Link Stage Counterpick Discussion

[EmptySky00]

It might just be my limited perspective, but I feel like this is a topic that is underdiscussed and it might help a lot of people, including myself, if we had a comprehensive list of potential bans/counterpicks in various MU's. Counterpicking is an integral part of tournament success and as such I tried making a thread about a year ago asking people which stages they liked and disliked as certain characters, but that became really subjective and no one could come to an agreement on anything. So this time, if you could explain why a stage gives a tactical advantage/disadvantage so that people know what aspects they should be playing to when choosing the stage, that would be fantastic. Try not to say comfort picks are counterpicks as well. I personally would like to be able to go into each matchup with a stage picking strategy already on hand.
From my understanding, Link is a character that is versatile enough to function well on a myriad of stages, and the general goal for counterpicking should be to cut off the stages your opponent benefits most from and choose the stages that hinder them the most as opposed to, say, Fox choosing Yoshi's Story for the stupid lethality boost or something along those lines.

---
I'll start with what I already know.

Bowser: CP - Final Destination
Bans - Yoshi's Story, Warioware

Diddy Kong: CP - FoD, Warioware, Yoshi's Story
Bans - Smashville

Falco: CP -
Bans -

Falcon: CP - Fountain of Dreams, Green Hill Zone, Yoshi's Story
Bans - Dreamland, Final Destination

Fox: CP - Final Destination
Bans - Yoshi's Story, Dreamland

Ganondorf: CP - Final Destination
Bans - Yoshi's Story, Warioware

Game and Watch: CP - Final Destination
Bans -

Ice Climbers: CP - Warioware
Bans - Final Destination, Smashville

Ike: CP -
Bans -

Lucas: CP -
Bans - Smashville

Marth: CP - Dreamland, Delfino's Secret
Bans - Yoshi's Story, FoD, Warioware

Mewtwo: CP -
Bans - Smashville

Peach: CP -
Bans - Dreamland

Samus: CP - Yoshi's Story,
Bans - Pokemon Stadium 2, Dreamland, Delfino's Secret

Sheik: CP - Yoshi's Story, Pokemon Stadium 2
Bans - Fountain of Dreams, Battlefield

Snake: CP -
Bans -

Sonic: CP - Yoshi's Story, Warioware, FoD, Battlefield
Bans - Final Destination, Dreamland

Jigglypuff: CP -
Bans -

Zelda: CP - Final Destination
Bans - Yoshi's Story

 

[Heero Yuy]

Falcon: CP - FoD
Bans - DL

 

[un.dead]

Never mind this I guess

 

[EmptySky00]

@ Heero Yuy My assumption is that the varying platforms mess with his movement and he doesn't have a lot of space to move around on FoD and on Dreamland he has plenty of space to run circles around us. So in general we want smaller stages where he can't abuse his mobility options in neutral against us. Yoshi's Story is traditionally a Falcon CP too right?

@ U un.dead But FD is generally Link's go-to pick against heavies because there's so much space to keep them out, and smaller stages would allow him to choke out space more effectively to actually get in on us. But I'm assuming that you don't want FD because of the lack of platforms and DK's cargo combos would just annihilate us.

 

[Titanium]

I definitely agree that stage bans and counterpicks should be focused around the opposing character. That said, I'll put down a few ideas.

Assuming your style allows bomb jumping (uses up-b rarely) or bomb thrusting as reddit names it, I'd advise large stages such as Dreamland. Arrows provide us with a good way to gimp opponents, while we in turn are a difficult character to gimp thanks to bomb AGTs decreasing the likelihood of an opponent either coming out or holding the ledge against us. Exceptions to this rule would include Kirby, Dedede and Jigglypuff as they are unlikely to be gimped and gain more out of large stages than we do. An issue of note arises for Ice Climbers, Pikachu, ROB, Mario, Tink, Link and Sheik as their projectiles can hit us below the ledge at a 45 degree angle; one only needs to keep this issue in mind and not bomb jump/thrust while in danger. Ivysaur, Diddy Kong, Pit, Dedede, Lucas, Ness, Rob have projectiles that not only can hit below the stage, but also can travel below the 45 so the logic of large stages for Link's recovery against them is of no use.

