Link MU chart V2.0

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

V1.0

-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:

V2.0

-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:

Changes:
-3 -> -2
-3 -> -2
-2 -> -3
-2 -> -3
-1 -> -2

Panelists:
Red Ryu
Huggles
AeroLink_the_SoulMaster

Discuss.

 

[Dyclone]

There are a couple things I disagree with:

GaW is a little too low. What makes me say that is how he has solid counterpicks against us making the MU easily sway in his favor. FO, brinstar, I believe, RC. We don't have much to combat him when he gets close. I believe he should at least be higher than R.O.B.

The Olimar MU isn't comparable to the MK or Sheik MUs. We can outrange him easily and we have to ability to toss him into the air with getting close (the galerang when angled right and far enough and bombs). When Olipop is in the air, we can easily outrange him with Utilt and bring him back into the air with Dtilt if a landing whistle/aerial is used. Olimar's camping isn't effective as long as yellows and reds don't get attached too much(bombs explode on us). I think Nair and Bair also work well against pikmin camping. I believe Olimar should stay at upper -2.

Why was bowser +1? *Ahem*

Is this ordered?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Mistake on my part with Bowser.

For Olimar it was the fact he is quite difficult to get in on, he outcamps us even if we are smart with projectiles. Yes we can nair off pikmen, but they are still there and a problem since he is a lot faster with his pikmen camping than we are with pulling prettying much anything but quickdrawn arrows.

I usually consider it a range, which is why even though MK and Olimar are -3's they aren't as difficult, just in the same range.

G&W is because even with the CPs he has to come at us and approach, bucket isn't a get out of jail free card. So even with his good air mobility and aerials, we have answers.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

There are a few other changes/mistakes that weren't mentioned by the looks of things. I don't mean to be picky, but I may as well point them out for you.
Sheik/Zelda, Lucas and Jigglypuff were moved but not mentioned in 'changes'. Also, Sheik appears to have originally been in -1 not -2.

There should be more discussion in this thread.

 

[Capuchon]

I don't understand why G&W is -1 =/

And "-2" that means it can be done?

 

[Elessar]

Shouldn't D3 be up there with Falco as a -4 as well? D3 can totally wreck Link at least as good as falco can.

 

[zeldasmash]

Dedede does not have the spike. Nair can work against Dedede in some occasions and Bombs might provide him trouble.

 

[Elessar]

But he's a lot harder to camp than Falco, has better KO capanilities, not to mention that his grab is faster, has bigger range than Falco's, and is an infinite at any %, not limited to 50% like Falco's. I mean, his grab has the same range as Link's fsmash but it's as fast as his jab.

 

[Huggles828]

Meh, they're both realistically in the realm of an auto-loss for Link. I think Falco's worse. Link really just doesn't have ANYTHING he can do against Falco. You pull back and space, you lose to lasers and reflector. You get up close, you lose to jab and grab and ftilt (a good Falco will absolutely destroy you up close, and grab is still terrifying in the hands of a good Falco even after 50%). Falco has trouble killing you but who cares when he's gonna be racking up damage faster than I'm racking up med school debts? You need to make really hard reads and punish with things like dair for kills at 70% just to keep up with him. Falco has options that pretty much just shut down literally anything Link wants to do.

I feel like Link can at least make a match against D3 look respectable. He shouldn't be winning since D3 can just punish him so hard but at least Link can do some things. AFAIK D3 doesn't have an infinite on Link except on slopes and against walls and such.

Personally, I think D3 is easier to camp than Falco. That's not saying much though, since Falco can pretty much shut down your camping game completely with 2 moves.

 

[Fuujin]

You guys know Falco's chaingrab to spike can be DId so that you don't end up getting spiked, right?

 

[Beat11]

You guys know Falco's chaingrab to spike can be DId so that you don't end up getting spiked, right?

Thats the part where i don't understand why people keep forgetting to mention. Its not an instant death moment at all. People just either forget to do it or are too lazy to master it.
Seriously, grab does not = death. Just learn it, it a little hard but worth it. There is no excuse not to cause Link can DI like everyone else. If this was really an instant death moment, don't you think Mario or DK would die from this too? They don't because they DI.

