Lucario recovery in 3.5

[HK_Spadez]

With all this talk about toning down good recoveries. think lucario will get the nerf hammer on his recovery?

i was under the impression that the recovery nerf should really only apply to the top teirs so im hoping lucario is safe but who knows.

thoughts?

 

[KhanYe]

Based off of what we know about Lucas' recovery nerf, Lucario definitely would get a recovery nerf. What I can think of is that Lucario can no longer air dodge out of Aura-cancelled Extreme Speed and he no longer has frames of invulnerability during his Aura-cancelled Double Team cancelled aerials.

His recovery would be OP if everyone else's was nerfed in the top tier.

 

[HK_Spadez]

thats the thing tho. ppl dont consider lucario top teir. he's around mid-high teir. if they nerf his recovery without giving him any other buffs. would be sort ****ed up imo. so i wonder what they are going to do

 

[Zoa]

Honestly I seriously doubt this. Lucario may recover far, but his recovery is very linear. It also requires an aura charge to even do anything out of ES, and an air dodge out of ES is super punishable/edgehogged. The only thing he can do to mix up his recovery open to return is ES cancel -> DT, and even then that falls under the PMDT's philosophy of being at a huge disadvantage while being creative to recover. This also falls under the character page for him where your skill is supposed to be rewarded with his supers. Though if he suffers another nerf without anything to compensate, then I'll more than likely drop him for Mewtwo.

 

[AkashSky]

I bet lucario's recovery won't be nerfed for the following reasons:

1) Neutral game: Lucario's neutral isn't very good. This is a weakness of lucario.

2) Combo Game: IE, non neutral game. You just landed a hit on your opponent and now have some frame advantage to pull out some shenanigans. Here lucario is pretty godly if opponent doesn't DI. Having a strong combo game however does not make up for a lackluster neutral because of SDI and DI mechanics already present in the game.

3) Recovery : A+ excellent in my oppinion. If hit off the stage, even if while having used second jump, it is possible to make it back on with some aura.


Lucas on the other hand was excellent in all 3 of these categories, with no blatant weaknesses in a single one.

Lucario's good recovery is counter-acted by the terrible neutral game.

Thusly, If PMBR Does intend to nerf lucario's recovery, they would need to buff something about lucario to make his neutral game better, like give a good approach option that isn't dash attack. This is the only way to keep balance as it currently is. And besides, lucario's recovery has already been nerfed.

You can't wall cling out of up B like you can in brawl anymore =P

 

[Wade Benedict]

I doubt that they are going to base their decisions with nerfing characters on any teir list.

 

[HK_Spadez]

I doubt that they are going to base their decisions with nerfing characters on any teir list.

i hope they do.. i mean.. jiggs and G&W got good recovery. but if they nerf them without any compensation they even ****tier than they currently are

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario's recovery isn't good unless he unless he can use an aura charge for a mix-up.

Otherwise it's pretty easy to just gimp him when he tries to get back with UpB.

 

[Kankato]

The only recovery nerf I can see happening is the high-momentum DT cancel in midair (if you DTC with dair right at the start he flies horizontally), and that requires an aura charge & is totally punishable.

 

[AkashSky]

The only recovery nerf I can see happening is the high-momentum DT cancel in midair (if you DTC with dair right at the start he flies horizontally), and that requires an aura charge & is totally punishable.

Even this isn't an issue because it requires an aura charge. Unless the lucario had 2 charges saved up when using this to recover, the lucario will come on onto the stage without an aura charge which leaves lucario with extremely limited options to approach and play defensively.

A chargless Lucario is, in my oppinion about 25% weaker than a lucario with a charge in that instant.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

I'd be all for nerfing Lucario's recovery for a better neutral game and/or approach options. Being the character he is I don't understand why his neutral game is the way it is. It's not THAT bad but it isn't good either. Nerfing recovery and making him more offensively based would be A1.

