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Learning Your Ability Scroll: A Kirby Move Analysis Thread (Current Move: D-Tilt)

SapphSabre777

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As per popular demand, this is the Kirby Move Analysis thread, looking at each move that Kirby has to offer and judging and determining its overall usefulness and utility. I'll try to make things as organized as possible (and forgive me for the template layout for the moves), and get things rolling as soon as possible. Throws and specials are also included, since they are moves as well. (Double post from me will be inbound to give my opinion of jab.)

In judging these moves, a scale of 1-5 should be used:

1) Deplorable; a move that has such serious risk and repercussions, or design flaws and little reward, that this move is near useless or too much risk to attempt in a competitive setting, even when used intelligently. Utilize this move as least as possible.

2) Sub-Par; a move that, while has some niche benefits in terms of rewards and use, has a multitude of negatives that outweigh the positives, but not enough to completely invalidate use of this move thanks to its niche benefits. Utilize this move sparingly.

3) Average; a move that is up-the-middle, has nearly as much benefits as flaws, or vice versa, maybe a little bit more benefits than flaws. A decent move that can do damage when used smart. Utilize this move somewhat in key situations.

4) Good; a move that has a sizable amount of rewards with some risks, but not enough to outweigh the positives. Intelligent use of the move allows the character's potential to increase significantly, but not dramatically. Utilize this move often.

5) Excellent; a move that has a massive amount of reward with comparatively minimal risk. Intelligent use of this move opens up the character's potential dramatically. Utilize this move as much as possible.

Jab: [2/24/16 - 2/26/16] 3 [placeholder for explanations via hyperlinks]
F-Tilt: [2/27 - 2/29] 3
U-Tilt:[3/1 - 3/3] 5
D-Tilt: [3/6 - 3/8]
F-Smash:
U-Smash:
D-Smash:
N-Air:
F-Air:
U-Air:
D-Air:
B-Air:
F-Throw:
U-Throw:
D-Throw:
B-Throw:
Inhale:
Hammer Flip:
Final Cutter:
Stone:
 
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Dee-SmashinBoss

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Believe me, I was about too.....oh well it's fine.

Anyways might I make a recommendation?
Because it's obvious people will one way or another, try to compare most, if not all his money goes to other characters, should that be a rule?
I mean if it was, it would be pretty darn difficult to NOT do it, but eh....id say maybe give it a shot for the first couple of moves and see how it turns out.

Also I also recommend to have a rule where you can't judge someone else's opinion of the move, it's THEIR opinion so THEY get to rate it however they want, but they need to at least explain if possible.

Each person should have around 2 or more sentences of why they rate the move.

Other then that, I'll be back with my opinion on jab.
 

SapphSabre777

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Going by the matchup thread, somebody else should have made this...
Believe me, I was about too.....oh well it's fine.

Anyways might I make a recommendation?
Because it's obvious people will one way or another, try to compare most, if not all his money goes to other characters, should that be a rule?
I mean if it was, it would be pretty darn difficult to NOT do it, but eh....id say maybe give it a shot for the first couple of moves and see how it turns out.

Also I also recommend to have a rule where you can't judge someone else's opinion of the move, it's THEIR opinion so THEY get to rate it however they want, but they need to at least explain if possible.

Each person should have around 2 or more sentences of why they rate the move.

Other then that, I'll be back with my opinion on jab.
If you want to be the person responsible for this, or give another idea as to who else, I can be happy to switch out if neither of you think I'm competent enough to do this.

I digress, I should probably start with jab.

Jabs are characterized by how fast they are, how fast they end, and how much range they have. Kirby has one of these that is exceptional. The FAF on his jab1 and jab2 are very good and can create great mix-up options when he does get close, as well as force clanks or shield pressure. Frame 3 is in that above-average, yet average state, but it is OK. What is not OK is the range of the jabs, minus Jab3 and Jab Finisher. They are comparatively much shorter than a lot of jabs in the game, so it loses its value in a lot of MUs where this cannot be thrown out as a spacing tool (because it isn't). However, Kirby's jab transitions very fast, making it very good for catching dash-ins for grabs and such, though it does get countered by simply using a move that has more reach or is stronger, which is not that hard to do in hindsight. Jab1 and Jab2 are decent enough moves, but nothing worth overusing like some other moves, in my opinion. Still, it does pay to use this move as a dash-in counter of sorts.

