Looking for advice on facing Little Mac

[FrankTheStud]

I really have no idea how to NOT feel at a severe disadvantage when my opponent picks Little Mac. Whether it's Smashville, Delfino, Duck Hunt, or any of the other tournament-approved stages, I just can't work around a DECENT Mac. I was sent to loser's brackets at a tournament after losing to a great Peach player. I didn't mind losing because I learned A LOT from it, and was hoping to play him again at some point in the tournament and try new strategies I was thinking up. I then won three sets against some very good players (and strange matchups!), and met a 2/0 defeat in my bracket against Little Mac. I self-deathed twice by mistake on Sunshine when I counterpicked, so I blame myself for losing the second match, but I still left embarrassed because I lost to Mac.
Some things I need help with though: I honestly feel like his down tilt into his KO punch is almost unavoidable (I blocked and tried to roll/sidestep and still got caught because of it's fast execution), and if I try to play safe and revolve around platforms, he just runs off, fast falls, and waits under your platform, camping you from underneath with up-tilt or up-smash. (both of which have stupid amounts of priority and spam ability in case he wiffs, and he moves at very fast speeds). I know I sound incredibly salty, but I'm actually embarrassed that I lost this matchup, to be honest, and don't want to be this upset again. I usually adapt very quickly, but I can't adapt or read a defensive Mac at all, because I can't find a safe way in as Mario. People complain about Mac's inability to recover well, but after alting as Doctor Mario, I honestly think that Mac's recovery is nowhere NEAR as bad as people make it out to be.
Should I try to play as Dr. Mario is my opponent plays as Mac, so that it's harder for him to KO me and my attacks have more knockback?

tl;dr - Looking for advice to help me Git Gud against defensive Mac. Thank you.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

but I still left embarrassed because I lost to Mac.

Why? Little Mac takes more skill than a vast majority of the roster. People disrespect and disregard him all the time because the character looks spammy and pitiful when sent offstage, but if you don't take a match seriously, you'll lose to more characters than just Mac.

Mario's not a bad pick for Mac, Doc would fare worse because his projectile is easily dashed under, while FLUDD is far more useful than Tornado. In addition, Mac has (some of) the worst edgeguarding options in the game, so you might as well pick the one with the better recovery.

Mac's KO punch builds up three times as fast upon receiving damage rather than taking damage. Once he earns the punch, he has a six second grace period where he can't lose it (unless of course he uses the move immediately). After that, any move with knockback will take the punch from him, and projectiles are the safest bet. A good Mac will have practiced dealing with projectiles, and even perfect shielding, so it's imperative that you stay well spaced or airborne while using them.

Mac's recovery is the worst in the game in terms of distance. But the moves are difficult to challenge with aerials when edgeguarding him. Cape, fireballs, and FLUDD are all extremely effective, however, for obvious reasons. Don't be afraid of getting hit by his Up B and Side B if he's not already in range of the ledge. Because all he can really do is double jump airdodge to avoid you, or counter.

Best way to earn stocks on mac is grabbing and throwing off the ledge. Grabs are already great since they get past his super armor smash attacks. But if you just mindlessly toss him in the air and juggle him, he'll get a quicker KO punch. Mac thrives off taking damage because Rage makes his power moveset much better, and most kill moves (which have the sakurai angle) will send him at a higher angle, allowing him an easier time recovering. Don't go for needless damage, finish your meal when fighting him.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Why? Little Mac takes more skill than a vast majority of the roster. People disrespect and disregard him all the time because the character looks spammy and pitiful when sent offstage, but if you don't take a match seriously, you'll lose to more characters than just Mac.

Mario's not a bad pick for Mac, Doc would fare worse because his projectile is easily dashed under, while FLUDD is far more useful than Tornado. In addition, Mac has (some of) the worst edgeguarding options in the game, so you might as well pick the one with the better recovery.

Mac's KO punch builds up three times as fast upon receiving damage rather than taking damage. Once he earns the punch, he has a six second grace period where he can't lose it (unless of course he uses the move immediately). After that, any move with knockback will take the punch from him, and projectiles are the safest bet. A good Mac will have practiced dealing with projectiles, and even perfect shielding, so it's imperative that you stay well spaced or airborne while using them.

