Looking for tips

[Synesthesia]

I'm new to the boards, so I'll start out with the reasoning I'm here,and then some background information, before getting into specific questions. First off, my friends and I have been playing this game fairly competitively for about four years. Not competitive to a tech skill aspect, but a more basic game. None of us knew how to z-cancel until about half a year ago when I discovered it through a youtube video. Anyway the matches still get pretty intense, and we play very very frequently. I've always been the underdog, (due to their excessive use of grab) so, I decided to learn as much as I can about the game to even the playing field.

tldr : want to beat my friends <cliche.. trying to get better lol..

Where I'm At -
As far as tech skill goes I consider myself fairly competent. I rarely miss a z-cancel can pivot, short-hop, shdl, dash dance, shine-cancel (inconsistently), and do some basic comboing. I play with basically every character (except Samus) but, I mainly play as fox..

Most of these questions I've searched the boards for an couldn't find a specific answer so that's why I'm asking them here.

Fox's Shine Cancel:
Basically, what's the best way of doing this? I find it easier to crouch and then button slide in the same way you shdl, but in most videos I see the player never has the crouching animation.

Fox's Jab-Jab-Jab Combo:
Don't really understand how this is done. Everytime I try I either accidentally dash attack or fail to walk far enough and they're out of range. What's a good character to practice this on?

Recovering with Fox:
Everytime I fly off the edge it's normally a stock gone. I either go for the stage and I'm immediately grabbed and thrown back off, or I go for the edge and fail to sweet spot or down-tilted/smashed..

Link's Bomb Recovery:
Is there an easy way to practice this in training mode? I've launched myself off the edge with sensor mines, but I never have time to really try before I die. Also I don't really understand how to "lightly" throw the bomb down... it always drops too fast.

Yoshi's DJC:
When i try the sound of the double jump comes out, but it doesn't really do anything for me.

Mario + Luigi's Down-B Recovery:
It seems like when I do this the ending lag from the tornado animation is so long that I end up in the same place I started it. Am I doing something wrong?

Mario + Luigi's Down-Air to Up-Air:
Cannot get this to work. I mainly want to continue this into another down-air, but when I do it the down-air doesn't come out quick enough to continue it.

Kirby's Pivot U-Tilt:
Always ends up in me up-airing or up-smashing...

Countering people that do nothing but roll around and grab:
My friends basically camp, wait for me to come in with an aerial, then roll so that I miss, then punish me with a grab. It's very frustrating.

That's basically it for specific questions. I normally play fox, but I do mix it up quite often. If anyone knows any easy combos I can practice, or ways to make my combos better overall it'd be highly appreciated. I seem to fail them 80% of the time.. I guess I'm just slow.


Thankyou

 

[Shears]

Read the entire index thread and ask a question thread, you'll be a wizard.

I play with basically every character (except Samus)

Don't let @Cobrevolution hear this.

 

[M!nt]

The only way I can suggest to get better is to play online or go to tournaments that are announced on here.

Fox's Shine Cancel
You just have to be fast.

Fox's Jab-Jab-Jab Combo
Kirby and pikachu are pretty good targets. You're not doing the third jab kick thing right? Just learn how to delay your jabs better and move the analog stick between them.

Recovering with Fox
Its the life of fox unfortunately you just have to rely on your opponent messing up. Try going for high upb fastfall sometimes.

Link's Bomb Recovery
I don't know many people that can do this and neither can I so idk.

Yoshi's DJC
You're pressing your second jump too fast. Yoshis not like ness where you can press them right after another. Delay your second jump.

Mario + Luigi's Down-B Recovery
Mash harder.

Mario + Luigi's Down-Air to Up-Air
This is the hardest zcanxel in the game just have to practice.

Kirby's Pivot U-Tilt
Practice I can't do this either. Or get on keyboard LOL.

Countering people that do nothing but roll around and grab
Once you play really good people you'll learn that rolling is the worst thing to do in a situation. Predict what people are going to do in a situation and punish their rolls or grabs.