 

[Fuujin]

Thats the part where i don't understand why people keep forgetting to mention. Its not an instant death moment at all. People just either forget to do it or are too lazy to master it.
Seriously, grab does not = death. Just learn it, it a little hard but worth it. There is no excuse not to cause Link can DI like everyone else. If this was really an instant death moment, don't you think Mario or DK would die from this too? They don't because they DI.

It's not actually that hard, after I saw the Directional Influence I was able to do it on my first try in tournament without even practicing.
You just mash like diagonally and up or something.
I would find the video but I'm not really a Link main and that duty shouldn't fall on me.
Basically if you guys are giving Link -4 with Falco based on the chain grab being auto death you're wrong.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I thought MK was a -4 and Falco was a -3, but I respect my other panelist opinions, and trust them more tbh.

 

[Huggles828]

If someone were to hack it so that Falco just didn't get a CG on Link at all, I'd still call it a -3.5. Falco just flat up ***** every option Link has imo, the CG is just a cherry on top.

So yeah, I voted -4 even knowing the CG isn't an auto kill

 

[Beat11]

Question. Why are Lucas, Ness, Mario, Pokemon Trainer and Yoshi disadvantages? I don't disagree, i just need more insight cause i don't see the reasoning behind it

 

[Huggles828]

Squirtle thrashes us as PT. We probably have an advantage against Ivy, and Charizard is more or less even. PT can play as Squirtle, and when he gets weak, switch out to Charizard and play defensively until Squirtle is healthy again. So you can't really just take an average of the 3 Pokemon, since a smart PT will switch out Pokemon as needed and will spend most of the time as Squirtle.

Yoshi has a very good inside game against us and actually wins the projectile game at very long distances. His shield sucks so we have to keep him out. But he can get in and wreck us. And Yoshi is actually pretty tough to edgeguard. Good Yoshis make it back even without a double jump (fastest airspeed in the game yo). He has an easier time edgeguarding us than we do him and has a CG to force us in an awkward position offstage. It's not a hard MU but he has a slight edge. The reason Yoshi is as low as he is and isn't a way better character is his terrible OoS game.

Mario's fireballs are actually pretty good against us. The big thing is Mario can edgeguard us well, and FLUDD can actually work on us. Like pretty much everyone else he can beat us up pretty good if he gets inside. Again, not a death MU but he has an edge.

Lucas and Ness aren't bad. We can grab release > dsmash both of them, but it's not like they're easy to grab so you have to take that with a grain of salt. Ness's aerial game is really good and makes him tricky, Lucas' as well but not quite as badly. Lucas is probably closer to even than Ness and you could make a legit argument for an even MU.

 

[Beat11]

Mario's fireballs get eaten by our Zair and bombs very easily but they need a little room to be effective. When Mario gets closer, its harder to do those moves on him. If he gets too close, i think you can shield grab him. One thing to note is that whenever he is too close and tries that fireball pressure, you can shield one and perform a shieldjump Zair to nullify the other if he goes for another one to discontinue his fireball spam. I think you can also Nair, Bair and dash attack through them as well. To me, cape is does very little to us except for when we are edgegaurded. Reflected boomerangs do almost nothing, full hopped and short hopped arrows will not hit us because of the angle and bombs can be caught on reaction if we use JC throws and standing throws. Reflected bombs usually never go far enough to even hit us. Zair and Bair can cancel out some of the FLUDD's water to avoid some of the pushback.