Otherwise, it's all counterpick around the characer to me. If I can't use our recovery for better purposes than the opponent, I just aim to cut off his options.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Precisely @ E EmptySky00 . Falcon can also live super long on DL, so don't ever go for the star KO.

Here's my two cents for Diddy:
CP - FoD
Ban - Smashville

I can't really say why, but in my personal experience Diddys love/hate the selected stages.

Edit: I think YS and GHZ are both good for Link against Falcon.

 

[EmptySky00]

So against Ice Climbers I was told that FD was death against them because we don't have platforms to utilize to keep away from their punish game. On that same note, I CP'd Warioware against Fumbles when I played him in tournament, and I managed to win that game. I don't want to make an assumption off of that single experience though because apparently he just hates that stage. Any thoughts?

 

[JAC]

The G&W match up can be a bit rough in the beginning. If the player is consistent with his JC grabs there is a chain grab super early on, which puts link in a bad position and makes him combo food. From my experience giving G&W the room to escape and reestablish neutral gives him a bigger advantage than you might think. Bringing him to bigger stages isn't always the best option.

my suggestion is
G&W
CP: Battle field, yoshi story, yoshi story
Bans: FoD, DL 64, Wario land.

I know that link usually needs some space to pull out projectiles, but it's so vitally important to pin G&W down in the first stock or he will take it. Battle field and yoshi prevent chain grabs from getting too excessive, but more importantly the size of battle field and especially yoshi story means that you can touch just about any part of the stage with your projectiles if they are well managed. This is great for not letting G&W escape to reestablish neutral, because if he uses Up B to escape he can't really float away across the stage away from Up Airs, or any other punish you want.

Yoshi story in particular is a stage where it can be hard to get away from Link. Because the blast zones are so close it is not quite as important to make sure that your Up B isn't stale, so this frees it up to be used on stage of which it covers most. Link's grab, while slow, cover a significant portion of the stage. This makes reaching for a grab after they shield a projectile much easier. The walls on the side also make it easier to punish G&W's super long vertical recovery by hanging a Dair below the ledge when they are trying to sweet spot. One last thought on this stage is that G&W is REALLY light hits pretty hard, link is heavy and also hits hard.

If you absolutely need more space then you can come here, but the only reason I would come here is to negate the chain grabs and punish recovery with the walls, but this really could be another stage. The slants on the edges of the stage make it so that G&W's dtilt extends below the stage. Be careful.

Some last thoughts on smaller stages. The use of items and projectiles on these smaller stages is more about optimal use, harassment, and reach. Unlike on bigger stages the item game is not about being able to get away and rack up % its more about extending the reach of the character to cover the entire stage, locking the opponent down in a web of projectiles and capitalizing.

 

[EmptySky00]

The issue is that link destroys gaw in neutral because he has a really hard time getting in through projectiles and disjoint, not to mention that his combo weight facilitates boomerang conversions. Him escaping back to neutral is just him going back to a situation where he loses. Gaw has to win the punish game because there's no way he's winning neutral against us. So any stage that lets us perpetuate neutral and mitigate gaw punishment is what I aim for.

That being said, he's not a character of high longevity so yoshis makes him fold to stray fairs and Uair strings a lot faster. Also he has a hard time sweet spotting due to the high floor blast zone. It's worth noting that dthrow dair obliterates him and the low platforms **** with that a bit. But at that point you can just Uair him through it.