Mac's recovery is the worst in the game in terms of distance. But the moves are difficult to challenge with aerials when edgeguarding him. Cape, fireballs, and FLUDD are all extremely effective, however, for obvious reasons. Don't be afraid of getting hit by his Up B and Side B if he's not already in range of the ledge. Because all he can really do is double jump airdodge to avoid you, or counter.

Best way to earn stocks on mac is grabbing and throwing off the ledge. Grabs are already great since they get past his super armor smash attacks. But if you just mindlessly toss him in the air and juggle him, he'll get a quicker KO punch. Mac thrives off taking damage because Rage makes his power moveset much better, and most kill moves (which have the sakurai angle) will send him at a higher angle, allowing him an easier time recovering. Don't go for needless damage, finish your meal when fighting him.

Thanks for the reply, man! A lot of good stuff here! However, I strongly disagree with a few things. Little Mac definitely does NOT take more skill to play than most of the roster whatsoever. He's pretty high reward with low risk (as he has virtually no lagtime and is difficult to punish). Bad air game doesn't mean much if he can fast fall on the ground and immediately put himself in control of the stage again. Grabs work SOMETIMES, but are also incredibly risky, as Mac will punish you very harshly if you wiff it. Mac's down smash is actually a stupidly good AND safe edgeguard, so I don't know what you're talking about when you say "one of the worst in the game."
The fact that the grace period of 6 seconds is even ON his KO punch is ridiculous, as I can juggle him with upairs and he can still have it by the end of the juggle and take a stock with a blocked d-tilt to KO punch. (which I would really appreciate hearing a counter for if you know any). By staying airborne while using projectiles, you can put yourself in a bad position against Mac, who can run underneath you and get ready with his d tilt out of shield, amongst other punches while you land.
As far as keeping him off the stage, his air dodge is his safest bet, and hard to punish because all he needs is one before he's back on stage and charging his down smash at the ledge. Sure, I can try to upair and juggle instead of nair/backair, but that just stacks onto his KO punch and assists even more in his recovery. Maybe down air would be good to keep him stationary in the air as he falls under the stage? (Considering I miss the last hit?)
I use FLUDD a lot in my Mario play, as it's ideal for altering your opponents positioning, but he can be avoided almost completely with ONE air dodge. Alongside this, FLUDD pushes Mario backwards while he sprays, making it harder to get out there and edgeguard afterwards (considering he dodged the "wave" and isn't riding it). Maybe I should risk it for the biscuit and try to cape more, but if I can nail cape, I may as well have backaired. (unless he's approaching ledge from side+b and I'm on stage).

Once again, thank you for your imput... I know I sound a bit salty, but I'm learning a lot I didn't know! (Like about the 6 seconds on his KO punch before it can be attacked out)

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Thanks for the reply, man! A lot of good stuff here! However, I strongly disagree with a few things. Little Mac definitely does NOT take more skill to play than most of the roster whatsoever. He's pretty high reward with low risk (as he has virtually no lagtime and is difficult to punish).

I must confess that I'm absolutely reeling from disbelief at this. Little Mac is all risk. One critical error means a death at 20% when facing a competent player. I get it, his moves have great frame data, damage, KO power, I can tell you more than most people about Mac's stronger points. I know how easy it must look to play him, but I strongly encourage you to enter a tournament as Mac some time. Every match will end within two minutes, whether you win or lose. Playing as Mac is a tense yet zen experience that just isn't at all like playing Yoshi, Falcon, Bowser, Shiek, Mario, Mega Man , really anybody I've researched or played. All of those guys can throw their moves out with only a risk of some damage. Death isn't a concern for other characters until they've accrued enough damage. With Mac this just isn't the case. Let them find a chink in your armor, and the match is already over. Do I even need to break out the boxing metaphors?

Mac's down smash is actually a stupidly good AND safe edgeguard, so I don't know what you're talking about when you say "one of the worst in the game."

