Smash 3DS Ledge grabbing (or rather, the lack thereof)

[Illuvial]

Is anyone else a little disappointed at the fact that you can no longer ledgehog opponents as effectively as you could in past Smash games? The fact that the recovery opponent kicks you off of the ledge is just... Silly... I dunno, edge guarding and off stage fighting has always been one of my favorite things with Smash, and considering how great most character's recoveries are an considering how much harder it will be to edge/ledgeguard, it just kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe that's just me though

 

[Xermo]

Edgeguarding still exists though. You simply get a free ride from opponents trying to take the easy way by snagging the ledge.

I mean, god forbid you have to commit to offstage edgeguarding, right?

 

[TimeSmash]

For reference, here's an article about ledge trumping.

http://smashboards.com/threads/edge...ussion-follow-ups.367722/page-3#post-17595345

It's far from the worst thing, you just have to commit a little more.

 

[LordVacation]

Maybe I'm a pleb but I hate seeing edgehogging.
Guarding is cool but hanging on so you can't grab on? x_x

 

[Spirst]

I actually think it'll encourage more interesting play. Grabbing the ledge worked yeah, but it was so monotonous to see and do. With this new mechanic, you have to try harder to really keep the opponent offstage and be a lot smarter about it.

 

[Senario]

It eliminates the disadvantage to being the player sent off the stage imo. You now have no downside for being off the stage as you do have crazy recovery paired with the new ledge. If new ledge was like melee or recovery was toned down it would be fine. But having both the new ledge and crazy recovery is something I can see as being problematic.

Chasing people off is no longer as hype, it isn't hard to do and there is little risk from you dying for going too deep. It is like how 64 zero to death combos aren't hype because they happen all the time and are fairly easy. There should be a risk for being off the stage and a risk for chasing somebody far out off the stage to gimp them.

 

[HeavyLobster]

It eliminates the disadvantage to being the player sent off the stage imo. You now have no downside for being off the stage as you do have crazy recovery paired with the new ledge. If new ledge was like melee or recovery was toned down it would be fine. But having both the new ledge and crazy recovery is something I can see as being problematic.

Chasing people off is no longer as hype, it isn't hard to do and there is little risk from you dying for going too deep. It is like how 64 zero to death combos aren't hype because they happen all the time and are fairly easy. There should be a risk for being off the stage and a risk for chasing somebody far out off the stage to gimp them.

It definitely doesn't eliminate the disadvantage of being offstage, though that risk is certainly reduced compared to Melee. Characters seem to have improved offensive tools to cover their opponent's options. I've only really played the 5 character demo, and even that is full of effective moves at harassing your opponent when they're in a disadvantageous position, be it offstage or in the air. For example, Villager can use his slingshot to cut off an opponent's high recovery, then cut them off from sweetspotting the ledge with a bowling ball, which usually forces them to use their Up-B to try to land on stage, which is very punishable. It may be generally easier to avoid dying when sent offstage, but at best you'll be eating a good amount of damage against anyone good, and the cost when you do get gimped early is greater because each stock is harder to take and thus that much more valuable.

 

[Gameboi834]

That whole "rolling up when you're invincible" thing is the least exciting way to get a kill ever. Anyone can do that, not everyone can find a way to cut off an opponent's recovery and then find a way back onto the stage.

 

[Renji64]

Is anyone else a little disappointed at the fact that you can no longer ledgehog opponents as effectively as you could in past Smash games? The fact that the recovery opponent kicks you off of the ledge is just... Silly... I dunno, edge guarding and off stage fighting has always been one of my favorite things with Smash, and considering how great most character's recoveries are an considering how much harder it will be to edge/ledgeguard, it just kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe that's just me though

Yeah i did it feels like you can't punish people for making mistakes that much anymore. You just pop off the ledge and their really good recoveries they live for a long time time. It also felt good making it back when someone tried to edgehog you and you some how found a way to recover.

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

I hear Bowser can land a free back air if he grabs a ledge you are on, since you get pushed off with a fixed arch after.

 

[SmashBro99]

Hogging was a lame mechanic, go learn how to actually get kills

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

Glad it's gone. Glad that people aren't able to just knock someone off the edge and then hog it.

 

[Mysteltainn]

No offence to those who dislike this new mechanic, but I think it's important to see this from the perspectives of people who mained characters who constantly got screwed over by the old mechanics. Characters like Ness, Lucas, Olimar and even Link and a lot more characters were severely limited once kicked off the stage, and in some cases, would die no matter what they did to try and get back. Mind you Olimar made up for this by being a complete nightmare when he was on the stage, but there are times when deaths simply shouldn't have happened and they did simply because the enemy abused lame invincibility frames to screw you over instead of actually making good plays to kill you.

