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Link counterpick to Peach

spec

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Dec 14, 2013
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I've heard that Link is a strong counterpick to Peach, as well as YL who is even brought up by top players such as Axe in this matchup.

What is the reason behind this? I would assume that Peach has trouble getting around Link's projectiles which eliminates her turnip option and then Link also outspaces her at close range with his sword, I can't get discern anything clear on this though.

Anyone care to elaborate?
 
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Link is not a straight out counter to peach, but he can handle her quite well. You can lightshield her dsmash to get a free grab as a punish, outcamp her, recover through her edgeguard and you got great finishers for killing upwards. Links projectile catch is actually quite good and he also is a very good thrower, meaning you can use peachs turnips against her better than most other characters. He also is a great juggler, something peach might have great trouble with.

The matchup is a bit slow(correction: very slow), you will find yourself throwing a lot of projectiles, your goal should be to always be out of harms way but never let peach get a turnip, peach will need to take a risk at some point to get in on you and this is when you get your chances to land finishers.
 

MR_Scribble

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Whats the prefered stage counterpick for Peach as Link?
If u want to play the projectile game i'd assume FD or maybe BF, Dreamland seems good for spamming projectiles but seems like killing her would be a pain
I guess u could approach and fight head on Story or Fountain?
I guess stadium would be the best if they havent banned it
 
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SAUS

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I'd also like to add that Young Link is considered better against Peach than Link. Young Link does the same thing as Link in the matchup, but Young Link can move faster. It allows him to stay out of reach better and his killing power is still good.

The way I see it, Young Link is better in the matchups that Link is good in, but worse in the ones that Link is bad in (not 100% true, but a good general rule).
 

SAUS

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PS, FoD, or YS for me.
I feel like FoD is not a good stage for this matchup. The kill boxes are large, so she doesn't die extra easily (like on yoshi's), and, since the stage is small, she can pressure more. I honestly wouldn't choose yoshi's story if it didn't have the smaller kill zone for this matchup.

I think, ultimately, battlefield and FoD are the only stages I don't really want to be on against Peach (and I don't find either of them to be particularly bad, just not really good).
 

HarryTheChin

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FD, PS, and yoshi's is the way to go if you want the most bang for your buck in cp'ing. Not sure about order. Battlefield of course is probably the most neutral (so freaking hard to hook-shot safely on this stage) but Peaches won't be able to hug the wall up while recovering/using their up-b and even that rising side b shenanigans.

Although Dreamland gives you a lot of room to run around and spam projectiles Peach will never die. NEVER.
 

Corona

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I'd also like to add that Young Link is considered better against Peach than Link. Young Link does the same thing as Link in the matchup, but Young Link can move faster. It allows him to stay out of reach better and his killing power is still good.

The way I see it, Young Link is better in the matchups that Link is good in, but worse in the ones that Link is bad in (not 100% true, but a good general rule).
That right there is very, very interesting to hear you say. What matchups (out of the usual top characters) would you say Link is better that Y. Link in? I'd say Y. Link is better in the Fox (definitely), Sheik, and Falcon matchups than Link. Falco is a wash, as is Ice Climbers. Link over Y. Link verse Marth. Just my thoughts.
 

SAUS

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That right there is very, very interesting to hear you say. What matchups (out of the usual top characters) would you say Link is better that Y. Link in? I'd say Y. Link is better in the Fox (definitely), Sheik, and Falcon matchups than Link. Falco is a wash, as is Ice Climbers. Link over Y. Link verse Marth. Just my thoughts.
Why do you say Young Link is better in those matchups?

One main thing to remember is that Link is a little bit like Ganon in that his punishes are typically much better than his opponent's. I think learning how to properly punish with Link is very important and will show drastic improvement. Young Link will win in the neutral game more often, but his punishes are much more limited (outside of gimps, but Link can gimp as well).

I think Link is better against Fox, Shiek, and Captain Falcon than Young Link. His punishes on them are just so much better. I think he is also better against Falco and also that the matchup isn't that bad.
 