 

[InfinityCollision]

i was under the impression that the recovery nerf should really only apply to the top teirs

Recovery changes are going to apply to anyone they think needs changes to their recovery, whether they be for better or for worse. Doesn't mean they can't change something else in return. There's more to character design than just where they sit in the tier list.

Not that I really expect significant changes to Lucario's recovery, if any at all.

 

[Darkgun]

To my knowledge, recovery is being scaled down independent of on-stage presence. Additionally, I am expecting minor tuning to Lucario's recovery. Nothing serious like a loss of aDTC movement or no air-dodge out of ESC, but a smaller ledge snap distance (as you can currently snap to ledge nearly half a character length below ledge (practically the only way to get away from moves that reach just below ledge height). If they do make a drastic change, it will likely be that starting ES in the air will burn Lucario's Double Jump, which while that won't really be much of a change to on-stage game, it will reduce his offstage recovery mixups.

 

[AkashSky]

To my knowledge, recovery is being scaled down independent of on-stage presence. Additionally, I am expecting minor tuning to Lucario's recovery. Nothing serious like a loss of aDTC movement or no air-dodge out of ESC, but a smaller ledge snap distance (as you can currently snap to ledge nearly half a character length below ledge (practically the only way to get away from moves that reach just below ledge height). If they do make a drastic change, it will likely be that starting ES in the air will burn Lucario's Double Jump, which while that won't really be much of a change to on-stage game, it will reduce his offstage recovery mixups.

NOOOO that would be terrible. The only reason I play with tap jump off is so I don't use lucario's double jump when I extreme speed. I think its a super drastic change, because it makes meteor cancelling with lucario really hard because you would actually have to do it as soon as physicaly possible to get back on stage.

 

[Giygacoal]

I'd be all for nerfing Lucario's recovery for a better neutral game and/or approach options. Being the character he is I don't understand why his neutral game is the way it is. It's not THAT bad but it isn't good either. Nerfing recovery and making him more offensively based would be A1.

I agree. Lucario can do some amazing stuff as-is, but he would be more interesting (for Lucario's theme specifically) with more reliable rushdown. The punish game is cool, and I'm glad Lucario has it, but we have characters like Ganon for that.

The question is...how can Lucario's neutral be improved? most of his moves are already very solid in utility, down-B probably can't be changed any further after all the stuff it has been through to get well-balanced, and any small change is a big change when you consider the whole combo system. The only move I can think of that isn't used much in the current public build is down-air. Would that be his new approach?

 

[bec]

how 2 better neutral game:

land cancellable or faster aura spheres
a sex kick (or a longer duration on the hitbox of fair)
a less laggy dash attack - but i feel all dash attacks should have plenty of end lag as that seems to be a fairly consistent theme and idk somehow it makes sense in my head
better wavedash i feel could help?
better air mobility too
better intangibility frames on his down b

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

how 2 better neutral game:

land cancellable or faster aura spheres
a sex kick (or a longer duration on the hitbox of fair)
a less laggy dash attack - but i feel all dash attacks should have plenty of end lag as that seems to be a fairly consistent theme and idk somehow it makes sense in my head
better wavedash i feel could help?
better air mobility too
better intangibility frames on his down b

He needs only one or two assets from that list. Because having all of those would make him OP AF.

1) If he had land cancelable aura spheres that would be all he needs (honestly this is the only thing I've wished Lucario could have ever since I picked him up last week).

2) If his initial dash animation was faster and longer alongside a better wavedash.

3) If his initial dash animation was faster and longer with an additional kick added to fair (similar to how Falcon's Nair operates).

Imo, any of those choices would make his neutral game better in order from most to least effective. Btw his wavedash is pretty decent if you use the optimal distance.