In Smash 4, I feel that yes, there is a bit less risk to going off the stage due to all-around enhanced recoveries and the lack of hogging, but in turn, people are going to have to actually have a strategy for attacking or making a good play to get rid of whoever is away, and may be punished themselves for not playing it safe and staying on the stage when the person off-stage tries to get back. For example, someone tries to hog Ness from coming back to the stage, but instead of Ness dying because the enemy has invincibility frames, his recovery instead blasts them into the stage and bounces them downward to their doom.

 

[Backgammon]

Very glad it's gone. I was fed up of characters being able to just stay there on the ledge and essentially do nothing for a free kill.

 

[graveLotus]

I think it's definitely better for the game as a whole. Gives characters with sub-par recovery a second chance.

 

[Chauzu]

And with custom moves (maybe) allowed more characters will have decent recoveries.

 

[DunnoBro]

I had no problem with the way things were, and imo most people who thought it was a problem likely had issues adapting/accepting it. But the way things are now is fine, edgeguarding is still strong and anything that promotes more reckless offstage fun without being too floaty is cool in my book.

 

[Raijinken]

It is my single favorite change to this game (besides the roster). It adds depth to the edge game. Now you not only have to decide between letting them knock you off or timing your own to knock them off, you have to know the knock-off angle and reaction windows and can use those to punish hogging or being hogged, if you have sufficient knowledge of the mechanic and characters involved. No more "CFalc is far enough, with this he's dead. *grabs*" That combined with fastfalls canceling on attack makes offstage more necessary, more entertaining (now you can have a reversal of disadvantage if someone plays the edge recovery well), and more fun than just watching someone fall to their death.

I also love watching so many streamers reflexively hog the edge and get knocked off and punished for forgetting they still have to intercept people.

 

[Zol]

edgehogging is what made watching smash gameplay ****ing boring

and it made playing the game boring too

glad to see these nerds will have to get creative with their kills now instead of taking advantage of one of the most uninteresting exploits

 

[Senario]

edgehogging is what made watching smash gameplay ****ing boring

and it made playing the game boring too

glad to see these nerds will have to get creative with their kills now instead of taking advantage of one of the most uninteresting exploits

Probably because you only recovered low which made edgehogging the option to choose against you lol. There are many ways to recover, High like Mango does, low, middle(so you can either grab ledge or airdodge onto stage), ect ect. Having to cover a lot of options is important and that is why edgeguarding was balanced and not boring. This is further complicated if there are platforms on the stage.

If you grabbed the ledge you committed to covering the middle and low recovery options in part due to ledge hopping. What you couldn't cover is a high recovery or your opponent faking you out with an airdodge onto the stage or characters like Sheik seemingly going for the ledge but going straight up. You roll onto the stage, sheik goes straight up, by the time she is at the ledge you are no longer considered on the edge but are unlikely to catch her before she gets it.

There is a lot of depth and creativity not to mention strategy in edgehogging and it isn't simply just rolling onto the stage for free kills. You can use the ledge as a place to remain connected to the stage so you can back air or even ledge hop down air spike for falcon. You could also use it to drop and shine spike with fox or do shine/bair or dair with falco.

A lot of people who think edgeguarding is brain dead need to go deeper in mechanics to realize it was actually very interesting and not braindead easy or the obvious option 100% of the time.

P.S. Would you really feel any better if I stayed on the ledge and instead of rolling onto it I ledgehopped Down air'ed with Marth and Spiked you? Because that is a thing I can do too if you prefer to die like that lol. Same result, you may be a bit salty though.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Edgeguarding still exists though. You simply get a free ride from opponents trying to take the easy way by snagging the ledge.

I mean, god forbid you have to commit to offstage edgeguarding, right?

Not every character is good at offstage edgeguarding. Edge-hogging has been used in competition since the beginning of the series and no one has considered it a "free ride" considering you have to get the opponent off stage first and commit to using their recovery in a specific area offstage.

Noobs frequently disregard its value for plays anyway. For example, Captain Falcon tries to up-b onto the stage. You grab the ledge first, then he flies over the edge, and you use his period of vulnerability to drop then second jump into an aerial on stage, hitting him more safely than by other means.

It's one of several ways to kill people. Edge-hogging constitutes a lot of deaths. Allowing players more resources to get back on stage forces relying on other means to beat them, mainly percentage based deaths. This forces the game to go even longer. That's degenerate.

 

[Zol]

Probably because you only recovered low which made edgehogging the option to choose against you lol. There are many ways to recover, High like Mango does, low, middle(so you can either grab ledge or airdodge onto stage), ect ect. Having to cover a lot of options is important and that is why edgeguarding was balanced and not boring. This is further complicated if there are platforms on the stage.

If you grabbed the ledge you committed to covering the middle and low recovery options in part due to ledge hopping. What you couldn't cover is a high recovery or your opponent faking you out with an airdodge onto the stage or characters like Sheik seemingly going for the ledge but going straight up. You roll onto the stage, sheik goes straight up, by the time she is at the ledge you are no longer considered on the edge but are unlikely to catch her before she gets it.