For Yoshi, i pretty sure that arrows can beat out eggs so i think full hopped and short hopped arrows can beat his long distance camping due to the angles of his throws. He has the WORST shield in the game so many thing we have become safe on his shield. He cannot powershield or jump out of it so his only option is to grab or release the shield. Fair, Nair, Bair, Zair, Fsmash, Dtilt, and jab are all safe on his shield even when close. Just don't finish the jab on his shield by jab cancelling and you got a good pressure tool on his shield. Not to mention that Link's bombs offer good shield pressure on opponents since it bounces off shields. Another thing to note is that most Yoshis use dodges to avoid shielding too often, which is a plus for us. It is easier for Link to punish dodges especially with bombs than it is for him to deal with powershielding. This makes Link's projectiles better for once. This is not to say that Yoshi can't approach, he can. Its just the fact that Yoshi can't rely on his shield to deal with our projectiles like everyone else does cause then he will be stuck in his terrible shield against our good shield pressure with bombs. As for edgegaurding, we shouldn't be looking to gimp Yoshi anyways unless he recovers really low. We should be looking to tack on extra damage and pressure his landing spots. As for the CG, your right. The only thing i see that makes this not too much of a threat is grabbing Link to begin with. It will be very unlikely that Link should fall into a pivot grab while grounded since he will never approach Yoshi. Yoshi's dash and standing grab are both slow so they don't do much either. He can catch Link's landing spots with this though. Also, any bomb happy Link will be difficlut to grab anyway.

I can't say much at all on PT except that we do have a solid advantage over Ivysaur. We outcamp, outspace, outzone and outrange him with little difficulty mainly because of his character structure and our Zair. I can even argue that we may be just as good at edgegaurding him as Metaknight since all we really have to do is hold the ledge and Zedgegaurd it to avoid any razor leaf he throws to get us off.

Thanks for clarifying those MUs for me. I needed a general idea of those MUs to come up with a gameplan. We need more discussion around here.

 

[SHAWDY]

I wish some of these forums were a lot more active...

 

[Illuvial]

Are you serious? Why is there such a little amount of discussion? And by little I mean ZERO

 

[zeldasmash]

-4
Falco

-3
Meta Knight, Olimar, Fox

-2.5 (if it exists)

King Dedede, Sheik

-2
Snake, Diddy Kong, Wario, Marth, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Wolf, Peach, Pit, Kirby, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus, Luigi, Toon Link, Sonic

-1
Samus, Mario, Yoshi, Ike, R.O.B., Mr. Game & Watch, Pokemon Trainer, Ness

0
Captain Falcon, Lucas

+1
Zelda, Bowser, Jigglypuff

+2
Ganondorf

just to keep discussion going if it can

 

[Illuvial]

How is Snake anything less than a -2.5 or (in my opinion) -3? Snake can camp Link very well and has some decent pokes and moves that outspace a lot of Link's moves. What in the world can Link do?

Oh and -2.5 does not exist, only solid numbers. It is part of the reason why I hate this style of scoring, but it works so whatever.

 

[Anonano]

Tbh Snake's best answer to Link close range is ftilt, and after you've used that five times to poke it kind of stales a bit. Most of Link's moves can match ftilt's range, and all Link needs is a single jab-> retreating boomerang/SH nair to reset the situation. Link can manage to keep Snake out of very close range, because that is where Snake can use moves like jab or grabs to rack up tons of damage. Link needs to get Snake away from him with nairs if in the air or getup attacks from the ground to try and get Snake back into midrange (speaking of grabs).

Link can camp Snake pretty well at midrange with zair, boomerang and then doing jab cancels, nairs, bairs, or fairs to retreat when Snake works his way forwards. Snake's good approaches are dash attack or DACUS, both of which can go under zair fairly easily but lose or tie with Link's aerials/projectiles which will push him back to a neutral position.

Snake can't edgeguard Link very well. If he predicts an airdodge he can walk off the edge and uair, which hurts badly, but otherwise Link generally has the options to force Snake off the ledge. Snake's grabs can gimp Link at midrange percents though (like 100+ if Link doesn't DI--Snake's bthrow is pretty quick, so be wary of that when rolling).

I haven't played any Snakes that camp hard but Snake likely has the advantage in long range camping. Link could possibly force approaches by FH or DJ bombthrows, dodging over the grenades, but again I've never played a particularly campy Snake so idk.

All in all Snake is definitely a -2, but there's absolutely no way he is a hard counter. That's pretty ridiculous. He can put on decent percents with close range moves and grabs but he's not got any good gimping tools and Link has tools to keep him at bay and rack up damage. None of Link's moves can outrange D3s grab and then he's got a CG straight to the ledge with good gimping tools. Sheik has good damage racking combos, moves that can send Link into gimping position and excellent gimping tools (if Link DI's Sheik's downsmash down he can zair to the edge, which is pretty cool. But if you miss then you die so it's a pretty dumb option). Illuvial, can Snake compare with those?