Yes, I should break down what I meant here. Dsmash is safe, but it also requires frame perfect timing to actually hit somebody heading toward the ledge. It reaches very slightly below the lip of a stage when spaced to catch people during their ledgesnap vulnerability. The reason why I believe Mac has one of, if not the worst edgeguarding is because he can't go offstage to secure stocks. Dtilt/Dsmash are his only options when they're recovering. And other characters just have a ton more options than one move. They can run off Bair to stage spike, they might have a spike, they might have a projectile or disjointed attack with little to no risk, they might have a decent ledgetrump game like Falcon. Mac has none of those options in his kit, leaving only Dsmash. It's not just the right option, it's the only one.

The fact that the grace period of 6 seconds is even ON his KO punch is ridiculous, as I can juggle him with upairs and he can still have it by the end of the juggle

It's funny, I neglected to mention this is the one scenario where you do want to juggle Mac if you can. The aerial KO punch has no killing power, and you definitely want to waste his time. Especially since it's not like he can start building more meter toward his next KO punch while taking damage from a juggle.

and take a stock with a blocked d-tilt to KO punch. (which I would really appreciate hearing a counter for if you know any).

Dtilt to KO punch is guaranteed on opponents at low to mid percents. And 30-40% is the ideal range where Mac will desperately fish for it, since no character should survive with proper DI. But blocked Dtilt to KO punch? Dtilt's FAF is fantastic, but KO Punch takes nine frames to come out. It'll eat your shield if you just sit there, but I'm certain dodge roll and spot dodge will both get past it if you're on point. But speaking as a Mac main, when my Dtilt is blocked, I just go for more until it stabs through their shield. So if I dtilted your shield, and you spot dodged on reaction, you have to hope I immediately went for my KO punch, which isn't guaranteed. More Dtilts usually are guaranteed though as far as I've experienced. And Mac only needs to land one for the KO Punch if the opponent isn't too damaged.

My only advice is to stay off the ground. Dtilt doesn't reach very high up. And stay on platforms so he has to get in the air first to approach. Make him work for this setup.

As for edguarding, I still stand by FLUDD being your most valuable tool. Especially if you've found time to charge it up. The blast will continue far longer than an air dodge. And only a little portion of water should be enough to negate Mac's crucial air momentum. Try out Mac's aerial side B and Up B. These moves don't take him far enough to reach the ledge on their own. Ever. One MU I fear is Greninja, who can Up B at the ledge in a way that a little spurt of water shoots at me as I recover. If I don't respond correctly, that's a gimp. Mario's FLUDD does a lot more than one little spurt of water, and I encourage you to try it more. Fireballs, Cape, and Bair are really just your mixups for when FLUDD stops being foolproof.

One last piece of advice is to use moves with low knockback angles. This goes for all characters. The reason why Mario doesn't absolutely wreck Mac is because he lacks moves with such angles. Since his toolkit is centered on juggles and keeping the opponent close, Dsmash is really the only one. The only time you want to throw out Dsmash on Mac is if he's Dodge rolling too close to you.

To recap: grabs, edgeguarding, occasional projectiles and aerial combat are the key to fighting Mac. The rest that you need is skill, patience, and not panicking when he has the KO punch. There's also some harsh stages you can counterpick him to, and platform camping is a scrubby way of circumventing his entire game plan, but I don't like teaching people how to fight dishonestly.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I must confess that I'm absolutely reeling from disbelief at this. Little Mac is all risk. One critical error means a death at 20% when facing a competent player. I get it, his moves have great frame data, damage, KO power, I can tell you more than most people about Mac's stronger points. I know how easy it must look to play him, but I strongly encourage you to enter a tournament as Mac some time. Every match will end within two minutes, whether you win or lose. Playing as Mac is a tense yet zen experience that just isn't at all like playing Yoshi, Falcon, Bowser, Shiek, Mario, Mega Man , really anybody I've researched or played. All of those guys can throw their moves out with only a risk of some damage. Death isn't a concern for other characters until they've accrued enough damage. With Mac this just isn't the case. Let them find a chink in your armor, and the match is already over. Do I even need to break out the boxing metaphors?



