Ledge Drop Bacon?

[Protosauce]

So I was thinking about it the other day, and I figured that you could bacon after the ledgedrop hop, like the way amsa spams eggs on yoshi . After I was trying it last night in practice vs bots and my roommate, and I couldent find any situations that it was effective. Either the bacon hit a ledge, or it wasn't in the right position stunt the edge guard.

Any advice? Maybe I was doing it wrong? Is this effective at all?

 

[Dos_Equis]

I've never experimented with doing bacon then regrabbing ledge, but I SOMETIMES jump from ledge double bacon to get on stage. If they're far enough way / are running from the other side of stage, it allows you a second to catch your ground before they can approach. Also if they're super close, the pan can hit them. If they're shielding, between the pan and the two bacon pieces, they'll be scared enough to stay in shield, giving you a grab opportunity.

I don't think it's the best option, but it might be situationally effective. I'll experiment with what you said, though

 

[Metmetm3t]

Bacon's release point makes it unviable for covering the stage like Yoshi can. With some practice you could probably double jump and bacon then drop low and up-B, but you will lose your invul and risk getting edge guarded if they avoid it.

 

[Protosauce]

Based m3 and equis, super awesome for some technical advice. I wish gw could have sweet (?)tech(?) like this though. Alas. So I can't really use this idea effectively?

 

[Shredagaze]

It's funny because I was trying this the other day asking myself if this is legit. It's fun but doesn't seem to viable in my opinion. Maybe in some situations but not as a routine thing. But if you do it quick enough then you can ledge drop short hop bacon to re-grab. However, even that doesn't seem too useful. I would only do it as a mixup

 

[cisyphus]

How about the viability of b reverse ledge drop cook as an edgeguard?

 

[Protosauce]

How about the viability of b reverse ledge drop cook as an edgeguard?

Like hitting em with the pan? Or hoping to get lucky with bacon?

I think if your gonna try and go for the pan, your better off going for the hammer or fair, don't cha think? Although I do like to style...

 

[Metmetm3t]

Well you can't really do ledge drop fair...

I think the main problem with trying to use chef is that pan hit is only one frame. Otherwise, it's a decent hitbox and you can't really ask for anything better than that semi-spike.

 

[cisyphus]

Just tryna salvage this thread and make it useful 0

 

[Protosauce]

Yeah I guess your right. And woops yeah I defs can't ld fair... Lmao

Well I thought it was a cool idea. I've been using it sparingly to mixup my recovery.

I'd anyone's wondering, I've had most successful with it on smashville, fd and GHZ. Really anywhere where there isn't any platforms for you bacon to land on.

 

[Shockbound]

You wouldn't even have to reverse it. Tilting away from the stage to ledge drop would be the same input that grants you a B-turnaround; it'd be kind of like how Marth edgeguards with B-Air. A normal B-reverse would be what you'd want to use on Skyworld and Lylat.

The pan hitbox is a 1 frame semi-spike with powerful base knockback, making it a devastating gimping tool. If you can land a hit with it offstage and during the opponent's double jump, then you can get kills at 0% somewhat reliably. It's like a disjointed Fox shine, but it's way harder to properly utilize it since that single active frame doesn't show up until frame 8 and it can't be DJCd. I guess that's the tradeoff it makes for also being able to launch projectiles at the same time.

The spoiler below contains an obnoxiously large gif of all of the pan gimps I got last night, and it demonstrates just how good the pan can be when properly used. Most of these kills were made while I was the one that was being edgeguarded, so you won't necessarily be seeing any ledgedrops, but take note of the fact that I always use my double jump right before bringing my pan out.

Spoiler: Don't click to enlarge it, it's so big that it's scary. It will also look choppy at first; it needs some time to load.

I think Bowser could have made it back after the second gimp on Skyworld (they were both in the same match) if he had used Up-B instead of Side-B, which I'm assuming was a technical error on his part. I'm not sure where his ledgegrab box is during his Up-B either, so I could be wrong about that. However, the first gimp took away all of his options since I had panslammed him just a few frames after he used his double jump. It's a little hard to tell that he used it due to the color palette of the stage and the fact that I used my jump at the same time, but I checked the replay afterwards and confirmed that he did.

