RIDLEY is too SMALL
Smash Journeyman
Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the current stagelist in PM. For a long time, I've been wanting an optimized, balanced, and standardized stagelist, and after TKBreezy and SOJ released their new Xanadu stagelist, I started trying to figure out what would be needed in order to create the most fair stagelist possible.
I should begin by saying that I definitely think that there are a number of problems with the current widely-used stagelist (row 1 neutrals and row 2 counterpicks) such as:
- There are 2 small starters (YS & FoD), 2 medium starters (BF & SV), 2 medium-long starters (PS2 & FD), and 1 large starter (DL), which gives an advantage to characters that want to be on a medium stage or a long stage.
- No one really agrees upon what counterpicks should be used and which should be banned. Some tournaments have like 7, and some have like 3. In general, there is no agreed-upon stagelist that is optimally balanced, so any stagelist modifications used at a given tournament can significantly help or harm a character's chances of winning.
- If you look at ALL of the stages that are considered to have tournament potential (there are at least 18), ONLY 4 of them are small stages. There are a substantially higher number of long, wide stages available to choose from, and most stagelists unsurprisingly have a slightly higher number of medium stages and long stages.
One of the biggest difficulties with creating a truly balanced stagelist originates from the fact that Battlefield and Smashville really deserve to be neutral starters, but both are the very definition of a medium-sized stage. This means that any starter list that almost always results in BF, SV, and PS2 gives privilege to characters who prefer medium-sized stages. This problem exists with a 3-stage, 5-stage, or 7-stage starter list as long as they contain the three most popular neutrals (BF, SV, and PS2). If BF and SV are to remain as neutral starters (and I think they should), then there would need to be an equal amount of small neutral starters and an equal amount of large neutral starters to even the scales. Therefore, in order to keep both BF and SV as neutral starters and have a truly balanced and fair starter list, there would need to be a minimum of 9 neutrals (3 small, 3 medium, 3 long/large). Likewise, the counterpicks should also maintain this balance. I should clarify that there are no true "neutral" stages because every stage benefits some characters and makes it harder for others.
Of course, there are a number of things to take into account when considering balancing the stagelist, such as blast zone distance, ceiling height, platform arrangement, presence/absence of significant walls, and the size of the actual solid part of the stage itself. There needs to be variety in all of these aspects across the stagelist in order to prevent things like Fox's Up Smash killing at low% on too many stages due to a high number of low-ceiling stages, or characters with wall jumps having barely any access to stages with useful walls and therefore not being able to utilize part of their moveset.
Data on all of these stage factors can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...VLQlp3MmZNZ1J0c1pBVTI2Mnc&usp=drive_web#gid=8
and here: http://i.imgur.com/klfXRKd.png
Taking all of these stage characteristics into consideration, I attempted to create my own stagelist with the goal of eventually figuring out the most balanced stagelist possible. Here is my best attempt so far:
Starters:
Yoshi's Story - Small stage - Very close blast zones - Very low ceiling - 3 platforms - Significant Walls
Warioware - Small stage - Very close blast zones - Very low ceiling - 4 platforms - Significant Walls
Green Hill Zone - Small stage - Close blast zones - High ceiling - 1 swinging platform - Significant Walls
Battlefield - Medium stage - Far blast zones - High ceiling - 3 platforms
Smashville - Medium stage - Average blast zones - Average ceiling - 1 moving platform
Norfair 3.5 - Medium stage - Very far blast zones (?) - Very high ceiling (?) - 2 transforming platforms
Stadium 2 - Long stage - Far blast zones - Very low ceiling - 2 platforms
Distant Planet - Long stage - Very close blast zones - Average ceiling - 4 platforms - Significant Walls
Dreamland - Large stage - Very far blast zones - Very high ceiling - 3 platforms
Counterpicks:
1. Fountain of Dreams - Small stage - Close blast zones - High ceiling - ~3 moving platforms - Significant Walls
2. Skyworld - Medium stage - Very far blast zones - High ceiling - 3 platforms
3. Final Destination - Long stage - Far blast zones - Low ceiling - 0 platforms - Significant Walls
With this stagelist, there would be an equal number of small, medium, and long/large stages. The selection of stages (both the starters by themselves and the starters + the counterpicks) have a VERY balanced variety of blast zone distances and ceiling heights. There would also be a wide variety of platform arrangements. Another more subtle benefit of this stagelist is that it would actually give floaties decent counterpick options, which many other stagelists lack.
This is the most fair stagelist I could create so far, but I am of course not asserting that it is the best possible stagelist, or even that it is better than other stagelists. Rather, I would hope that this thread can be a group endeavor to create the most balanced PM stagelist we can.
