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Learning Mindgames?

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Ulti

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
355
Hello all,

I've been going to local tournaments for a little under a year now. While my tech skill has increased at least 3-fold since I started, but I find myself usually losing to same people over and over again. I've gotten good advice, from spacing better and trying a different approach tactic, but I think I've run into a wall now. Most people I've played with say I need better mindgames - I think I agree with them.

I was wondering if anyone had any advice for trying "to learn" (I know mindgames vary from opponent to opponent) mindgames, or just being less predictable in general. I don't have much competition nearby, so I only get to play at the tournaments/smash fests every two weeks or so. Basically what I think I need most, is something I can practice when competition isn't at hand.

I expect that the answer to this will be "you can't practice mindgames by yourself." But I figured if I don't look I definately won't find anything.

Thanks for your time.
 

Eaode

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
2,923
Location
Glen Cove/RIT, New York.
wierd, i thought people naturally developped mindgames after lots of tourney experience.

i think you're right about the fact that you cant practice them by yourself.
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
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Modesto, CA
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choknater
Well, being aggressive against computers to pull off crazy combos is one thing. Yes, it can be productive and it can heavily improve your technical skill. Aggressiveness can be a great mindgame, depending on your character.

But I'd say one of the best ways to develop them is to find a crew of smasher friends, at least four. That way, you have a bunch of different and unique styles to adapt to with your own mental ability, and you can see why other, better players make the decisions that they make.

It's not a bad thing to practice by yourself. It can do you a lot of good. It'll still help your mindgames and show you your own technical prowess, but the mindgame improvement of self-training is only very slight.

some things that might help you develop mindgames:
- 1. Watch pro videos, because you can ALWAYS learn something from better players. However, be careful when watching them. Don't oogle their tech skill or watch both players' mindgames at once. It's more helpful to focus on one player's decisions. If you want to watch videos, i HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend Isai's falcon.
- 2. Like I previously mentioned, find a crew.
- 3. Learn various different characters and see how you fare with ones that you don't really know how to play. If you get 4-stocked, this shows that your mindgames are limited. The same mindgames can be applied to any character. The only difference is their moves.
- 4. Tournament experience.
 

FastFox

Faster than most vehicles
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 6, 2005
Messages
4,857
Location
The tall grass
You can't "learn" mindgames.

In my opinion, they come with and rely heavily on experience.
 

Wilhelmsan

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Messages
1,006
Location
Austin, TX
Time. That sounds like the one thing you're missing. You can learn all the advanced techniques through and through, but never really advance if you don't start thinking about slowing down/speeding up your approaches.
 

Airo

Smash Lord
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
1,122
Location
Richmond, BritishColumbia, Canada (williams+railw
mindgames translates into two parts: unpredictability and predicting

practice unpredictability.
hypothesize situations and imagine your usual reaction, think of alternatives to what you usually do. learn not to react the same way to given situations. when you are predictable, you will loose.

practice predicting.
study your enemy's patterns and create counters for them. learn to punish their habits.
(the following is only a theory) this may sound crazy, but heres a logical solution when you are alone. play a level 9 computer, study its movements, computers are generally very predictable. after one match, play against computers again, but not the same character. a different computer character would have different movesets and react to same given situations differently. browsing through different computer characters. learn to pickup movement patterns quickly. predictation translates to adaptation, and adaptation contributes to success.
 

1048576

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
3,417
Ask your opponents to tell you what they can predict in advance, then choose an alternate behavior.
 

CopyCat

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 23, 2005
Messages
320
Location
Linden, NJ
Based on my opinion (so do not believe in what I have to say) one way that can help you greatly develop mindgames is recording your own matches on a VCR and watching them. Going over what you where thinking in a specific situation, what you did in the situation, and what you can do if the situation comes up again. I know there are too many things you may want to go over ,but you should try to focus on your main weak points so that you can have a better foundation on fighting a character or person that seems to beat you over and over. One example is a dash dancing fox that you can't hit ,but seems easy for the fox to hit you, or a fair crazy marth that never seems to stop swinging his sword witch may force you to go defensive. These are just some of the things you can do to get your mindgame better ,but you should also take your time on devloping your mindgames by taking a break on playing the game everyday so that your mind can be clear and process what to do in a situation faster to the point where it becomes an instinctive reaction. Also choknater has some good points that you should also follow to get better. I hope this information can help you out to get your mind games better peace.
 

TheCatPhysician

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Messages
976
Location
Cordova, Alaska
Based on my opinion (so do not believe in what I have to say) one way that can help you greatly develop mindgames is recording your own matches on a VCR and watching them. Going over what you where thinking in a specific situation, what you did in the situation, and what you can do if the situation comes up again. I know there are too many things you may want to go over ,but you should try to focus on your main weak points so that you can have a better foundation on fighting a character or person that seems to beat you over and over. One example is a dash dancing fox that you can't hit ,but seems easy for the fox to hit you, or a fair crazy marth that never seems to stop swinging his sword witch may force you to go defensive. These are just some of the things you can do to get your mindgame better ,but you should also take your time on devloping your mindgames by taking a break on playing the game everyday so that your mind can be clear and process what to do in a situation faster to the point where it becomes an instinctive reaction. Also choknater has some good points that you should also follow to get better. I hope this information can help you out to get your mind games better peace.
This is excellent advice. I had the same problem before, and I think the cause is playing lazy. After the people in my group got technical skills and everything down, we never really payed attention to each other in our matches, and after just playing each other so much, we eventually got to play just one comfortable lazy way. It's kind of hard to explain, but it's like we weren't using mindgames at all. We always did the same things over and over, and had even matches. That's why whenever a new person came along, even if they weren't very competitive, they would be very disruptive to us, as in they disrupted our lazy way of playing, where none of us try anything new or look at what the opponent's doing. We never looked at what was going on in the matches, to see all the things we could do to exploit each other's patterns.