The panslam on Ganondorf at Distant Planet happened on the exact same frame that he used his double jump. Easily the cleanest gimp I've ever done.

The Lylat gimp was either a result of sheer panic or Smash 4 ledge syndrome on Ganondorf's part. In any case, he definitely still had his double jump and likely could have traded that immediate loss for a very disadvantageous edgeguarding situation. I put out an F-Smash just to cover that option and didn't end up needing it, apparently.

I can imagine ledgedrop panslam being useful for times when you know that your opponent is trying to use their vertical recovery move to go beyond the ledge. Most recovery moves also expend any remaining double jumps that the user has, so after the panslam they'll likely be unable to return.

The idea of using panslam from the ledge as an edgeguarding tool sounds appealing, but also very difficult to land on most characters with fast vertical recoveries like Marth and Mario. On the other hand, it sounds like it would be fantastic against characters with recoveries that have a good bit of startup lag to them, like spacies and Ike (I'm unsure of whether his armor will protect him from it though). Slow vertical recoveries like Capt. Falcon and Snake might be vulnerable to this too, but ledgedrop panslam isn't nearly as potent or reliable as the other options we have at our disposal.

I feel like this other gif might give people a better understanding of how this could be applied. I used Up-B two frames later than I could have used it. Up-B can also be replaced with any other move.

I've been doing lab work on this and am finding some pretty interesting properties for how Chef interacts with soft landings. I might make a thread about it.

 

[Protosauce]

;Panslam'. I love it. Your work is awesome. Hopefully yourself+others who are better than me can implement this tech to style on their opponents, and show them how much gw requires more players :D

ok more questions

To clarify, are you double jumping before the input (rising panslam?) because there is to much lag to recover if you falling panslam?

also

I think Bowser could have made it back after the second gimp on Skyworld (they were both in the same match) if he had used Up-B instead of Side-B, which I'm assuming was a technical error on his part. I'm not sure where his ledgegrab box is during his Up-B either, so I could be wrong about that. However, the first gimp took away all of his options since I had panslammed him just a few frames after he used his double jump. It's a little hard to tell that he used it due to the color palette of the stage and the fact that I used my jump at the same time, but I checked the replay afterwards and confirmed that he did.
The panslam on Ganondorf at Distant Planet happened on the exact same frame that he used his double jump. Easily the cleanest gimp I've ever done.
The Lylat gimp was either a result of sheer panic or Smash 4 ledge syndrome on Ganondorf's part. In any case, he definitely still had his double jump and likely could have traded that immediate loss for a very disadvantageous edgeguarding situation. I put out an F-Smash just to cover that option and didn't end up needing it, apparently.

^ amazing gif by the way. did you have problems with the spacing the disjoint (either fading away or crossing up(maybe a bad idea vs spikes) to avoid hitboxes gannon dair in gif)?

and as much as this tech is already super situational, would it make sense to RAR the rising panslam right out of the double jump? can you even RAR on your dj?

i wonder how the panslam will be to avoid once our opponent catches on...

 

[Zoma]

Well you can't really do ledge drop fair...

I think the main problem with trying to use chef is that pan hit is only one frame. Otherwise, it's a decent hitbox and you can't really ask for anything better than that semi-spike.

Sure you can, with the one-frame 135-degree backwards hitbox.

Re: Ledgedrop -> jump -> chef -> regrab, it's not a bad tactic against people who won't approach GnW on the ledge because they're afraid of getting faired. Generally these people will take advantage of GnW's horrible inability to get off of a ledge safely and just throw something out when you getup, ledgedash, or throw out a move from the ledge. If you use chef first, you can regrab and then ledgedash (or fair, or getup, etc) with bacon coverage. They can get hit, have to shield, or be unable to approach without doing one of those things.


