Little Mac mains, help me be a better ground fighter.

[Dream Cancel]

Hello Boxing Champs,

I'm struggling with my ground and neutral game and I need help being a better ground fighter.

Some background:

Spoiler: Background

- I'm currently playing characters like and , which fits my general playstyle extremely well, that is wait for an opening (or force an approach, like with ), wait for a mistake in close combat, then punish with something like Grab ---> combo throw ---> Fair/Nair/Uair x2 or x3 ---> Reading air dodges (sometimes into U-Smashes) ---> Gimp/Spike/Stage Spike/Off-stage Kill. Basically Ken combo variations all day long.

- I consider my neutral game the weakest part of my overall game. The reason I say this is because I struggle against heavy, spacing, and zone characters like and . Light and medium combos won't cut it against these guys because they simply won't die against a Fair at 150%. I'll push them to 150% or so and I'll be sitting pretty at 50% but they land one Rage Smash attack or one Rage aerial off-stage and my stock is gone. (Perhaps I need more Match-up information)

- The only punish I use for opponents with bad positioning is either a Grab, Dash attack, F-tilt, or a Pivot variation of these. Don't get me wrong, they are perfect punishes for the characters that I'm playing because of their follow-ups, but I'm looking for better punishes than just a Grab, mostly getting finishing Smashes as early as possible.

So how does this relate to ?

1. I'll be grounded. With the best ground game in Smash but grounded nevertheless. I can't rely on Short Hop + Fast Fall aerials anymore.
2. I can be more liberal with my Smashes since they are quick, powerful, and safe.
3. I can use my Air experience to help prevent gimps. (Mixing up Counters, high recoveries, fast-fall to Up B, ledge options, maybe the occasional Dair spike on when he's recovering low)

But the most important part of my want to be a good player is to get out of my tendency to be risk-averse, especially against shielding opponents with their backs to the ledge. ( B throw into Bair, the most annoying thing in the world, and if I avoid that I risk a spike)

TL;DR I need advice from mains on how to improve my ground and neutral game without having to rely on aerials for support, (like Short Hop + Fast Fall Nairs from and ) in typical scenarios. I will be playing a lot more often and any tips, tricks, mechanics, techs, combos, etc. that you believe could be helpful for a player like me would be greatly appreciated. (Teach me Little Mac-senpai!)

Thanks for reading,

Bay6

 

[Zeriora]

Don't jump.

 

[Dream Cancel]

Don't jump.

You know, when you put it that simply, I feel like I'm overthinking this.

I should take note from my own username. Just focus on the fundamentals.

Thanks.

 

[Zeriora]

You know, when you put it that simply, I feel like I'm overthinking this.

I should take note from my own username. Just focus on the fundamentals.

Thanks.

That was supposed to not help at all, LOL.
But, whatever no probs. I feel like little mac needs more love, I wanna help people get better at him.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

Don't jump.

This is lies. Fight a ROB and jumping to get better positioning on the stage is great. If he throws a gyro you can easily full hop fast fall right behind his gyro and then can either shield his up coming laser or jab his up coming approach. Then once you guess right you can take advantage of his gyro by grabbing it from behind you.

 

[PHYTO-1]

learn to perfect pivot and foxtrot.

perfect pivoting, while not as useful or necessary for other chars, it vastly improves little mac's meta

 

[Dream Cancel]

That was supposed to not help at all, LOL.
But, whatever no probs. I feel like little mac needs more love, I wanna help people get better at him.

This is lies. Fight a ROB and jumping to get better positioning on the stage is great. If he throws a gyro you can easily full hop fast fall right behind his gyro and then can either shield his up coming laser or jab his up coming approach. Then once you guess right you can take advantage of his gyro by grabbing it from behind you.

I think Little Mac has the most potential in all of Smash if you play perfectly. If you have superior play than I don't think you'll lose with him since he's so good on the ground... Although playing perfectly is the hard part lol.

Certain MU's like R.O.B. give me trouble so if I can figure this out with Little Mac I know I can do it with others. Thanks

learn to perfect pivot and foxtrot.

perfect pivoting, while not as useful or necessary for other chars, it vastly improves little mac's meta

I already know how to do them, it's a matter of consciously doing it since it's not needed as much for my most played characters. At best I use Pivot F-Smashes and Pivot Grabs only occasionally. That and mixing up foxtrotting with his ridiculously fast rolls can really mess people up.

