List of moves upper dash arm does NOT work on...

[Yong Dekonk]

After maining Pit for about a month now I have encountered several moves that, seemingly for no reason, trump Pit's upper dash arm. There are moves that are perhaps equal in priority to the upper dash arm but because they reach Pit's hurt box they appear to prioritize it. There are also ranged attacks that don't reflect or reflect at an unusable angle. I would like to compile a list of all moves (projectile or normal) that either trump Pit's side special or aren't reflected by it. I have a feeling there are quite a few and there's nothing worse than realizing that you got KO'd because of this inconsistency.

I'm going to attempt to create categories and update this list based on everyone's contributions. Please try to explain what happens when the opposing move meets the upperdash arm.

Edit:

Moves that upperdash flat out loses to:

Mario: dash attack (reaches Pit's hurtbox)

Moves that should reflect but don't, or moves that reflect at a stupid/useless angle.

Ness: Pika fire (no reflection)

Kirby up special (no reflection)

Rosaluma charged side special (despite upperdash reflective properties this sends Luma upward)

Zero Suit charged special (as I recall it reflects at an unusable angle)

Peach turnip (unusable reflective angle)

Toon Link Bomb (unusable reflective angle)

Yoshi Eggs (unusable reflective angle)

Mr. G+W Bacon (no reflection)

Moves that have inconsistent results when hit by upperdash.

Falcon jab (may go through upperdash)

Dedede dair

Greninja dair

Shulk down smash.

Yoshi rollout (cancels rollout but does no damage, this one really annoys me)

Jigglypuff rollout (cancels both moves when fully charged rollout meets upperdash, I think upperdash wins the matchup of rollout isn't fully charged.)

Still to be researched:
Robin projectiles
Zelda down special
Pikmin smash and toss
Mega man side special
Duck Hunt everything



I will add as more contributions are made.

 

[ReRaze]

These don't necessarily trump upperdash but are inconsistent from my experience

captain falcons jab and fsmash,

greninjas dair and fsmash

king dededes dair

shulk dsmash

and heaps others i cant really remember off the top of my head e.g some of jigglypuffs moves.

 

[O1DsLeNdYwHiTe]

What do you mean by trump? Like, the attack itself cancels upperdash altogether, or is out prioritized?

 

[Yong Dekonk]

I guess I meant just in the broad sense of which moves is upper dash arm ineffective against in one way or the other.

 

[ReRaze]

What do you mean by trump? Like, the attack itself cancels upperdash altogether, or is out prioritized?

e.g captain falcons jab sometimes seems to complete ignore the upperdash, jabbing right through it and effectively cancelling it out. Super armour was completly ignored.

 

[SoulRed12]

In general, upperdash reflects almost everything at a weird diagonal angle rather than back at the opponent. So far Pikachu's thunder jolt is the only thing I know of that upperdash actually reflects back at the opponent, and only once it's traveling across the ground.

Also, I just tested and it does reflect PK fire, though I can't tell in which direction. I can't test Kirby's final cutter because the stupid bot won't use the move, haha.

For the physical moves, keep in mind that upperdash's super armor is not present for the entire length of the move. It starts shortly after Pit starts dashing forward, and ends shortly before the dash ends. So the reason those moves are inconsistent is probably because they are hitting Pit at different times in his attack.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

These don't necessarily trump upperdash but are inconsistent from my experience

captain falcons jab and fsmash,

greninjas dair and fsmash

king dededes dair

shulk dsmash

and heaps others i cant really remember off the top of my head e.g some of jigglypuffs moves.

In general, upperdash reflects almost everything at a weird diagonal angle rather than back at the opponent. So far Pikachu's thunder jolt is the only thing I know of that upperdash actually reflects back at the opponent, and only once it's traveling across the ground.

Also, I just tested and it does reflect PK fire, though I can't tell in which direction. I can't test Kirby's final cutter because the stupid bot won't use the move, haha.

For the physical moves, keep in mind that upperdash's super armor is not present for the entire length of the move. It starts shortly after Pit starts dashing forward, and ends shortly before the dash ends. So the reason those moves are inconsistent is probably because they are hitting Pit at different times in his attack.

There are several projectiles that upperdash reflects directly.

Samus fast missile and charge shot
Lucario charged special
Link/toon link arrows and side special
Mario/luigi fireballs
Fox/falco lasers
Villager side special/dash attack (my personal favorite)
Pit/dark pit arrows



There are many others that are direct reflectors. This is aggravating because all other reflectors in the game are direct reflectors.

I'm aware of the upperdash' super armor frames, however, even a properly timed upperdash will lose to Mario's dash attack. Test it for yourself. There are other moves that do the same thing and I want to start keeping track.

Also, Ness's pika fire may reflect inconsistently. Last time I tried to reflect it I heard the sound indicating upperdash reflected it but nothing happened. The pika fire was simply gone. More testing must be done I guess!