Don't do it every time, and it's trajectory-dependent, obviously, but if you know they're fishing for a kill, it's not bad to trip them up.

 

[Shockbound]

To clarify, are you double jumping before the input (rising panslam?) because there is to much lag to recover if you falling panslam?

i wonder how the panslam will be to avoid once our opponent catches on...

I always jump before I whip out my pan because I'd rather not triangulate when exactly I'd have to initiate Chef in order to land the hit based on how fast my opponent and I can fall in exactly 8 frames. Since it'd still be quite possible for them to start fastfalling at any point during these 8 frames, I wouldn't want to risk falling any lower than I would already be for a hit that wouldn't be guaranteed.

By jumping, I don't have to predict where I'll be because I've jumped enough times in the past to just know exactly where I'm going to end up. Jumping always ends my fastfall if I'm in one, returning me to my regular falling speed once I start descending again while also sending me a set distance that I am very familiar with. I can choose to move in any direction that I want at the same time, and this can give me more positions to choose from when I'm deciding where I want my panslam to be.

When I want my pan's hitbox to be somewhere specific, I can call on my extensive knowledge of that jump distance and instantly know that whipping out my pan as soon as I jump will result in my panslam hitbox being in exactly the place that I need it to be. Quickly using Chef after a jump is also hardwired into my muscle memory since I've used shorthop land-canceled bacon a lot in the past as well. B-turnarounds, reverses, and wavebounces add even more options to where I can put my panslam.

Not only do I have more options when I jump, but it's also safer than not jumping because Chef's endlag is over around the time that I've fallen to the point that I was at when I started my jump in the first place. Combined with all of my muscle memory, it's also easier to do than not jumping. So this makes it better, safer, AND easier than doing it without a jump. It doesn't cover all of the same options for hitting an opponent that's already somewhat below me or too deep to even let recover with just Up-B afterwards, but it's a very effective tool for punishing an opponent that tries to interrupt my recovery too early.

Using panslam in a normal fall while conserving my jump actually gives me a better recovery afterwards since rising panslam doesn't actually leave me any higher than where I started it by the time Chef's endlag is over. This is why I make sure that I'm always within Up-B distance of the stage when I initiate a rising panslam. By the time I can act again I can immediately Up-B and get to the ledge to hog it when I'm at the maximum distance I could safely use rising panslam from. There's no way for me to be intercepted by my opponent on my way up since they are sent down and away from me, and every character but Ivysaur (Solar Beam) lacks a move with large enough range to possibly hit me once they're out of hitstun.

also
^ amazing gif by the way. did you have problems with the spacing the disjoint (either fading away or crossing up(maybe a bad idea vs spikes) to avoid hitboxes gannon dair in gif)?

Ganondorf was going for a read there. He expected me to jump back to stage as soon as I was out of hitstun and put his D-Air there to knock me out of it, but I've seen him succeed with this before so I decided to go for the ledge sweetspot instead. I was habitually using jump-Chef during my recoveries that day because the projectile was throwing a wrench in my opponents' attempts to edgeguard, but I noticed the position that Ganondorf was in and thought of something clever.

I decided to hit him with the pan out of a B-turnaround if he decided not to jump, and used the projectile to cover the possibility of him actually jumping so that I'd cover both options and keep him offstage for longer while I recovered. I didn't think that he would burn his jump on the exact frame that I panslammed him seeing as I only put that there to cover the case of him NOT jumping, and I used Up-B to get back to the stage as soon as I could act again. It was only on the way up that I noticed that blue ring coming from where he was before, and he didn't realize what happened until I explained it to him.

and as much as this tech is already super situational, would it make sense to RAR the rising panslam right out of the double jump? can you even RAR on your dj?