 

[JesteRace]

Against the prominent characters in my scene, this is what I do(most are MU-based, some are based on just knowing my opponent)

Marth
CP: FD, Dreamland, YI Brawl
Ban: YI Melee, FOD, GHZ

Fox
CP: FD, PS2,
Ban: YI Melee, FOD

Wolf
CP: FD, Dreamland
Ban: YI Melee, FOD

Falco/Sheik
CP: Luigi

Mario
CP: Battlefield, Wario Ware
Ban: Dreamland, FD

Falcon
CP: Wario Ware, FOD
Ban: PS2, Dreamland

Kirby
CP: FD
Ban: FOD, Dreamland

Squirtle
CP: FD, Dreamland
Ban: YI Melee, GHZ

Lucario
CP: Dreamland, DP
Ban: GHZ

Ganon
CP: FD, YI Brawl
Ban: GHZ, YI Melee

Roy
CP: YI Brawl, FD
Ban: FOD, GHZ

Dedede
CP: FD, Battlefield
Ban: Dreamland, Smashville

Wario
CP: Dreamland, DP
Ban: Smashville, Wario Ware

DK
CP: BF, Dreamland
Ban: GHZ, Smashville (?)

Personally, my favorite stages to be on as Link are Battlefield, PS2, Wario Ware, and YI Brawl. I CP FD a lot, though, since it's obviously such a great Link stage save for a few matchups. I don't agree with banning it against DK though. Sure, Link gets combo'd if DK gets in, but he struggles so hard to get in on Link. Link also combos DK pretty well and doesn't have as hard a time setting stuff up. Every time a DK has CP'd me to FD, I've destroyed them.

 

[jtm94]

@ JAC
I think Link does well against GnW on pretty much every stage. GnW will die earlier on every stage and struggle to get in on every stage. You can put out a lot of projectiles to cover space as GnW(bacon), but because of the unfavorable arc and undesirable trajectories you can always throw more meaningful projectiles under it. This means GnW will either have to take to the air(bad idea) or rely on powershield which isn't that effective against Link. Yes Link doesn't have the fastest movement, but neither does GnW and because of his projectiles he can keep GnW from getting in. One of the only ways to approach is via using an aerial(fair/bair) to cut through rang/arrows/bombs, but the end lag of throwing that projectile is over before GnW gets there meaning you can punish it via dash attack, zair, etc. The effective range of using an aerial to ward off projectiles and still hit Link is around the area where Link can threaten with zair. This means Link has the option to stop GnW at every range, but close. GnW has incredibly fast close-range ground moves like dtilt/jab so it's possible Link might not be able to win that war, especially because of how easily you can CC Link's moves, duck under projectiles at this range, as well as ducking grab. GnW has a good recovery, but he dies early. Even with DJ if you can nail him with Spin Attack above medium percents he's forced to expend his DJ to try and recover making his UpB that much easier to intercept if it will make it back at all.

TL;DR
Keep GnW away by throwing stuff until you make him realize he cannot win if he doesn't approach, get him in the range where you can threaten via zair/dash attack/launcher, get him into the air and keep him there until he dies. Resetting to neutral isn't that bad against GnW the MU is mostly dictated by punish game, but Link has the bonus of being able to get in far more damage off of ranged projectiles.

 

[BballLuke13]

As a Sonic and Link main, I'd say don't let a Sonic take you to Smashville either. The stage is somewhat larger, so you can't control as much with your projectiles, and Sonic gets a platform to help him avoid said projectiles. That, and Smashville is a great stage for Sonic; plenty of room for him to roll around at the speed of sound.

 

[EmptySky00]

I prefer platforms against sonic because it gives you the ability to actually pin him in a bad position. You want to be able to bottleneck his movement in some capacity. I can understand how he'd be able to fight us well on SV though.

 

[JesteRace]

Bumping this to attempt to make a list of CP's and bans for all MU's. The stagelist I'm using for this is YS/GHZ/FoD/WW/SV/BF/PS2/DS/FD/DL