Thor

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My take: I think part of the reason Link does so good in this MU is that he gets to mess up Peach's float practically for free, with boomerang being a headache for her while we also have a great fullhop nair mid-float (gutsy), a bomb from a good angle and fullhop, or a shorthop uair/bomb straight up underneath her to mess up her landings. At least, as someone who also plays a bit of Falco (rarely as of now), being able to just throw the rang and hit her out of float is incredibly satisfying and makes it feel much easier to rush in and apply pressure (or sit back and throw more stuff) since she'll get far less float-cancelled aerials on my shield. I also think that Link and YL actually do about the same here - they each limit Peach's mobility, but fighting Peach head-on doesn't feel too scary to me (this is most likely the main reason why I think this). If YL can't shieldgrab dsmash then I definitely think Link does way better, but he probably can and I just don't know YL well. I do like up+B OoS as a punish to Peach (most notable when she takes you to FoD, which will likely happen in a Bo5 if she wins on DL and DSR is in play), and it can also edgeguard parasol (I think this is real but hard to do - if she can always avoid this, then then reason goes away, but I think a perfectly spaced/timed up+b is unavoidable, and all she can do is mix up fall speeds to try to mess up your timing). Because of the killzones on FoD and Link's up+b OoS being so much stronger than YL, PLUS the stage is kind of small so it's not like YL has that many places to run anyway, I would guess that even if YL does better than Link against Peach in general, they each do about as well (or Link does better) at least on Fountain. As a side note, the extra weight of Link also means he survives fthrow and fair longer against Peach - not to Captain Falcon levels, but better than YL for sure, and that seems relevant to me as well.

I know for me this is stage choice best to worst, but not everyone probably. I consider not only the Peach MU, but also the chances of playing not-Peach on the stage, based on strong stages for other characters:

- PS: Lots of space to camp Peach, and small blastzones for your two best KO moves, while medium blastzones give you decent survivability, but don't remove spin attack KOs from the equation. [pocket spacie risk, but I don't think Fox actually does that well relative to other stages vs Link here, and you have the platforms to help deal with Falco lasers].

- FD: Juggles all day, rather easy recovery, kill moves off all sides seem fine (though dair is still best). (how does she land from uair strings here...? Besides me screwing up of course.) [pocket Falco/Sheik risk, though I think Fox isn't much of a problem here, relative to other stages - and if you can cope with needles and lasers really well (something I'm working on), the pocket X risk seems much less.]

- YS/BF: Good neutral stage in general, got platforms for juggles and maybe early KOs off the top (But she likely doesn't get those unless you get usmashed), can also KO off the side. (for me, the difference is surprisingly negligible. BF is basically just a bigger Yoshi's - I don't usually have issues tethering, and if the Peach has me feeling cramped and wanting platforms (never happened before) I'll take her to BF over YS if I can't go PS and want platforms, but otherwise it's killzones that generally make the difference here - however, I also just like BF in general and for spacies, so the random pocket spacie feels less problematic here [even though most pocket spacies who main Peach aren't usually that dangerous] so it's about a wash to me - very slight edge to YS only because killzones and I don't mind YS for spacies, but if you hate YS for spacies and want room, BF is a much safer CP in my opinion.)

- DL: You live forever, so does she. Lots of room to roam and chuck stuff. If YL does better than Link in this MU on any stage, it's almost certainly this one, since his speed could make him ever harder to chase down (though Link still lives longer than YL here). (generally her counterpick, though if you fear the random pocket spacie, taking her here will usually ensure she doesn't bring it out for the game - Jiggs may come out, but that doesn't bother me much... however if she loses here, she might bring the spacie out game 2 or 3, so...) [might also be pocket Sheik risk but I like DL over FoD against Sheik which is why I ban FoD instead].

- FoD [I ban this stage in Bo3]: Small horizontal but high killzones means spin attack by the edge seems a better (or equally good relative to dair) KO move. Nerfing your best KO move but not hers (fair/fthrow) is not the greatest idea, and you have less space to pressure. YS seems better in almost every sense [since Randall will likely aid your recovery far more than hers, that's just an extra bonus to YS]. [also feels like a pocket Sheik risk]

I generally agree with SAUS about Link compared to YL in top tier MUs - I might say more on that later (or not).
 

Corona

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Why do you say Young Link is better in those matchups?

One main thing to remember is that Link is a little bit like Ganon in that his punishes are typically much better than his opponent's. I think learning how to properly punish with Link is very important and will show drastic improvement. Young Link will win in the neutral game more often, but his punishes are much more limited (outside of gimps, but Link can gimp as well).

I think Link is better against Fox, Shiek, and Captain Falcon than Young Link. His punishes on them are just so much better. I think he is also better against Falco and also that the matchup isn't that bad.
I agree with Link's punishes being stronger than Y. Links, but Link either gets punished HARDER in those matchups and/or is EASIER to punish. In the Fox and Sheik matchup, it is BOTH. If you don't get hit, Link wins this argument. But, all things being even, Fox's waveshine on Link (Y.Link tumbles out, remember) and Link's slower movement (easier for Sheik to grab) and overall larger size makes these "bread and butter" tactics of these characters that much easier to do. Just my opinion, I would love to be wrong here, really.
 
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EddyBearr

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Why do you say Young Link is better in those matchups?

One main thing to remember is that Link is a little bit like Ganon in that his punishes are typically much better than his opponent's. I think learning how to properly punish with Link is very important and will show drastic improvement. Young Link will win in the neutral game more often, but his punishes are much more limited (outside of gimps, but Link can gimp as well).