A Reverse Aerial Rush (RAR) is a jump made during the turnaround animation of a dash so that your back is facing the direction were were dashing initially but still keeping the momentum of it. While it's an especially useful tool for G&W, it's pretty much only applicable to B-Air and backwards F-Air. Special moves are the only moves that can turn any character around while midair (except for the B-Airs belonging to Marth, Roy, Olimar, and Lucario). Using a jump to change your direction mid-air will turn your model around, but the actual direction your character is facing as far as aerials go remains unaffected by this.

The direction you face any time you begin using a special move depends on whatever your most recent non-neutral control stick input was, excluding up and down. A "B-turnaround" uses this function to reverse the direction you were facing prior to using the move. Using this technique, you can shorthop out of a dash towards one direction while launching bacon in the opposite direction without using a RAR by pulling the control stick in the opposite direction of the dash after leaving the ground, then returning the control stick to neutral and pressing B.

You can also change the way you're facing for 4 frames (iirc) after you've initiated a special move. Changing your direction like this also reverses your momentum and is called a "B-reverse". The use of this technique contributes to G&W's otherwise lackluster mobility in neutral.

The use of a B-turnaround in conjunction with a B-reverse is called a "wavebounce". It's very difficult to use with Neutral-B moves like Chef without the game registering it as a Side-B, but it is nevertheless an advanced movement option that contributes to G&W's mobility.

Returning to your question, I'm assuming that you're talking about using a B-reverse. B-reversing Chef with intent to panslam can come in handy during combos, be it for extending them, ending them, and even assisting your movement for better follow up options. Chef is arguably the most complicated and versatile move in the entire game, and is undoubtedly G&W's greatest asset.

i wonder how the panslam will be to avoid once our opponent catches on...

If you use it right, they'll never catch on.

 

[Protosauce]

A Reverse Aerial Rush (RAR) is a jump made during the turnaround animation of a dash so that your back is facing the direction were were dashing initially but still keeping the momentum of it. While it's an especially useful tool for G&W, it's pretty much only applicable to B-Air and backwards F-Air. Special moves are the only moves that can turn any character around while midair (except for the B-Airs belonging to Marth, Roy, Olimar, and Lucario). Using a jump to change your direction mid-air will turn your model around, but the actual direction your character is facing as far as aerials go remains unaffected by this.

The direction you face any time you begin using a special move depends on whatever your most recent non-neutral control stick input was, excluding up and down. A "B-turnaround" uses this function to reverse the direction you were facing prior to using the move. Using this technique, you can shorthop out of a dash towards one direction while launching bacon in the opposite direction without using a RAR by pulling the control stick in the opposite direction of the dash after leaving the ground, then returning the control stick to neutral and pressing B.

You can also change the way you're facing for 4 frames (iirc) after you've initiated a special move. Changing your direction like this also reverses your momentum and is called a "B-reverse". The use of this technique contributes to G&W's otherwise lackluster mobility in neutral.

The use of a B-turnaround in conjunction with a B-reverse is called a "wavebounce". It's very difficult to use with Neutral-B moves like Chef without the game registering it as a Side-B, but it is nevertheless an advanced movement option that contributes to G&W's mobility.

Returning to your question, I'm assuming that you're talking about using a B-reverse. B-reversing Chef with intent to panslam can come in handy during combos, be it for extending them, ending them, and even assisting your movement for better follow up options. Chef is arguably the most complicated and versatile move in the entire game, and is undoubtedly G&W's greatest asset.

i was referring to the technique where you actually reverse your momentum midair with a special. i think i got the name wrong :/. does that tech ring any bells(gw pun intended)?

ill reply to the rest of that awesome post when im home

 

[Shockbound]

i was referring to the technique where you actually reverse your momentum midair with a special. i think i got the name wrong :/. does that tech ring any bells(gw pun intended)?

ill reply to the rest of that awesome post when im home

Yes, that's a B-Reverse.

Returning to your question, I'm assuming that you're talking about using a B-reverse. B-reversing Chef with intent to panslam can come in handy during combos, be it for extending them, ending them, and even assisting your movement for better follow up options. Chef is arguably the most complicated and versatile move in the entire game, and is undoubtedly G&W's greatest asset.