Yes, I should break down what I meant here. Dsmash is safe, but it also requires frame perfect timing to actually hit somebody heading toward the ledge. It reaches very slightly below the lip of a stage when spaced to catch people during their ledgesnap vulnerability. The reason why I believe Mac has one of, if not the worst edgeguarding is because he can't go offstage to secure stocks. Dtilt/Dsmash are his only options when they're recovering. And other characters just have a ton more options than one move. They can run off Bair to stage spike, they might have a spike, they might have a projectile or disjointed attack with little to no risk, they might have a decent ledgetrump game like Falcon. Mac has none of those options in his kit, leaving only Dsmash. It's not just the right option, it's the only one.



It's funny, I neglected to mention this is the one scenario where you do want to juggle Mac if you can. The aerial KO punch has no killing power, and you definitely want to waste his time. Especially since it's not like he can start building more meter toward his next KO punch while taking damage from a juggle.


Dtilt to KO punch is guaranteed on opponents at low to mid percents. And 30-40% is the ideal range where Mac will desperately fish for it, since no character should survive with proper DI. But blocked Dtilt to KO punch? Dtilt's FAF is fantastic, but KO Punch takes nine frames to come out. It'll eat your shield if you just sit there, but I'm certain dodge roll and spot dodge will both get past it if you're on point. But speaking as a Mac main, when my Dtilt is blocked, I just go for more until it stabs through their shield. So if I dtilted your shield, and you spot dodged on reaction, you have to hope I immediately went for my KO punch, which isn't guaranteed. More Dtilts usually are guaranteed though as far as I've experienced. And Mac only needs to land one for the KO Punch if the opponent isn't too damaged.

My only advice is to stay off the ground. Dtilt doesn't reach very high up. And stay on platforms so he has to get in the air first to approach. Make him work for this setup.

As for edguarding, I still stand by FLUDD being your most valuable tool. Especially if you've found time to charge it up. The blast will continue far longer than an air dodge. And only a little portion of water should be enough to negate Mac's crucial air momentum. Try out Mac's aerial side B and Up B. These moves don't take him far enough to reach the ledge on their own. Ever. One MU I fear is Greninja, who can Up B at the ledge in a way that a little spurt of water shoots at me as I recover. If I don't respond correctly, that's a gimp. Mario's FLUDD does a lot more than one little spurt of water, and I encourage you to try it more. Fireballs, Cape, and Bair are really just your mixups for when FLUDD stops being foolproof.

One last piece of advice is to use moves with low knockback angles. This goes for all characters. The reason why Mario doesn't absolutely wreck Mac is because he lacks moves with such angles. Since his toolkit is centered on juggles and keeping the opponent close, Dsmash is really the only one. The only time you want to throw out Dsmash on Mac is if he's Dodge rolling too close to you.

To recap: grabs, edgeguarding, occasional projectiles and aerial combat are the key to fighting Mac. The rest that you need is skill, patience, and not panicking when he has the KO punch. There's also some harsh stages you can counterpick him to, and platform camping is a scrubby way of circumventing his entire game plan, but I don't like teaching people how to fight dishonestly.

I really want to thank you for helping me out here, dude! Your imput is really helping me out! And I've actually played a lot of Mac because of how much trouble I can have with him, but you're right about the match ending shortly most of the time, and it going either way. I used to say that a battle against Little Mac could either be a cake walk, or a nightmare, and there's really no inbetween!

The hint you gave about the low knockback angles is exactly why Mac is so difficult. Mario has a recovery that isn't great, and eats those down smashes like a champ when trying to recover, however, your FLUDD comment about air dodging isn't quite correct. I always make sure to have a fully charged FLUDD, but the best time he's useful is when someone is performing their recovery or already helpless. If you air dodge while falling right (which the high angles and Mac's double jump allow), you can pretty much avoid FLUDDs entire stream. Maybe I'll work on timing it closer to his recovery output, as it seems his up+b doesn't snap on ledges. Maybe I can stay back and spray his little boxing glove fist and see if that keeps him away instead of trying to guard close and risk eating his punch.

I think I need to play more patiently... It's just hard when he's so fast and has such brutal punishes...

Thank you for helping me out here, man! Maybe I should keep it safe and roll out of dtilts instead of trying to sidestep into grab...!