 

[SoulRed12]

There are many others that are direct reflectors. This is aggravating because all other reflectors in the game are direct reflectors.

I'm aware of the upperdash' super armor frames, however, even a properly timed upperdash will lose to Mario's dash attack. Test it for yourself. There are other moves that do the same thing and I want to start keeping track.

Also, Ness's pika fire may reflect inconsistently. Last time I tried to reflect it I heard the sound indicating upperdash reflected it but nothing happened. The pika fire was simply gone. More testing must be done I guess!

Frankly, IMO side+B should never be intentionally used as a reflector (in other words, you predict a projectile, so you side+B to reflect it) anyway, considering you have down+B and the startup is similar. Side+B also stops dead when you hit the projectile and leaves you open for quite a few frames, whereas at least down+B keeps opponents a bit away from you before you have to suffer the end lag. Even standard shield is more often the better option than side+B to protect yourself from projectiles unless it's something you think will break it. So ultimately, for me, inconsistent reflection properties doesn't matter much, although it is a bit odd. (I will say that "stuffing" a projectile is a pretty good use of the move, though. In other words, using the move to reflect a predicted projectile and hit the opponent at the same time. In that case though, I'm still not using it to hit the opponent with the projectile, so the trajectory again doesn't matter to me.)

I haven't tested against Mario's dash attack, but assuming you're right, I suspect it's because he goes underneath the upperdash (thus avoiding the hit) but his hitbox stays out for so long that it interrupts the move as Pit attempts to swing upward. Very fast attacks like Falcon's jabs might do something similar, triggering upperdash but somehow hitting Pit before he can hit the opponent.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

Frankly, IMO side+B should never be intentionally used as a reflector (in other words, you predict a projectile, so you side+B to reflect it) anyway, considering you have down+B and the startup is similar. Side+B also stops dead when you hit the projectile and leaves you open for quite a few frames, whereas at least down+B keeps opponents a bit away from you before you have to suffer the end lag. Even standard shield is more often the better option than side+B to protect yourself from projectiles unless it's something you think will break it. So ultimately, for me, inconsistent reflection properties doesn't matter much, although it is a bit odd. (I will say that "stuffing" a projectile is a pretty good use of the move, though. In other words, using the move to reflect a predicted projectile and hit the opponent at the same time. In that case though, I'm still not using it to hit the opponent with the projectile, so the trajectory again doesn't matter to me.)

I haven't tested against Mario's dash attack, but assuming you're right, I suspect it's because he goes underneath the upperdash (thus avoiding the hit) but his hitbox stays out for so long that it interrupts the move as Pit attempts to swing upward. Very fast attacks like Falcon's jabs might do something similar, triggering upperdash but somehow hitting Pit before he can hit the opponent.

While the orbiters are better reflectors, the upperdash has a slightly faster startup. In fact, orbitars are too slow in startup for many scenarios and still have significant ending lag. I prefer the upperdash for reflecting projectiles in certain situations if I don't think I can get the orbitars out in time or I think I can both reflect the projectile and hit the opponent with upperdash. Also, projectiles that stop or turn around are often used for spacing. It is sometimes easier to reflect Toon Link's boomerang with upperdash because you can wait safely out of range and dash in and reflect it during its turnaround.

Also, if you are dashing toward your opponent and they fire a projectile you can't activate your down b while dashing but you CAN use the upperdash. This would be very effective if it worked on Ness's pika fire or Zero Suit's charged special. But for some reason it doesn't.


There's really no reason falcon's jab should go through upperdash while moves like Marth's charged special do not. I would also argue that Mario's dash attack shouldn't "go under" the upperdash arm when it doesn't go under other horizontal based smash attacks like Pit's smash attack.

 

[SoulRed12]

Actually, when I predict a projectile, I've done a dash-->down B quite a lot, and it works pretty great. Even that aside, the startups are almost the same but regardless of which is technically faster, orbitars are all-around safer just based on the nature of the moves. For a similar reason, if you're running toward someone, just shielding (or even jumping) is a much better option than upperdash (faster and safer). Upperdash is a bad approach option all around, and a poor defensive one too.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

While the orbiters are better reflectors, the upperdash has a slightly faster startup. In fact, orbitars are too slow in startup for many scenarios and still have significant ending lag. I prefer the upperdash for reflecting projectiles in certain situations if I don't think I can get the orbitars out in time or I think I can both reflect the projectile and hit the opponent with upperdash.


There's really no reason falcon's jab should go through upperdash while moves like Marth's charged special do not. I would also argue that Mario's dash attack shouldn't "go under" the upperdash arm when it doesn't go under other horizontal based smash attacks like Pit's smash attack.