Jab3 is a very finicky move in that it, like all other multihit Jab3s, can either do a lot of damage to the opponent or can backfire based on simply using it. SDIing this move works, but the vertical range Jab3 and Jab Finisher has can can catch people attempting to SDI out, thus forcing control back to you. If the opponent DOES SDI and escape, this move is very punishable and can backfire. Platforms help alleviate the problem a bit thanks to the opponent possibly jumping out once they escape, and how they must fast-fall or land on the platform to attempt something, but it is a bit risky using this move. Jab Finisher is simply OK if it hits with its massive disjoint, and awful if it doesn't.

In regards to uses, there are a few ways this move is utilized. Again, using this as an anti-rushdown move can work, depending on who you are facing. Characters that can barrel in like Falcon with his Dash Attack make using this move in this regard a bit useless when compared to other moves, but it has some merit in stopping grabs. My personal favorite way to use these moves is as a combo mix-up/finisher and as a ledgeguard trap. Jab1 and Jab2 can cause a lot of mix-ups and frametraps if the FAFs are used to go into stuff like his tilts, which helps further boost their importance. Using the whole jab on someone as a finisher is alright...not the best, but alright. Ledgeguards with this move are excellent, since Jab3's range covers a bit below and above the ledge, which can soak up jumps before Jab Finisher knocks them back. You can also use Jab as a fake-ou, covering ledge get-up and ledge-attack normally, but baiting out a roll (which is arguably the only option that is safe) by holding Jab, then reactively stopping when the character starts an animation for a free punish, like a U-Smash.

Rating: 3.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

Smash Ace
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No, no I am happy that it is you who's doing this.
If I came off harmful in anyway I am deeply sorry, it's perfectly cool with me that your doing this.

I mainly was trying to make sure I get the entire rules and Ideas of how I was going to do this down, before I did, so it would be good, but your good, and thank you.

Anyways my opinion on Jab.

It's alright, it's somewhat quick, and it's a decent interrupting tool.....up close at least. You can get Jab 1 and Jab 2 which may lead to a grab, but you have to get the timing so it doesn't transition to the jab3/finisher.
It's short ranged though, and it's still only frame 3, but that's not really that bad.
It's not an abusive or special move in any case, it's just some nice mixup or tool to have to use every once in a while.

My score is pretty much 3
Btw Sapp are we allowed to use .5? Like 3.5 or 4.5?
 

TimG57867

Smash Ace
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Aug 27, 2015
Messages
510
For now here are a couple of rankings:

Inhale: 4
- While saying that this move has little risk would be a lie, the reward you get for landing it is HUGE. Some matchups like :4olimar:can go from a pain to a breeze simply by landing this move. I actually feel like making TWO matchup charts for Kirby. One with Inhale out of play and one with it factored in. I feel that the reward is so good that it's worth throwing out raw. And that's ignoring that it does have setups. (My favorite and one I've been practicing is Up-Tilt > Jump (if needed) > Inhale). Kirby's should really use it more. Yes you can eat a hard punish, but since you'll probably be eating a ton of percent trying to get in anyway, especially if you're fighting foes like :4greninja: or :4samus:, you might as well try. If you're juggling a :4sheik:, don't overextend strings or finish with an Up Smash and let her reset neutral. Take those needles and camp her silly! Of course you don't want to constantly spam it. But that's why you condition. Toss it out when the least expect. Do it raw at the start of the match or feign an aerial and suck their shield down. Whatever the case, I feel that Inhale's reward makes it above average and if you could land it out of a D-Air alone it'd easily be a 5.

Hammer: 1

This move, no matter how you slice it, is AWFUL. Final Cutter and Down B have issues, but at least they regular situations where they can always be counted on (like combos and edgeguards). Hammer in this game is nothing more than a style move. For every 10 times I watch a Kirby go for it, 8 of those times they eat a punish and squander their momentum. It should only be used for shield break punishes, SUPER hard punishes like a :4jigglypuff: rest, or styling on scrubs. If you're fighting someone good, don't pull it out in neutral. You're better off going for an Inhale in many cases. It's less punishable, easier to hit, and is actually worth the risk.

D-Air: 5

With only competition from maybe Up-Tilt, Kirby's new D-Air is easily one his best moves if not THE best. While startup is high, it's landing lag by D-Air standards is nonexistent. With it you can guarantee you have no landing lag, via the HUP cancel. It's many hitboxes make it good for catching getups, spot dodges, catching weak recoveries, and punishing trips. And Kirby can get almost anything out of it. Grab, jab, tilts, and even D-Smash! And damage and rage barely affect this utility. It's easily the best buff Kirby got in the transition from brawl. Now if only it had 4-6 less frames of setup and can could true combo out of F-Throw. But in any case it's a fantastic move.