I think I just need to simply start playing faster. Perfect pivoting, foxtrotting, rolling, and throwing out out jabs can really get people on their toes and get them nervous.

 

[Virum]

I think Little Mac has the most potential in all of Smash if you play perfectly. If you have superior play than I don't think you'll lose with him since he's so good on the ground... Although playing perfectly is the hard part lol.

No, this is wrong. Or at the very least it's a flawed argument because in order for it to be reasonable you have to also assume the opponent is playing "perfectly" or optimally. Mac played optimally is a force, but optimal opponents will still be able to exploit his weaknesses better than he can exploit theirs.

With Mac, don't think of his primary game as his ground game but rather his onstage game. As soon as you begin to acknowledge what all his tools can do on the main stage you begin to gain a greater grasp of the character as a whole. Movement on the ground is probably the most important thing overall. Little Mac having the third fastest run speed and one of the best dashes in the game (his foxtrot goes faster than Falcon's run) would tempt you to always running, but Mac has a good walk speed too so knowing when to walk and when to run is important as it allows you to better control the pace of the neutral game. Another important thing to learn (alongside perfect pivoting as mentioned before) is the extended dash dance or dashtrotting. This is when you foxtrot then immediately dash dance in the opposite direction so understanding the foxtrot timing is essential (inputs are => => <= <= => etc). This allows you to quickly cover space in a similar vain to Melee's dash dance. Combined with perfect pivoting it gives Mac some of the most terrifying ground movement in the game.

However, the value of jumping should not be ignored. Mac obviously can't effectively approach with his short hop aerials, however empty jumps can be used as baits and since his aerials, while they're weak and have pitiful range, come out fast they can be used to stuff your opponents empty jump mix-up attempts and bring them back to ground level (FAir is particularly good at this). Then of course you have stuff like DAir being able to jab reset if you're able to capitalise off of a knockdown (FThrow, FAir and Down Angled FSmash most notably).

Of course from there you have your actual ground moves, the powerhouse attacks. Closing the gap and spacing tilts on shield for pressure (DTilt most notably) is a strong part of Mac's zoning and pressure game. From there you can begin to shut down your opponents options and possibly break through their defenses.

 

[inconspikuous]

No, this is wrong. Or at the very least it's a flawed argument because in order for it to be reasonable you have to also assume the opponent is playing "perfectly" or optimally. Mac played optimally is a force, but optimal opponents will still be able to exploit his weaknesses better than he can exploit theirs.

i've been thinking about this 'perfect mac' meta -- before, i used to dismiss it outright because honestly, no one will be able to 'play perfect' 100% of the time, and he's got too many weaknesses etc.. but (here's the crazy part) it's possible that mac could be the best in the game if played perfectly. if there was a mac that was frame perfect, theoretically he could not lose -- imagine a CPU that always picked an optimal spacing for every superarmor trade, that abused the jolt haymaker and rising upper invincibility frames, that could not get grabbed because it could react faster than humanly possible to the grab input, that would always connect with the KO punch...

...of course there's no real hope for that kind of player because he doesn't exist. only a CPU that could read inputs could do that. but it's a nice idea that in some alternate universe there's a mac on top of the metagame never getting thrown, or gimped, or knocked offstage because every hit landed on him was traded with a superarmor smash. lol.

 

[PHYTO-1]

i've been thinking about this 'perfect mac' meta -- before, i used to dismiss it outright because honestly, no one will be able to 'play perfect' 100% of the time, and he's got too many weaknesses etc.. but (here's the crazy part) it's possible that mac could be the best in the game if played perfectly. if there was a mac that was frame perfect, theoretically he could not lose -- imagine a CPU that always picked an optimal spacing for every superarmor trade, that abused the jolt haymaker and rising upper invincibility frames, that could not get grabbed because it could react faster than humanly possible to the grab input, that would always connect with the KO punch...