Please feel free to share what you think works and what doesn't work in my proposed stagelist, as well as your thoughts on how to create a truly balanced stagelist in general. Also feel free to post your own balanced stagelists with your reasoning on why they are balanced.
I should begin by saying that I definitely think that there are a number of problems with the current widely-used stagelist (row 1 neutrals and row 2 counterpicks) such as:
- There are 2 small starters (YS & FoD), 2 medium starters (BF & SV), 2 medium-long starters (PS2 & FD), and 1 large starter (DL), which gives an advantage to characters that want to be on a medium stage or a long stage.
- No one really agrees upon what counterpicks should be used and which should be banned. Some tournaments have like 7, and some have like 3. In general, there is no agreed-upon stagelist that is optimally balanced, so any stagelist modifications used at a given tournament can significantly help or harm a character's chances of winning.
- If you look at ALL of the stages that are considered to have tournament potential (there are at least 18), ONLY 4 of them are small stages. There are a substantially higher number of long, wide stages available to choose from, and most stagelists unsurprisingly have a slightly higher number of medium stages and long stages.
One of the biggest difficulties with creating a truly balanced stagelist originates from the fact that Battlefield and Smashville really deserve to be neutral starters, but both are the very definition of a medium-sized stage. This means that any starter list that almost always results in BF, SV, and PS2 gives privilege to characters who prefer medium-sized stages. This problem exists with a 3-stage, 5-stage, or 7-stage starter list as long as they contain the three most popular neutrals (BF, SV, and PS2). If BF and SV are to remain as neutral starters (and I think they should), then there would need to be an equal amount of small neutral starters and an equal amount of large neutral starters to even the scales. Therefore, in order to keep both BF and SV as neutral starters and have a truly balanced and fair starter list, there would need to be a minimum of 9 neutrals (3 small, 3 medium, 3 long/large). Likewise, the counterpicks should also maintain this balance. I should clarify that there are no true "neutral" stages because every stage benefits some characters and makes it harder for others.
Of course, there are a number of things to take into account when considering balancing the stagelist, such as blast zone distance, ceiling height, platform arrangement, presence/absence of significant walls, and the size of the actual solid part of the stage itself. There needs to be variety in all of these aspects across the stagelist in order to prevent things like Fox's Up Smash killing at low% on too many stages due to a high number of low-ceiling stages, or characters with wall jumps having barely any access to stages with useful walls and therefore not being able to utilize part of their moveset.
Data on all of these stage factors can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...VLQlp3MmZNZ1J0c1pBVTI2Mnc&usp=drive_web#gid=8
and here: http://i.imgur.com/klfXRKd.png
Taking all of these stage characteristics into consideration, I attempted to create my own stagelist with the goal of eventually figuring out the most balanced stagelist possible. Here is my best attempt so far:
Starters:
Yoshi's Story - Small stage - Very close blast zones - Very low ceiling - 3 platforms - Significant Walls
Warioware - Small stage - Very close blast zones - Very low ceiling - 4 platforms - Significant Walls
Green Hill Zone - Small stage - Close blast zones - High ceiling - 1 swinging platform - Significant Walls
Battlefield - Medium stage - Far blast zones - High ceiling - 3 platforms
Smashville - Medium stage - Average blast zones - Average ceiling - 1 moving platform
Norfair 3.5 - Medium stage - Very far blast zones (?) - Very high ceiling (?) - 2 transforming platforms
Stadium 2 - Long stage - Far blast zones - Very low ceiling - 2 platforms
Distant Planet - Long stage - Very close blast zones - Average ceiling - 4 platforms - Significant Walls
Dreamland - Large stage - Very far blast zones - Very high ceiling - 3 platforms
Counterpicks:
1. Fountain of Dreams - Small stage - Close blast zones - High ceiling - ~3 moving platforms - Significant Walls
2. Skyworld - Medium stage - Very far blast zones - High ceiling - 3 platforms
3. Final Destination - Long stage - Far blast zones - Low ceiling - 0 platforms - Significant Walls
With this stagelist, there would be an equal number of small, medium, and long/large stages. The selection of stages (both the starters by themselves and the starters + the counterpicks) have a VERY balanced variety of blast zone distances and ceiling heights. There would also be a wide variety of platform arrangements. Another more subtle benefit of this stagelist is that it would actually give floaties decent counterpick options, which many other stagelists lack.
This is the most fair stagelist I could create so far, but I am of course not asserting that it is the best possible stagelist, or even that it is better than other stagelists. Rather, I would hope that this thread can be a group endeavor to create the most balanced PM stagelist we can.
Please feel free to share what you think works and what doesn't work in my proposed stagelist, as well as your thoughts on how to create a truly balanced stagelist in general. Also feel free to post your own balanced stagelists with your reasoning on why they are balanced.
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