 

[bec]

oh no i know that having all of them would be ridiculous lmao that was just a list of things that would be great, pick a few and give the sad furry some love.

his wavedash is aight but nothing amazing like sooome characters

 

[Karnu]

Based off of what we know about Lucas' recovery nerf, Lucario definitely would get a recovery nerf. What I can think of is that Lucario can no longer air dodge out of Aura-cancelled Extreme Speed and he no longer has frames of invulnerability during his Aura-cancelled Double Team cancelled aerials.

His recovery would be OP if everyone else's was nerfed in the top tier.

Duuuuudeee

That'll suck so bad...

 

[Giygacoal]

Duuuuudeee

That'll suck so bad...

Not if we get our on-stage compensation. :D

how 2 better neutral game:

land cancellable or faster aura spheres
a sex kick (or a longer duration on the hitbox of fair)
a less laggy dash attack - but i feel all dash attacks should have plenty of end lag as that seems to be a fairly consistent theme and idk somehow it makes sense in my head
better wavedash i feel could help?
better air mobility too
better intangibility frames on his down b

-Better aura sphere or a more sex kick-esque fair would be nice. I guess if it's either or, it would depend on which direction the character is to be taken.
-Dash attack is fine right now I guess; the endlag fits Lucario's system. Less startup might be alright, but there's the over-centralization issue that has to be kept in mind.
-Would an altered wavedash affect the rest of his physics in any way?
-I wouldn't count on a buffed down-B considering all it has been through up until this point.

 

[KhanYe]

I would basically count on it happening at this point. What we know about nerfs thus far indicates that they basically want most characters to have a recovery no greater than Fox's, and Lucario's recovery has so many mixup options and ways of punishing the edgeguarder that it would be a shock if they didn't do something to Lucario's recovery.

That being said, I think the PM Dev Team recognizes that Lucario isn't as great a character as he seems, he just has a lot of glitz and glamour to cover up his pretty shaky neutral game and pretty DI-able combo game. Hopefully he gets something to make up for his recovery being nerfed, but I wouldn't count on anything too drastic.

EDIT - Also, I love how Aura Sphere is currently. Maybe a biiiiit more speed would be nice, and I think the secret final level is unnecessarily hard to attain, but honestly, it's a super underrated move. I've gotten tons of kills off of it, it has great knockback and besides the first level, it has two hits of life, so it's difficult to clank with.

 

[bec]

yeah i was simply listing buffs that would improve his neutral game. i doubt most or any of them will happen

a longer wavedash would mean lucario has less traction, that should be the only thing it affects. the wavedash's length is determined by closeness to the ground when inputting the air dodge, the angle of the dodge and the character's individual traction.

edit: looked it up, in brawl lucario apparently had the highest traction, and i imagine that carried over somewhat to pm though i wouldn't be surprised if it was altered.

 

[KhanYe]

His movement options are sound enough that his wavedash doesn't really need to be altered imo. Between DT and his pretty stellar DD, he's solid in that department.

 

[Darkgun]

I would never ask for a better neutral for Lucario, but one sure would be nice. Also, I figure Lucario is kind of getting an indirect buff anyway, since his options for offstage edgeguards are so stellar as is. As long as Lucario is within ES range of the ledge, edgeguards are next to free as is, in my opinion.

Also, post 3.5 patch I am totally going to learn suicide punishes as a counter edgeguard. If I can't make it back to the stage, I might as well make my opponent think twice about edgeguarding me agressively.

 

[Zoa]

If he does get some things to compensate in neutral for a nerfed recovery, it's gotta be lower traction and alterations to Force Palm (flame portion) and AS. I honestly see nothing but good coming out of less traction. It means a better wavedash in neutral, and grants a decent OoS option outside of dodges and usmash. FP's flame portion could use a significant speed up to make it a good poke tool, and actually not SD anywhere as badly when using it offstage. AS probably needs to be reverted back to Brawl travel path (no zigzag), but definitely needs a speed buff to aid rushdown, help against characters with projectiles, and just be a better utility tool in general for neutral.