, down-b is great for getting behind them or dodging their attacks and punishing them.

Double Team is a great way to get behind opponent's and either D-Smash or F-Smash cancel from behind with the C-Stick. Pair that up with some fast dashing and accurate jumping heights, and you have some good running combos going. I think that Lucario should be one of those desperados for when the opponent is really in trouble; and considering he now starts every stock with one aura charge, it's hard to say no to a free Aura Bomb or Upgraded Force Palm Grab.

 

[Hylian]

Ice Climbers are a challenging opponent, too. When you try to nail them with a side-b, usually one of them is free to smack you. Plus, their little ice projectiles can be a problem. But as long as they aren't desynced, down-b is great for getting behind them or dodging their attacks and punishing them.

I think Lucario is IC's worst match-up lol. He is next to impossible to grab and gets double charge off them.

 

[SuperNova!]

I think Lucario is IC's worst match-up lol. He is next to impossible to grab and gets double charge off them.

Double charge?

 

[QraQ]

Double charge?

As in, each Ice Climber gives their own individual % stack towards Lucario's aura charges.

 

[SuperNova!]

I never noticed that before. Cool!

 

[Waffleman211]

Lucario is not cheap, he's just too awesome for you to handle