I think Link is better against Fox, Shiek, and Captain Falcon than Young Link. His punishes on them are just so much better. I think he is also better against Falco and also that the matchup isn't that bad.
Fox: Young Link > Link: They've got pretty comparable combo/punish games, albeit in slightly different ways, but Young Link doesn't get waveshined.
Falco: Young Link < Link: It's such a bad matchup for Young Link
Sheik: Young Link > Link. The chain-grab is way less devastating and the extra mobility really comes in handy here.
Marth: Young Link < Link: Mostly boils down to Link's extra range.
C. Falcon: No clue. It's not too bad for Young Link.
 

HarryTheChin

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vs. Floaties i feel it can go either way.
vs. Spacies/heavier characters it leans more towards Link IMO. since he can combo the **** out of them.
 

EddyBearr

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vs. Floaties i feel it can go either way.
vs. Spacies/heavier characters it leans more towards Link IMO. since he can combo the **** out of them.
So can Young Link. Lol. The only difference is that Young Link is a tad faster and quite a bit more mobile. If a Young Link gets a Sheik or C.Falc into a juggle situation, it's 50%+ into edgeguard np. I think Link gets an edge over Young Link vs Marth and Falco due to range/weight, but not so much combo game.
 
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SAUS

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Some pretty cool discussion here. I wish I could add more and better prove my ideas, but then I think about them and know that they could easily be wrong. There is so little to go by concerning Link and Young Link (especially Link lol). They just aren't played very much in tournaments.

I still think Link vs Shiek is blown up to be some impossible matchup when it really isn't. Link can CC all of her aerials until quite high percents and he can keep his distance well enough. Of course the chain grab is bad, but Link has brutal juggling combos on her that easily deal as much damage.

I am on the fence with Captain Falcon, but right now, I'm finding it to be not so bad. I don't know what grab combos he has on Young Link, but on Link, it gets really rough around the 80%-110% range where he can land knees or up-air chains off of grabs. I find, though, that he is easy to just toss around once you've got him. His tech is slow, so tech chasing becomes easier and allows for brutal combos (I'm not sure what Young Link gets off of grabs...). Edge-guarding is typically pretty easy. As long as you punish really hard and don't do mindless stupid stuff (Falcon eats you for breakfast if you do), this matchup doesn't feel so bad.

For Falco, I feel like this matchup is also exaggerated into being impossible. I think it just comes down to really smart play. A few mis-steps and you will probably lose a stock. At the same time, though, it's like that for Falco as well. The main thing is OoS power disparity (Link basically can't shield but still has to respect Falco's shield) and Falco's super easy combo starters (land a random shine at any percent -> combo).

Fox. I don't really know what to say about Young Link in this matchup. I feel like Fox can stay on top of him very well, so running away and range spamming won't be THAT good compared to Link's. Using the speed to win smaller engagements like spacing your fair or wavedash away and down smash might be better than I think, but I'm uncertain. Link has brutal punishes on him and I don't think Young Link's combos can compare. Young Links juggling ability is definitely good (up-airs and bombs mostly), but Link has that as well. On top of that, though, Link can combo down smashes, dash attacks, and up-airs. All of the moves can also be combod into off of a grab at some point in the range of 18%-120% and then you can just up-b them off a grab after that.
 

EddyBearr

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You are partially correct in that Young Link has trouble camping Fox, which is why Young Link isn't supposed to camp him.
Fox:
--Neutral Game:
----Slightly in Young Link's favor. Young Link has better mobility and slightly better projectiles. He has a much easier time poking, pestering, and evading fox, and has an easier time getting both projectile hits and projectile hit-confirms. With that said, Link is much more threatening on his own with extra range.
--Combos & Kills:
----I think it's slightly in Link's favor. Link has slightly stronger combos, and combos directly into his kill moves. Young Link, however, has better edgeguarding and combos into edgeguarding set-ups. Where Link might reach with dash attack into an up-B kill, Young Link will reach with Dash Attack into a D-Smash/nair/whatever edgeguard. Young Link can also use his mobility to reach further (easier time "finishing" opponents with good DI, can combo across the stage), but has the risk of Amsah techs.
--Recovering against Fox:
----Young Link's slight favor, no disagreements allowed.
--Getting Combod by or killed by Fox:
----Slight Link's favor. Link is easier to combo at mid-high/high-percents due to extra weight holding him back, and is a larger target, but has a great crouch cancel (D-Smash into combos ftw). Young Link dies significantly earlier.