In terms of MUs, I feel ICs is a -3. Link can separate them with projectiles but I feel they don't do significant enough knockback to make much of a difference. ICs are fast enough to easily run in and shieldgrab Link out of most of his options, and we all know how one grab = death with ICs. But I've little experience with ICs, so this is theorycraft from me.

 

[Illuvial]

I play a fair bit of Snake (second main) and I also play a bit of Link as well. I also have a friend who mains Link and whenever we play this match-up it always seems to be decisively in my favor. But who knows, maybe he just doesn't play it correctly. He mainly stays at mid range and hail marries his projectiles and Zairs to just bait me. He usually just tries to play passive-aggressive until I end up screwing up, but I can usually outspace him wth Nades, Bair and Ftilt.

I will admit that I can have trouble edgeguarding properly however and I usually settle for simply setting up traps and awaiting his return to the stage.

Also, pivot grabbing.. Nuff said

Are there any decent videos of the match-up?

 

[Anonano]

Lol Snake's pivot grabs </3

As I'm kind of just coming into my own as a smasher I don't have tons of MU experience myself, but in terms of ledge guarding that's exactly what my opponents have done--sit on the edge and set up traps. Uair is good only as a surprise move and if he whiffs or Link doesn't die off the top then Snake is suddenly in an unfavorable position (not bad, because Link can't punish him super hard like other characters, but Link can definitely get a couple of good hits in before Snake can get grounded again).

I'm not sure about any vids that are recent of the MU. There's not too many active Link players these days. I'm hoping a couple of mine will be posted from the tourney I just went to but then I'm probably not your definition of a pro Link main lol xD.

Oh, in terms of Jiggly I'm tempted to call it a +1 or favorable 50/50 MU for Link. Jiggly can pressure Link pretty well with SH or FH aerials (fsmash, projectiles and jabs go underneath and Jiggly has enough range on her aerials to hit Link before moving into Link's hand grab hitbox where he could grab her out of the air). However, Jiggly has no answer for Link's utilt. It has better horizontal spacing than any of Jiggly's aerials, and if Jiggly airdodges through Link and lands behind him Link can answer with a dsmash, predict it and go for usmash, or retreat->pivot jab/pivot grab (although don't use dthrow on Jiggly lol). Jiggly can juggle Link off the stage, but Link can always airdodge after the first hit or two, and if he FFs he can tether back to the stage. I'm interested to see if Jiggly has an answer to this by using her own FF, but I feel like Link's FF is just too fast for Jiggly to answer.
Dair sourspout can kill Jiggly at around 80% from the ledge, and probably around 90-100% on stages with higher ceilings like PS1. Jiggly can combo Link fairly well with her aerials, but at low percents Link where Link stays grounded or can tech away from Jiggly he has enough time to answer with utilt. If Jiggly gets a fair or bair in at moderate %s and knocks Link sideways off the stage she has a very easy time gimping him though. It seems like Jiggly needs to bait an utilt out of Link and then go in for the aerials.

Also, I'm not sure how I feel about Yoshi being a -2. I feel like he's more of a -1 but idk.

Oh and also about the Falco spike discussion from a few weeks ago: I've been spiked out of a CG and recovered, so it's not an insta-death anyways. It's consistently and easily doable. You don't even have to DI back onto the stage. EDIT: Nevermind that discussion was over a year ago

Carry on people, don't mind me derping over here

 

[zeldasmash]

I have always wondered how the Falcon matchup will play out like. Link has the projectiles and range to keep himself away, while Falcon has the mobility.....

 

[Illuvial]

Snake can't really gimp Link like Sheik can. And by "can't really" I mean he can't. If Link has a bomb in his hands off stage all Snake can do to edgeguard is SH off the ledge and throw a grenade up and depending on where Link is coming from Snake can either Dair or Uair. Regardless, it is way to risky and ineffective to really be decent edge guarding.