Actually, when I predict a projectile, I've done a dash-->down B quite a lot, and it works pretty great. Even that aside, the startups are almost the same but regardless of which is technically faster, orbitars are all-around safer just based on the nature of the moves. For a similar reason, if you're running toward someone, just shielding (or even jumping) is a much better option than upperdash (faster and safer). Upperdash is a bad approach option all around, and a poor defensive one too.

Upperdash is a poor approach option, I will not argue that. However, when it comes to reflecting from dash I would still argue that upperdash is better. It's a much faster startup and just easier to input. The orbitars are STILL going to leave you open for a dash attack or grab if you miss whereas the upperdash is only worse if you space it poorly and your opponent can punish you with a smash attack. There are MANY situations where you don't have time to activate the down b but you can activate the upperdash. Why just shield if you know you can reflect with upperdash? Dont use upperdash to reflect unless you KNOW a projectile is on its way though. And like I said, imagine how much better the ZSS Samus/Ness matchup would be if you could reflect the pika fire and charged special. It would effectively neutralize much of the threat of pika fire and ZSS charged special because those moves are easy to hit with upperdash but hard to hit with the orbitars.

That brings me back to my initial point that upperdash should be more reliable than it is. We shouldn't be forced to shield some projectiles because they don't reflect. There's no logical reason why some projectiles reflect while others don't.

 

[SoulRed12]

And like I said, imagine how much better the ZSS Samus/Ness matchup would be if you could reflect the pika fire and charged special. It would effectively neutralize much of the threat of pika fire and ZSS charged special because those moves are easy to hit with upperdash but hard to hit with the orbitars.

That brings me back to my initial point that upperdash should be more reliable than it is. We shouldn't be forced to shield some projectiles because they don't reflect. There's no logical reason why some projectiles reflect while others don't.

Well, yeah, it would be nice if it actually did reflect things properly, but only in the same way any buff to our character would be cool. The thing is, given the orbitars already reflect, I just don't think it was really meant by the developers to be used as a reflector (rather, as a deflector), so they didn't give much thought to consistency.

That said, Link's Hylian shield blocks a previously-pocketed, reflected fully charged Samus charge beam with a "tink," yet Falco's pew pews can't be blocked, so I guess there is a case to be made that the inconsistencies are just stupidity on the developers' part, haha.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

Well, yeah, it would be nice if it actually did reflect things properly, but only in the same way any buff to our character would be cool. The thing is, given the orbitars already reflect, I just don't think it was really meant by the developers to be used as a reflector (rather, as a deflector), so they didn't give much thought to consistency.

That said, Link's Hylian shield blocks a previously-pocketed, reflected fully charged Samus charge beam with a "tink," yet Falco's pew pews can't be blocked, so I guess there is a case to be made that the inconsistencies are just stupidity on the developers' part, haha.

It IS stupidity on the developers part. I would argue that upperdash is one of the most inconsistent moves in the game. It sometimes behaves very strangely against certain moves which is why I started this thread so that Pit mains can contribute their observations so that we can use upperdash effectively.

 

[SoulRed12]

It IS stupidity on the developers part.

IMO you're assuming facts not in evidence. We can't know for sure that it was stupidity (i.e., programming mistakes/oversights), or if it was just a lack of caring because of what the move was and wasn't supposed to be. All we know is what the move is as it was released. Nevertheless, this thread is not useless, so I'll stop being offtopic and leave it at that.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

IMO you're assuming facts not in evidence. We can't know for sure that it was stupidity (i.e., programming mistakes/oversights), or if it was just a lack of caring because of what the move was and wasn't supposed to be. All we know is what the move is as it was released. Nevertheless, this thread is not useless, so I'll stop being offtopic and leave it at that.

I'm not saying it was all unintentional or lazy programming. Most of upper dashes shortcomings are probably intentional while moves like falcon's jab was probably unintentional. Mario's dash attack was intentional but inane. Furthermore, it is illogical that aforementioned projectiles can be reflected directly while others cannot be reflected at all or reflect at a useless angle. The discrepancies in functionality of the upperdash are perhaps arbitrary and definitely illogical.

That said I have added to the first post more findings as well as more moves that I'd like to analyze.

 

[SoulRed12]

I'm not saying it was all unintentional or lazy programming. Most of upper dashes shortcomings are probably intentional while moves like falcon's jab was probably unintentional. Mario's dash attack was intentional but inane. Furthermore, it is illogical that aforementioned projectiles can be reflected directly while others cannot be reflected at all or reflect at a useless angle. The discrepancies in functionality of the upperdash are perhaps arbitrary and definitely illogical.

That said I have added to the first post more findings as well as more moves that I'd like to analyze.

What I was getting at is, they're only illogical once you've determined the developers' intent.

One way or another, it doesn't matter. It is what it is, now it's our job as players to figure out how it works.