 

[Sangoku]

(My brother closed the browser, I had to re-write almost everything >__>)

Hi, welcome to smashboards

Concerning the general aspect of getting better, the best way is to play against good people... You can either check the map to see who would be near you and try to play them, or play online (guide on how to in this thread). If you want more specific tips you can also provide vids (preferrably against good human players), it is a better way for us to assess your level.

1) Shine cancel: It doesn't matter whether you crouch or not. You could very well break a shield with shines if you keep down pressed. I for example always hold down then slide from left c to b with the thumb.

2) Fox jab-jab-jab: it really is a matter of timing. You need to press them not too quickly as you don't want the rapid kicks. Concerning walking in between, practice makes it perfect I guess. What you want to do is jab, then push the joystick during the jab animation (to buffer the direction and walk instead of run), then let go on the joystick, then jab, etc. You can train against a pikachu at 80-90ish: jab him accross the stage and then finish with an upsmash/uair/nair/whatever.

3) Fox's recovery is aweful, that's for sure. The thing is to try to mix it up as much as you can. If you can get back with your second jump, don't always second jump+attack, you can jump away and upb, etc. Generally speaking though, you want to recover high. So you second jump and upb as high as possible, then you need to feint the opponent by either going into the stage as far as possible, or going away from to ledge and finally grab it (I'm sure you've seen this technique in vids already, but if you haven't we'll show you some clip).

4) I'm not sure it's really worth practicing as it is really gimmicky. Lightly drop the bomb means lightly press down on the joystick.

5) That's a matter of timing (which is different from Ness' DJC). What you want to do is more like this: c-----c-a, instead of c-c----a as you would do with Ness.

6) Down B recovery: You need to mash b as fast as possible. It is more difficult with Mario and I know I can't do it reliably.

7) Short hop double aerial: You need to be really quick in the short hop first aerial transition (like you would with a SHDL). Be also careful not to jump diagonally, as the jump will then be lower, making the second aerial almost impossible.

8) Pivot utilt: that is a very difficult technique. You just need to train pivotting then lightly pushing up.

9) Counter rolls: think when you play. You know they are going to roll, so just go where they'll end up and punish directly. Let's take an example: you're both on the ground. You dash toward your opponent to attack him and everytime he rolls backward to dodge your attack and then grabs you after you missed. Now since you know this happens everytime, you know he's going to roll as you approach him. The trick is then not to attack him where you would normally, but to run past that spot and attack where he will be after he rolls. In the beginning playing like that is really disturbing, because you'll feel that if you don't attack on the initial spot, he won't roll. But trust me he will though, it's a conditioned habit.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Hey bud, welcome to Smashboards

It seems like other people are helping you out with your questions, so I won't go into detail on all of that stuff.

My NUMBER ONE piece of advice for a semi-beginner is this:

Get really good at pivots (into several ground attacks, shield jump arials, etc.), (running/pivoting) shield drops, and fast fall arials.

I'm not like GREAT at this game or anything, but IMO those three techniques are the most important after the BASICS (i.e. z canceling, short happing, etc.)

If you can get those techniques down (they'll take lots of practice, like everything else), you'll be at a big advantage vs people who can't do them.

Good luck!

 

[B Link]

If they're camping try shooting projectiles

 

[mixa]

Link's Bomb Recovery: Is there an easy way to practice this in training mode?

Stand atop the dorsal fin of the ship in Sector Z. You'll have to figure out how to be properly launched, though. I don't remember how I did it, but it's possible to practice it from that spot. And don't sweat over it; it's not a good technique.

Mario + Luigi's Down-B Recovery: It seems like when I do this the ending lag from the tornado animation is so long that I end up in the same place I started it

Start training mode as Player 1 on Dream Land. Down-B from the ground. See if you can jump before you reach the ground again. **Remember that you can move up and forward with the down-B (without loss of height).

Quite a few of the problems you have are timing based. Figure out the correct sequence of inputs required to perform such techs and from that you'll know why you can't do them. Otherwise, just practice.