There is a lot of depth and creativity not to mention strategy in edgehogging and it isn't simply just rolling onto the stage for free kills. You can use the ledge as a place to remain connected to the stage so you can back air or even ledge hop down air spike for falcon. You could also use it to drop and shine spike with fox or do shine/bair or dair with falco.

A lot of people who think edgeguarding is brain dead need to go deeper in mechanics to realize it was actually very interesting and not braindead easy or the obvious option 100% of the time.

P.S. Would you really feel any better if I stayed on the ledge and instead of rolling onto it I ledgehopped Down air'ed with Marth and Spiked you? Because that is a thing I can do too if you prefer to die like that lol. Same result, you may be a bit salty though.

bruh, spare me the technical BS, you're talking to someone that can tell the difference between Street Fighter and Smash Bros

and my play style has nothin to do with why i think edgehogging is a boring ass thing to do lol

it's because it makes the game lose a ****load of the suspense it's supposed to have. it gets boring as hell when you automatically KNOW the dude you're playing against is just gonna be a generic edge fondler if he gets you far enough away from the stage, regardless if the **** will work or not.

wow, your hand touched the edge, now you're invincible for like half a second. now your opponent will either recover, denying you that precious KO you want so bad, OR he'll just....idk, fall i guess.

dont even get me started on the "interesting ways to edgehog", that's just people tryin to make a boring mechanic look flashy
but you're still just sprinkling glitter on a turd lol

and spare me the smash bros badass attitude too. up in here threatening me with a crossdressing fruitcup with a sword lol

 

[Khao]

Nyegh, edgehogging made for some extremely anti-climatic endings for fights.

Good riddance, I say.

 

[Zol]

Nyegh, edgehogging made for some extremely anti-climatic endings for fights.

Good riddance, I say.

see?

thats exactly what im sayin

 

[Xermo]

Not every character is good at offstage edgeguarding. Edge-hogging has been used in competition since the beginning of the series and no one has considered it a "free ride" considering you have to get the opponent off stage first and commit to using their recovery in a specific area offstage.

Noobs frequently disregard its value for plays anyway. For example, Captain Falcon tries to up-b onto the stage. You grab the ledge first, then he flies over the edge, and you use his period of vulnerability to drop then second jump into an aerial on stage, hitting him more safely than by other means.

It's one of several ways to kill people. Edge-hogging constitutes a lot of deaths. Allowing players more resources to get back on stage forces relying on other means to beat them, mainly percentage based deaths. This forces the game to go even longer. That's degenerate.

You must've read my post backwards or something, because I said the one offstage trying to recover is the one getting the free ride back onstage if their opponent goes for the ledge.
I'm not undermining or disregarding the value of previous ledge mechanics, but don't even act like taking the ledge and then rolling in melee snuffed recoveries without effort. The entire ledge mindgame pretty much went as so:
'Is opponent recovering high? Grab ledge and force them onstage into recovery frames and punish; or intercept.'
'Is opponent recovering low? Grab ledge and roll, or grab ledge and punish recovery frames.'

Tbh you're also exagerating how much longer a match becomes with the removal of one form of getting a kill. If the game still runs on an 8 minute timer, then the length of a match will still end within the restriction. The set can still only run for 24+ minutes, regardless if an individual round ran the full timer. Nothing changes.

 

[Joe73191]

Definitely not a fan of the new ledge mechanic. I think edge-hogging was great design for exciting match play, however the new mechanic isn't terrible. I'd say the 60-frame grab-whif mechanic is slightly worse. Though the lack of true dash-dancing and not having momentum from dash to jump are the worst offenders as far as mechanics goes. Some moves have 30 to 40 frames of landing lag which is pretty bad too.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I didn't like Ledgehogging, but the way they dealt with it just visually looks kind of silly.

 

[Hitzel]

I always thought that edgehogging was an interesting mechanic to exploit, with the chess game that naturally comes with the events leading up to the situation.

That being said, the new ledge mechanic, combined with better recoveries and players living longer, looks interesting because it encourages players to get out there and finish kills. It remains to be seen if the offstage play will outweigh the negatives of the new mechanics, but I'm sure it will be fun for a good while.

 

[Terotrous]

Not every character is good at offstage edgeguarding.

Actually, almost all characters are at least decent now. The recovery buffs that various characters got also double as offstage edgeguarding buffs, since they can now go deeper for kills and still make it back.

Of course, some characters are still a little better at it than others, but you don't want the cast to be totally homogenous anyway.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Ever since I began labbing my off-stage game, my matches have very noticeably become much shorter, to the point where 2 stocks continuously begins to look less and less ideal for competitive play. I very often go pretty off the stage to nail a kick to great success, or sometimes I whiff, in which case I come back and rinse and repeat.

Learn your off-stage game and I promise things go right back to being quick, and as a result, they are more exciting.

I think it was an excellent change, imo. Two birds with one stone. Removed a anti-climactic kill tactic, and improved the potential for hype.