The trump card: Shine. Young Link is knocked down by shine. So, if Fox gets a drill on Young Link, he'll get his ~8% into a shine into a tech chase (which can be devastating, of course.) Link, by stark contrast, is among the easiest characters to waveshine in the game. Link can be infinitely waveshined (to 999% if they want). So, if Fox gets a drill on Link, he'll get his 8% into 15% from..say.. 3 shines, into upthing, into aerial(s).

If I had to play against a fox that doesn't respect the up-B and is sub-par at Waveshining, I'd choose Link, but when they're pretty technical and understand the matchup, I'd choose Young Link.

For Falcon, Young Link has an easier tech-chase due to dash speed, pretty much the same getting-combo'd problems (it might be a tad harder to combo Young Link based on what people have complained to me about, but I doubt this is true..just matchup knowledge/feel). Young Link has great/easy edgeguards on Falcon thanks to D-Smash and it's disgusting trajectory. I'd assume Link has stronger combos, and his extra range probably comes greatly in handy against Falcon.

For Sheik, it's all about the mobility, slightly-better projectiles, and the chain-grab. Young Link combos Sheik probably about the same (Sheik is the perfect weight/fall-speed for Young Link's combos and for barely reaching extenders or finishers with his extra mobility) and gets chain-grabbed to a much lower percent. Sheik pretty much 0-Death's Link if the Sheik wants, but requires at least 2 interactions (lol..) to defeat Young Link. Tbh, the juggle game from either Link doesn't out-do Sheik's chain-grabs [because of the tilt-aerial finisher after chaingrabs adding another 25%].
 
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SAUS

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What would you say makes young link's recovery better against fox than link's? Link has a longer hookshot, bomb jump, and doesn't get hit as far until higher percents due to more weight (though it's easier to get him to higher percents, so that probably doesn't matter).

The infinite waveshine is not an issue imo. Fox can do that to marth and probably peach - probably even other strong characters - but it does not happen. SDI and the absurd tech skill requirements make it basically not guaranteed. Infinite drill shine can also be messed up with SDI.

Drill shine also is not guaranteed. I am looking into a potentially super awesome option select against Foxes where you basically hold down on the C-stick and then always try to SDI out of drill. This way, they can't try to mix you up with dair/nair since you will ASDI the nair down and SDI the drill sideways (assuming you don't mess up the timing).

Shiek might be better for Young Link than for Link. I really can't say. However, I still feel like people think the matchup is a lot worse than it actualy is (for Link at least).
 

EddyBearr

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What would you say makes young link's recovery better against fox than link's? Link has a longer hookshot, bomb jump, and doesn't get hit as far until higher percents due to more weight (though it's easier to get him to higher percents, so that probably doesn't matter).

The infinite waveshine is not an issue imo. Fox can do that to marth and probably peach - probably even other strong characters - but it does not happen. SDI and the absurd tech skill requirements make it basically not guaranteed. Infinite drill shine can also be messed up with SDI.

Drill shine also is not guaranteed. I am looking into a potentially super awesome option select against Foxes where you basically hold down on the C-stick and then always try to SDI out of drill. This way, they can't try to mix you up with dair/nair since you will ASDI the nair down and SDI the drill sideways (assuming you don't mess up the timing).

Shiek might be better for Young Link than for Link. I really can't say. However, I still feel like people think the matchup is a lot worse than it actualy is (for Link at least).
Slightly higher midair jump, he has the wall jump and the invincibility it entails (especially obvious when watching Axe recover. Gets right up to stage while invincible and applying aerial pressure.) Most serious Young Links have v 0 or 0.1, so the tether cancel recovery helps. And though this is minute, using Young Link's bomb to get up-B back is better for SDI'ing in recovery. Due to more options, Young Link has a much easier time reacting to opponents trying to interrupt his recovery, etc.

Just tested the recoveries and Link's tether is naturally about 2 Link-Bodies further than Young Links. However, when taking into consideration the slight double jump boost Young Link has, it wears it down to about 1 link-body further of a tether. It ends up being 6 Link bodies + Link's DJ for Link, and 5 Link Bodies + Link's DJ for Young Link. Obviously this could be tested in more detail. Young Link doesn't have an advantage in total distance (assuming Link gets his bomb jump and Young Link gets his tether cancel) (though it's quite close), but he's better at actually making it back to the stage safely.

The infinite waveshine is not an issue, that's true, but I wasn't suggesting Link was worse in the matchup due to an infinite -- it was meant to exemplify waveshine into followups is a huge issue for Link that Young Link doesn't really face. Just as Link can SDI out of drill to avoid the shine, so can Young Link (probably easier due to smaller hurtbox). Basically, if you assume equal skill around the board, then the total % taken of a Fox successfully getting a drill hit, then Link will take much more than Young Link will, even though at times Young Link will be tech-chased correctly and both will SDI drill at times.
 
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