 

[Shears]

Learn how to utilt with kirby, its an AT that will carry you far.

 

[Synesthesia]

Thanks a ton guys! Lots of useful advice, I'll start practicing right away!

 

[rjgbadger]

I

tldr : want to beat my friends <cliche.. trying to get better lol..

Where I'm At -
As far as tech skill goes I consider myself fairly competent. I rarely miss a z-cancel can pivot, short-hop, shdl, dash dance, shine-cancel (inconsistently), and do some basic comboing.l I mainly play as fox..



Fox's Shine Cancel:
Basically, what's the best way of doing this? I find it easier to crouch and then button slide in the same way you shdl, but in most videos I see the player never has the crouching animation.

Fox's Jab-Jab-Jab Combo:
Don't really understand how this is done. Everytime I try I either accidentally dash attack or fail to walk far enough and they're out of range. What's a good character to practice this on?

Recovering with Fox:
Everytime I fly off the edge it's normally a stock gone. I either go for the stage and I'm immediately grabbed and thrown back off, or I go for the edge and fail to sweet spot or down-tilted/smashed..




Countering people that do nothing but roll around and grab:
My friends basically camp, wait for me to come in with an aerial, then roll so that I miss, then punish me with a grab. It's very frustrating.

That's basically it for specific questions. I normally play fox, but I do mix it up quite often. If anyone knows any easy combos I can practice, or ways to make my combos better overall it'd be highly appreciated. I seem to fail them 80% of the time.. I guess I'm just slow.


Thankyou

Hello, Fox Friend!
All I really ever do is play Fox and I'll answer these questions, to the best of my ability.

As for the shine cancel, you just need a speedy thumb. I slide from the left C button to B (obviously because they're the closest together). faster than a double laser B press. I don't think crouching makes it easier, and you shouldn't have to crouch to get a proper shine cancel. Just focus on sliding from C to B very quickly and you should get a feel for the timing.

As for fox's jab-jab-jab-jab-jab combo, you shouldn't focus on doing many jabs. When you space it well (ie fox's hand is barely hitting them so when fox steps back from the jab he's safe) it acts as a decent keep-away. dtilt too is amazing for this. I would say don't focus on jab into more jabs, work on jab-up smash for a kill. down air>jab>usmash should be consistent for killing characters. Very easy unless their DI is great, which doesn't sound like the case here.

If you're having issues with rolling and grabbing I can say this: fox is one of the fastest characters in this game. If you know they will roll and grab, and you know this 100% or close to it, simply run at them, do an empty short jump (no aerial) or pivot and wait so when they roll, you can just dash and chase with a grab/aerial when you land. If getting shield-grabbed is your issue, try landing behind their shield instead of in grab range. Fox dtilt is really good vs a shield too, you can never get shield grabbed if you go about spacing it right.

If your friends are only waiting for you to come in, try playing the same game yourself. hang back and they will come to you. It sounds just like a patience issue, a very common problem for a fox player. If you had any videos too of gameplay it would be very easy to pick at the errors and try to fix them. Or, if you play online/can set it up, I could show you a lot of things when it comes to Fox's movement and aggressive and defensive options.

Hope I helped a bit! C"x

 

[caneut]

Fox's Shine Cancel:
Basically, what's the best way of doing this? I find it easier to crouch and then button slide in the same way you shdl, but in most videos I see the player never has the crouching animation.

- Down and c-button to B with same finger. Don't practice a trick to do it, just do it and practice.

Fox's Jab-Jab-Jab Combo:
Don't really understand how this is done. Everytime I try I either accidentally dash attack or fail to walk far enough and they're out of range. What's a good character to practice this on?

- Get good at Fox's regular Jab. Pivot jabs, dair jabs, jab jab grab, jab pivot jab, JAB MORE! Jab is so useful. Once you get good at hitting consistent jabs, it's literally just a jab, move a little but moving the stick back to neutral position before jabbing again.