...of course there's no real hope for that kind of player because he doesn't exist. only a CPU that could read inputs could do that. but it's a nice idea that in some alternate universe there's a mac on top of the metagame never getting thrown, or gimped, or knocked offstage because every hit landed on him was traded with a superarmor smash. lol.

but only if mac is on the ground. otherwise another char played at an equally TAS-like level could simply platform camp and stall. if mac is forced to approach in the air then he is at a disadvantage.

 

[inconspikuous]

but only if mac is on the ground. otherwise another char played at an equally TAS-like level could simply platform camp and stall. if mac is forced to approach in the air then he is at a disadvantage.

true. but that's in another boring alternate universe where platform camping, planking, and stalling is at the top of the metagame. wait...

 

[Dream Cancel]

Spoiler: SiLeNtDo0m's Quote

No, this is wrong. Or at the very least it's a flawed argument because in order for it to be reasonable you have to also assume the opponent is playing "perfectly" or optimally. Mac played optimally is a force, but optimal opponents will still be able to exploit his weaknesses better than he can exploit theirs.

With Mac, don't think of his primary game as his ground game but rather his onstage game. As soon as you begin to acknowledge what all his tools can do on the main stage you begin to gain a greater grasp of the character as a whole. Movement on the ground is probably the most important thing overall. Little Mac having the third fastest run speed and one of the best dashes in the game (his foxtrot goes faster than Falcon's run) would tempt you to always running, but Mac has a good walk speed too so knowing when to walk and when to run is important as it allows you to better control the pace of the neutral game. Another important thing to learn (alongside perfect pivoting as mentioned before) is the extended dash dance or dashtrotting. This is when you foxtrot then immediately dash dance in the opposite direction so understanding the foxtrot timing is essential (inputs are => => <= <= => etc). This allows you to quickly cover space in a similar vain to Melee's dash dance. Combined with perfect pivoting it gives Mac some of the most terrifying ground movement in the game.

However, the value of jumping should not be ignored. Mac obviously can't effectively approach with his short hop aerials, however empty jumps can be used as baits and since his aerials, while they're weak and have pitiful range, come out fast they can be used to stuff your opponents empty jump mix-up attempts and bring them back to ground level (FAir is particularly good at this). Then of course you have stuff like DAir being able to jab reset if you're able to capitalise off of a knockdown (FThrow, FAir and Down Angled FSmash most notably).

Of course from there you have your actual ground moves, the powerhouse attacks. Closing the gap and spacing tilts on shield for pressure (DTilt most notably) is a strong part of Mac's zoning and pressure game. From there you can begin to shut down your opponents options and possibly break through their defenses.

That makes total sense. (Although your perception of my argument being "reasonable" is entirely subjective.) Allow me to clarify; I made the assumption that the player playing Little Mac is simply a better player than his opponent and manages Little Mac so well that he essentially plays perfectly. I ignored the fact that, of two players of roughly the same skill level, Little Mac tends to have a disadvantage because his weaknesses outweigh his strengths. My bad for the confusion.

But you're right, and I really appreciate the advice. Thanks (and how is it being a Project M developer?)

i've been thinking about this 'perfect mac' meta -- before, i used to dismiss it outright because honestly, no one will be able to 'play perfect' 100% of the time, and he's got too many weaknesses etc.. but (here's the crazy part) it's possible that mac could be the best in the game if played perfectly. if there was a mac that was frame perfect, theoretically he could not lose -- imagine a CPU that always picked an optimal spacing for every superarmor trade, that abused the jolt haymaker and rising upper invincibility frames, that could not get grabbed because it could react faster than humanly possible to the grab input, that would always connect with the KO punch...

...of course there's no real hope for that kind of player because he doesn't exist. only a CPU that could read inputs could do that. but it's a nice idea that in some alternate universe there's a mac on top of the metagame never getting thrown, or gimped, or knocked offstage because every hit landed on him was traded with a superarmor smash. lol.

Imagine a Little Mac amiibo... o_o Although technically speaking "perfect" play from two people or CPUs would result in basically a never-ending war for positioning... something's gotta give.

However, I would like to see a Little Mac main that is just that good...

I've selected my mains, and they are and . No, I didn't choose them because of ZeRo's new video lol. I've been considering them for a while but in the meantime I had been practicing on my mechanics, techs, and mix-ups. I'm still aiming to become proficient with every character so I know as much as I can before I really start going ham online. (and possibly attending a local tournament )