Hope to add more later.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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Uh Tim we do one move per day and it's Jab currently,
Sorry :(
but yea, keep those ratings for those moves, I like the way you think.
 

SapphSabre777

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No, no I am happy that it is you who's doing this.
If I came off harmful in anyway I am deeply sorry, it's perfectly cool with me that your doing this.

I mainly was trying to make sure I get the entire rules and Ideas of how I was going to do this down, before I did, so it would be good, but your good, and thank you.
Btw Sapp are we allowed to use .5? Like 3.5 or 4.5?
It's fine. I'm just aware of the fact of my failure to update the MU threads has caused some disruptions and anger. It is OK, though, I just want the best for the character. And yes, you can use .5s, just make sure there is a reason as to why it is in the middle.
 
D

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I give jab a score of 3. It has slow startup and ending lag, and the final hit doesn't do much knockback/damage. It is very useful for quick chip damage. Overall this probably isn't a great move but I still sometimes use it.
 

SapphSabre777

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The little period is over, and it is pretty unanimous that we think that jab is a 3. Sounds about right, personally. Now, for the weekend, we have F-Tilt! Discuss!

Also, I do think that we may go with free-discussion, if needed. Sometimes availability of talking about moves trumps structure, but it is just a floating idea.
 
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D

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Forward tilt is a decent move that from my experience can be used for edgeguarding and poking at opponents. It can be angled, but the angle doesn't really change anything. Your opponent must be at a higher percent to send them into tumble. Overall, outside of edgeguarding, isn't very useful. Score: 2.5 due to it being good at what it does.
 

TimG57867

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I give F-Tilt a 3. It's not a mind blowing move, but it has a simple job and it does it well. It's speed makes it a good spacing/get off me option, fully spaced it's relatively safe on shield, it makes a safe follow up after D-Air and D-Tilt if you're not confident in getting a better follow up, and it's all-round fast.
 
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Wintermelon43

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Feb 13, 2015
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You should probably change the title to match the move we're rating right now.

Anyway, I'd give F-tilt a 1. It has the job of slightly getting people away, and has good frame data, but it's basicially useless since we have better tools.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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Ftilt is just that one move.....the one where it's just there. It ain't bad by any means, but nothing special either. It's one of his decent ranged attacks and still is quick and can be angled.....other then that not incredibly notable.

I'd give it a 3 it's not bad, but it's not really anything great either.
 

SapphSabre777

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You should probably change the title to match the move we're rating right now.
It was 2 AM when I wrote that, lol, so I crashed and couldn't change it. Anyways, my thoughts on F-Tilt.

It is very interesting to see F-Tilt being ranked so low already. Then again, I once thought the same thing. But when a lot of the higher leveled Kirbys, such as Maz, Mike, Ken, and Deven, explained to me F-Tilt in more depth, and me putting in some research and labbing into the move, I was crushed to find that I never gave the move the proper chance it deserves.

I honestly feel that F-Tilt is underrated in his arsenal. So why the unpopular opinion?

Firstly, F-Tilt as a move statistically is phenomenal. A frame 5 move that lasts 4 frames (!), ends only 7 frames more than D-Tilt, does 7%/8% damage, and has massive range is something Kirby really needed; however, this move really shines within its applications.

Simply put, there are a TON of things this move can be used for, and it is consistent in terms of MUs as well, something U-Tilt kind of struggles on, but that comes later. F-Tilt is most commonly used as a spacing tool, and it is fantastic in that regard. Being able to poke shield quite safely is a boon for the puffball, since most of his moves are unsafe. This move is relatively safe when used appropriately. Pivot F-Tilt is just lolsworthy good in terms of pokes and spacing.

F-Tilt angled up makes a surprisingly good anti-air measure, which is surprising to think about. On SHFFing opponents, this move is just a huge damper to approaches or fades because of the reach it has. Characters like Mario that have a SHFF B-Air advantage can get quickly reminded that this move exists, just by tacking on more damage. And by the time it causes the harder stun state, it really becomes felt. Of course, this requires practice because overextension can hurt you, but it personally yields more benefits than U-Tilt on average in an anti-air SHFF situation.

F-Tilt angled down is very decent as a ledgeguarding tool, as it can catch the two frame ledgesnap window with much more ease, as well as forcing a hard hitstun state if hit by it (assuming higher %s). This puts pressure on even-ground and low recoveries, since Kirby can punish and re-position the enemy into a more favorable position for a gimp, or just tack on damage continuously.