Recovering with Fox:
Everytime I fly off the edge it's normally a stock gone. I either go for the stage and I'm immediately grabbed and thrown back off, or I go for the edge and fail to sweet spot or down-tilted/smashed..

- Know spacing, where you can get hit and not, and just mix it up, don't be predictable.

Link's Bomb Recovery:
Is there an easy way to practice this in training mode? I've launched myself off the edge with sensor mines, but I never have time to really try before I die. Also I don't really understand how to "lightly" throw the bomb down... it always drops too fast.

- This isn't something you should really be concerned about. But you have to slow throw it down, not fast throw it, then bair and DI forward while.

Yoshi's DJC:
When i try the sound of the double jump comes out, but it doesn't really do anything for me.

- I don't play Yoshi.

Mario + Luigi's Down-B Recovery:
It seems like when I do this the ending lag from the tornado animation is so long that I end up in the same place I started it. Am I doing something wrong?

- Tap it faster.

Mario + Luigi's Down-Air to Up-Air:
Cannot get this to work. I mainly want to continue this into another down-air, but when I do it the down-air doesn't come out quick enough to continue it.

- Much like fox's shdl, you have to time it just right. Frames matter.

Kirby's Pivot U-Tilt:
Always ends up in me up-airing or up-smashing...

- Don't be a kirby ***, you won't get better playing a character that takes no skill.

Countering people that do nothing but roll around and grab:
My friends basically camp, wait for me to come in with an aerial, then roll so that I miss, then punish me with a grab. It's very frustrating.

- Spacing


Also, if you're playing fox, learn his laser and fast fall. You can take on any noob with a simple fast fall dair into a combo, or just short hopping and lasering to stun and taking advantage of them while stunned. Fox is a fast character, abuse him.

 

[Synesthesia]

Getting a lot better at comboing, and moving around the stage more quickly. I've been practicing moving around the platforms on hyrule, and it seems to help a lot. Right now I'm practicing jab-jab-dash-Upsmash with fox.. very difficult.. end up dash attacking instead of up-smashing 70% of the time. I'm hoping that's a muscle memory tech you just have to practice, and not something I'm just naturally bad at.. lol.
Also been trying to practice shine jabbing, but its not working very well, is this tech shine then jab or jab then shine? I've heard about it, but never actually seen it done. I'll try looking for some videos.
Anyway thanks everyone for the tips. They've helped with my practice a lot. I havent had a chance to play my friends yet, but I'll try out your suggestions when i do. Thanks again .

Also is jab-pivot-jab character specific or can you do it on anyone? I normally train with a fox dummy, and it seems like you have to be other-worldly fast to make it combo lol.

 

[Sangoku]

1) In fact dash-> upsmash has a different timing from a standing upsmash. The standing upsmash can be done either by pressing up, then a during the jump animation, or by pressing up and a at the same time. While dashing, you can't cancel your run with an upsmash per se. What you can do is cancel your dash with a jump, then cancel your jump with an upsmash. Concretely that means you can't press up and a at the same time while dashing, you need to delay the a slightly (if you end up uairing, then you're pressing a too late).

2) When we say shine jab, we mean shine -> jab. There are plenty of videos with them, for example in this one (after the shield break). I (among others) find the best method is to remember the timing with the sound of the shine and the jab.

3) Jab-pivot-jab isn't really a combo (it can be at high percentage, like in Prince's combo video, but that's more of a flashy tech), it's better for shield pressure: say you're in front of their shield, you can pivot behind and jab to avoid a shieldgrab.

4) Try avoiding double posts as it is easy to edit a post

 

[Synesthesia]

1) In fact dash-> upsmash has a different timing from a standing upsmash. The standing upsmash can be done either by pressing up, then a during the jump animation, or by pressing up and a at the same time. While dashing, you can't cancel your run with an upsmash per se. What you can do is cancel your dash with a jump, then cancel your jump with an upsmash. Concretely that means you can't press up and a at the same time while dashing, you need to delay the a slightly (if you end up uairing, then you're pressing a too late).