Ironically however, that is not a bad thing since Snake can just set up Nades and C4 which will limit Link's options for getting stage control back (or even getting kn the stage tbh). Link off stage is not exactly a favorable position for Link players, and because of his already poor off stage options Snake can just pressure with projectiles and seriously ruin Link's chance of successfully recovering.

Also, on stage if Snake can actually get a grab he can deal insane amounts of damage with tech chasing. Sure the same could be said for the entire cast, but Link is one of the few characters I feel can't get out of range very well when Snake can get a tech chase going. Zair is probably one of his best options when Snake misreads a tech chase, but it is expected and if it whiffs you are either dead or heavily punished. He has Bair and Fair, but Snake can outrange those with Ftilt or Dash attacks by just backing up a bit.

Oh and I agree with your Jiggs match-up evaluation, but alas I can't really add to it since I have never played a Jiggs player. So I am just theory crafting.

 

[Anonano]

Totally agree with you about the edge game there and about grabs. I disagree about zair--how the heck is he going to get a zair off out of a tech chase? I feel like Link's only reliable option is to outread the Snake player and make him whiff. His semi-reliable option is a dsmash if he forces a whiff out of Snake, and his unreliable options (that make you look pro if you pull them off) are things like SH aerials, jabs, or grabs/pivot grabs of his own. Snake can shield any of those and punish accordingly though.
If Link whiffs a grab Snake should walk forward and fsmash like a boss. Not sure if there's actually enough time to pull it off, but it would be so pro.

Zair seems to be an option that implies Link rolled correctly and reset spacing back to mid-range. I can't see a good Link player ever trying to pull off a zair directly out of a tech chase.

 

[Illuvial]

No, there is not enough to pull off a Fsmash half of the time, but I have done it once or twice and MAN is it satisfying!

And what I meant by Zair being an option is that if Snake whiffs the tech chase that is one of Link's safest options. I fixed that in my OP, thanks for pointing out the poor wording.

 

[Illuvial]

Would anyone care to discuss the Kirby match-up?

 

[Anonano]

I've got virtually no MU experience with Kirby, but I know that his bair and fsmash are terrific options against Link. Fsmash covers a lot of the space that Link likes to leave open to protect himself. I believe that Kirby can pretty safely fsmash Link after any of Link's aerials if Kirby shields them. Both fsmash and bair can gimp if not DI'ed and they come out extremely fast, meaning Kirby will get a lot of gimps from them.

Kirby's throw combos can rack on 30-50% I believe? If Kirby SH's Link's attacks he's got a good chance of landing a sideB.

Link has pretty good zoning tools in fair and utilt/usmash though. Kirby can FF through an utilt which gives him an advantage with his superior up-close game but Link has options to escape and/or punish Kirby (like SHFF nair, jab cancels)

I think Kirby is a hard -2.

g2g but will finish later

 

[Illuvial]

Yes, Kirby's throw combos can garner up to 50%, and they are quite easy to do at low percents, especially on a larger character like Link.

Zair is also rendered useless by Kirby's size, and Boomerang is also fairly useless since all it will do is bring Kirby closer to Link most of the time, which is where Link loses this match-up most.

Bair and Fair also REALLY screw Link over with how well they lead into more combos, and when Link is off the edge these moves WILL gimp Link without any trouble whatsoever. Off stage Link really can't do anything against Kirby, so if Kirby gets the knock-off then Link may as well kiss his stock goodbye.

However, Arrows and Uair will do quite well against Kirby when Link is edgeguarding, so if Link can get a decent knock off that doesn't put Kirby too high then he can possibly do some gimping and take a stock with relative ease, especially since Zair is actually useful when edgeguarding Kirby.

Also, I have noticed that a Link with great DI is a REAL pain to kill as Kirby, where as Link can kill more effectively and therefore has a chance if he gets the first stock. Sadly, having stock advantage and playing hardcore keep away is not going to work well on most stages, so a good stage (Lylat, FD, Frigate Orpheon, Halberd) and an early lead are imperative if Link wants a chance at winning.

I agree with -2, and I score it a 35-65