The only risks involved with this move in a knowledgeable state is that it loses value against fast fallers, since it creates a SFV Ken Hadouken scenario (unsafe on hit) if they don't have enough damage, and the overextension issue that occurs if they read this. These two issues do occur, but knowing the complete application of this move can carry you a long way.

F-Tilt: 4
 

MrMFC

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I'd give Ftilt a 4 too, same reason as SapphSabre777
 

SapphSabre777

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Well, we have it written down for F-Tilt. The average was 2.75, but since we had repeating 3s and such, the score was bumped up to 3. So now, for the next couple of days, we go to U-Tilt.

I should advise everyone giving a score to up the quality of their opinions. It doesn't necessarily have to be as detailed as my posts (no egotism intended), but some clarity and descriptive information about how the move is used, how it fares in MUs generally, and how the risks/rewards are with the move would really up te quality of such a thread.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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Messages
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Here we go,
THIS MOVE RIGHT HERE
Super fast, with so little cooldown, it has invincibility and is the combo tool of combos.....lol.

This move is fantastic, its good at so many things and it works as a great anti air, and setups into his other moves, it can be a quick punish option sometimes too and it can go nearly unpunished sometimes.

Perfect pivoting this(even though I don't do it) would help it quite well too.
This move is everything, I love how versatile it is, literally I see it's only issue is(debatable) the range, but it's good at everything else.
By far, this may be the best far tilt of his and I give it a fantastic score of 5
 

Quarium

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This move is like the greatest ruiner of dreams everywhere because of how much of a good anti air it is. This move is also our saviour in the Fox MU.
 

TimG57867

Smash Ace
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Aug 27, 2015
Messages
510
This move is only rivaled by D-Air in its utility. It's super fast and lagless. Depending on the percent, it can combo into any of our aerials, confirm into our Inhale, serves as effective disjoint and anti-air, and probably combos into smörgåsbord of other moves we get via Inhale that I am too lazy to list. Properly spaced, it's pretty safe on shield and it juggles the crud out of fast fallers like :4falcon::4fox: and :4sheik:. It's only fault is its range which is really a universal weakness with Kirby's moveset. An easy 5 if you ask me.
 
D

Deleted member

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Where do I start? This move combos fastfallers, sets up combos for non fastfallers and is a wonderful move all in all. It's only problem, as stated by TimG57867 is it's range. Score: 4.5
 

Wintermelon43

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5. Really fast, great followups, combos into itself on fastfallers and heavys. Amazing move altogether
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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I'm assuming Dtilt is today?
Well, this is an amazing tilt like Utilt.

It's not an anti air, but it's range isn't too bad.
It keeps him in his awesome crouch position, and is literally as fast as his awesome Utilt.
It's trip rate is good, and can combo pretty well. You can use this to do that slide thing with Dtilt, to kinda give it more....movement I guess.
It's setups are harder at high per cents, but it's still great as a punish option or just to put some damage on there.
I give it a 4.5
 

SapphSabre777

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No surprise, U-Tilt gets a 5 in its usefulness as a move. I was away for a tournament yesterday, thus the delay in terms of getting everything updated. My apologies.

Anyways, now to the wonderful world of D-Tilt! Discuss!
 
D

Deleted member

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D tilt is a decent move with some small combo potential. The best part about down tilt is that is jab locks, giving you a wonderful punish tool. I think down tilt is good, but Kirby has better combo tools. Score: 4
 
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SapphSabre777

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We only have one vote in regards to this move: D-Tilt. Do you think we can get some more votes?

If this continues, then perhaps open discussion would be a better thing to implement to talk about the other moves.
 
D

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I'm fine with open discussion as long as it doesn't turn into the MU database thread, with nothing being updated.
 

TimG57867

Smash Ace
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I give D-Tilt a 4.

It's super fast and refreshes our crouching height. Best part about it though is that it can trip which leads into a variety of followups. It also makes a nice followup after a fast fall D-Air and can make for safe shield pressure against characters that can't grab a crouching Kirby. If the trip rate was more consistent I'd give it a 5.
 

SapphSabre777

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Because of how slow everything is going with this thread, I am going to make this open discussion. There's no need to simply rank things right now if we are just held off to one move at a time. This thread should reflect the community's opinion on moves at their own free will. As such, OPEN DISCUSSION TIME (will be out for a while because college).
 
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