Oh, ok I'll defiantly try to get the timing of it down. I've been pressing up and a at the same time, and I guess that's my whole problem. I knew that a dash->upsmash was a canceled jump I just didn't realize you had to not press the jump and the a button at the same time. thanks .

3) Jab-pivot-jab isn't really a combo (it can be at high percentage, like in Prince's combo video, but that's more of a flashy tech), it's better for shield pressure: say you're in front of their shield, you can pivot behind and jab to avoid a shieldgrab.

I like flash techs lol. They're the only thing that keep me sane playing my friends. If I pull something cool off in a match I feel less bad about losing lol. That's why I mainly play fox.

 

[Zeds]

Let's play console, I can teach u some of those things, but can't help with fox. I'm in murfreesboro

 

[T Brett]

5) That's a matter of timing (which is different from Ness' DJC). What you want to do is more like this: c-----c-a, instead of c-c----a as you would do with Ness.
jump will then be lower, making the second aerial almost impossible.

Does this make Ness more vulnerable to being sent off stage without a jump? And if so, how to avoid this while djc'ing?

 

[Sangoku]

Well Ness is indeed more vulnerable, but not because of the timing difference per se. It's because he doesn't have a super armor like Yoshi between his second jump and his aerial. How to avoid getting sent offstage? Same with any char, try avoiding getting hit. You'd need to space your DJC aerials correctly and use the hitboxes to your advantages (that's true for anything obviously). For example take benefit of the invincible head in his uair, or be careful with smaller hitboxes like his fair. There's no specific way to avoid that...

Ness experts will explain you better.

 

[rjgbadger]

As for the shine jab you shouldn't worry about using it just yet. it requires a perfect shine cancel, then a2 frame window to hit a jab afterward(I think it's 2 frames). It overall just is not part of being an effective and efficient player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp8s5y2cU7w

shameless plug of what shine jab looks like. I'm turning after the shine here because I know I hit them backwards instead of forward. usually this is done forward.

 

[Sangoku]

then a2 frame window to hit a jab afterward(I think it's 2 frames).

It depends on the character and the position, but if you're simply next to them, it's 1 frame against everyone except Samus (2 frames). Found an old post:

EDIT: TASed it, here's the result.

Characters who can get shine jabbed normally:
Luigi, Mario, Samus, Pika, Yoshi, Ness.

Jiggly and Kirby can get shine jabbed if you're "inside" them. Walk towards them until the two chars are superposed, then you can shine jab. If you stop walking and let the game "split" you, then the jab will miss.

Characters who can't get shine jabbed (touch the ground before the jab):
DK, Link, CF, Fox

DK and CF are one frame off, which means the training mode combo meter doesn't reset. They touch the ground anyway.

Didn't mention the 1 frame vs 2 frame thing, but I'm pretty sure I did test back then.

 

[rjgbadger]

I always try to get 'inside' them when I shine, that I forgot to mention. makes it way way more consistent.

still, you shouldn't be doing it starting off. unless, you'd like to end up like me and focus movement and tech skill rather than spacing and punishing, which is something I don't recommend. it is rather fun, though

 

[mixa]

I think the frame data is a bit trickier than that. For instance, I can't always shine-jab Yoshi.

Compare http://gfycat.com/AdmiredImpeccableDungbeetle and http://gfycat.com/ImpressionableSlowGrouper

The only difference is that I let Yoshi's standing animation change (see first frame of both gifs).

it's 1 frame against everyone except Samus (2 frames).

I got a 2 frame window for Luigi and Mario (didn't test anyone else)

etc

And I'm gonna make an index for posts that are scattered around. (at least my posts, 'cause even I can't find them sometimes)

 

[Sangoku]

I discovered the standing animation thing way after that shine post, so I didn't know back then.

Thanks for the precisions.

The original purpose of the compilation thread was to gather scattered posts.

 

[texh]

Against that roll and grab thing, short jump and Z-cancelling in high doses are pretty effective. Well, at least against my bro. One missed Z-cancel= one successful grab.