Wario
CP-DL/BF/DS
Bans-FD/SV/GHZ

Mario
CP-DL/BF/DS
Bans-FD/SV/GHZ

Luigi
CP-FD/PS2/SV
Bans-DL/FoD/YS

Peach
CP-BF/DL/DS
Bans-FD/SV/GHZ

Bowser
CP-FD/DS/DL
Bans-WW/YS/FoD

Yoshi
CP-DL/DS/BF
Bans-GHZ/SV/FoD

DK
CP-DL/DS/PS2
Bans-GHZ/SV/FoD

Diddy
CP-WW/FoD/YS
Bans-FD/PS2/SV

Falcon
CP-FoD/WW/YS
Bans-FD/DL/DS

Wolf
CP-FD/DL/PS2
Bans-WW/YS/FoD

Fox
CP-WW/BF/FoD
Bans-FD/SV/PS2

Falco
CP-DL/BF/WW
Bans-GHZ/SV/FD

Ice Climbers
CP-WW/FoD/BF
Bans-FD/SV/GHZ

Zelda
CP-DL/BF/DS
Bans-FD/SV/GHZ

Sheik
CP-FD/SV/PS2
Bans-YS/FoD/WW

Link
CP-lol
Bans-lol

Toon Link
CP-WW/GHZ/FoD
Bans-FD/DL/DS

Ganondorf
CP-FD/SV/PS2
Bans-WW/YS/FoD

Mewtwo
CP-FD/DL/GHZ
Bans-SV/WW/BF

Lucario
CP-DL/BF/DS
Bans-FD/SV/GHZ

Jigglypuff
CP-FD/SV/PS2
Bans-YS/GHZ/FoD

Pikachu
CP-FD/PS2/SV
Bans-FoD/WW/YS

Squirtle
CP-DL/BF/FD
Bans-YS/WW/GHZ

Ivysaur
CP-FD/DL/DS
Bans-WW/FoD/YS

Charizard
CP-FD/DL/DS
Bans-FoD/WW/YS

Samus
CP-FD/SV/GHZ
Bans-PS2/FoD/YS

ZSS
CP-FD/SV/DL
Bans-BF/YS/FoD

Ness
CP-FD/SV/PS2
Bans-BF/DL/YS

Lucas
CP-FD/DL/GHZ
Bans-SV/BF/WW

Pit
CP-FD/SV/GHZ
Bans-BF/DL/YS

Kirby
CP-FD/SV/PS2
Bans-WW/YS/FoD

Metaknight
CP-FD/SV/PS2
Bans-WW/YS/FoD

Dedede
CP-FD/SV/PS2
Bans-WW/FoD/YS

Ike
CP-FD/SV/GHZ
Bans-BF/DL/DS

Marth
CP-FD/DL/PS2
Bans-FoD/WW/YS

Roy
CP-FD/DL/PS2
Bans-GHZ/WW/YS

Olimar
CP-SV/GHZ/PS2
Bans-BF/DL/YS

ROB
CP-FD/PS2/DL
Bans-YS/FoD/WW

G&W
CP-FD/SV/PS2
Bans-WW/FoD/YS

Snake
CP-DL/BF/WW
Bans-GHZ/FD/SV

Sonic
CP-WW/FoD/YS
Bans-FD/SV/PS2

I'll be honest. Obviously, quite a few of these are guesses, so if you see something way wrong, let me know.

 

[EmptySky00]

It's better to have guesses to consider or debate than to have silence. Which quite honestly is the prevailing force behind this place. Contributions are much appreciated. I'll supply feedback if I ever climb out of my existential depression (have time from college).

 

[Capt. NeckBeard]

JesteRace
You have down Dreamland as a counterpick against snake and peach, I wouldn't recommend that. Even in the face of projectiles, peach would have a lot of room to move around and recover, she just generally takes forever to kill on dreamland. For snake on the other hand, he can use his down b to blow himself up and recover from far away, the high ceiling would also stop this recovery from killing him until higher percents.

 

[JesteRace]

Was definitely guessing against Snake. I have zero experience in that matchup. As for Peach, it was sort of a guess (Battlefield is my first choice for a CP), but I'm not too worried about it taking her longer to die when she still loses neutral 9 times out of 10 and dthrow>dair is still pretty free at the higher kill percent. Still, I suppose there's no real advantage to me picking that stage myself.

Also, my state has begun running Bowser's Castle. How do you guys feel about this stage? I love it personally. It's a good CP against Marth if he bans FD and DL and I also like it for Falco. I think it's just a good Link stage in general.