So you just have to really force yourself to get better. If the people in my group never played anyone else, we probably would have almost never changed, because we were pretty much even with each other, and we were too comfortable to try anything new. Probably the best thing to do like CopyCat said is watch videos of yourself and find all your patterns that are getting exploited. Anytime someone lands a hit or combo on you, it was either because you messed up with your fingers, or because you made the wrong decision. And any time that happens, find out what you did wrong. Look at it from their perspective to see what they were thinking when they were playing you.

Also if you have friends that play the same way with you like my group was, study them and find out all their patterns, and all the counters to those patterns; you have to look at the big picture, starting from the basics and looking at everything you can do different to counter what they'll do. I found that there were just so many habits and things that we expected each other to do that my friends and I would have never noticed if we never played someone else who didn't play the same way as us. An example is all the places where we would expect each other to attack, and there were so many places where if one of us could just anticipate ONE move ahead, we would find so many places where we could just stop, wait, and shield grab or something else to counter. Sometimes just standing still when I would normally subconsciously jump in with an aerial would completely throw my friends off guard, because it disrupts our happy little patterns. So if you're in this situation, start focusing on what you can do to win, not just have a close match. Find all of your friend's happy patterns and expectancies, and disrupt the crap out of him. You should be able to utterly destroy him every match, so from there he will either:

A. Quit because he's too lazy to figure out how he can get better
or
B. Keep playing and get back to the point where he can compete with you, which means he will have to see his bad habits for what they are, and change them.

So in other words he will be forced to get better, or quit. Or he might just be lazy but not want to quit, so he wont change and lose terribly every match. Which would be weird and probably not a good person to play against frequently.
 

Fefnir Cerveau

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Messages
1,416
Location
Honolulu, Hawaii
Some of those are nice.

I think recording yourself playing, then reviewing it after will be a good idea. You can check out what you're doing bad, and how you're being predictable.

You can also maybe have another person give you _____(taught at school) criticisms to get your game up.
 

iankobe

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 25, 2005
Messages
1,334
Location
Los Angeles, CA
In my own opinion, Mind games are developed ONLY through experiences, and time. Hmm...how can I describe this...

Let me put it in this way. It's sort of like playing basketball. Imagine now that you are the point guard of your team, which means you are the playmaker. Now you are to decide whether you want to set up a pick'n'roll, or maybe an isolation. But at the same time your team is down by 2 point and the clock is melting. Now you only have two options. 1) Make a basket and count the game, or 2) set up a three point shooter up and risk a threepointer to lead by one point. As you can see, the defending opponet is also worrying about your team from scoring. It is now your decision to pick what you want to do.

As you can see, this is NOT an easy decision to make. It takes A LOT of experiences and training to whether how you take the ball inside or pass the ball back out. This goes the same with Smash. Pretend that you are a Fox and your opponet is a Marth. The Marth is Chaingrabbing you at early damage and is setting up a combo followed by a tipper. Now that you have decision whether you want to try to DI out of the grabs or Shine out of it. Or even NOT to DI. This takes a lot of experiences and sometimes maybe even luck.

Again, in my own opinion, in order to be good, or even maybe to master "Mind games", the player himself has to be in those situations before in order to develop the ways to counter the mind games. Because during a game of smash, (1 on1) two players with two different mind games are playing against each other. Basically, and most of the time the player who has more exerience wins. Now this also includes a bit of technical skills because you NEED those skills in order to pull of the mindgames that you want to do.

I think that all smashers need both technical skills and mind games especially because if a player has the technical skills, but not the mind games. This player might not play in the smartest way but he/she can pull of deadly combos. (Ex. In my own opinion, Bombsoilder came up to my mind) On the other hand we have a player that has good mind games, but still lack of technical skills. Now he/she might not know how to pull of crazy combos and all, but this person would know the best way of how to play the game in a variety of situations with different circumstances.

Mindgames take time. As well as technical skills. Its just the heart and patience that matters. Good luck, and hope that helped.

p.s. You don't have to agree with me on this, but please feel free to reply back and tell me what you think.
 

mood4food77

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Messages
5,964
mind games cannot be taught, only acquired through constant play

techniques to help mindgames can be taught like the wavedash, dash dance, etc

sometimes playing no mindgames is a mindgame in itself, i did it once and almost won...it was pretty funny, especially since i was ganon against a falco...
 

Respawn

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
288
Location
In the shadows. Or NE Ohio. Whichever sounds bette
I would just watch other people play, and see if you notice what catchs people off-gaurd. I remember when I went to my first tourney, I learned a bunch of stuff just by watching other people play.

I would write more, but I'm doing this on my PSP right now, making it a whole lot more difficult.
 

Tera253

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Messages
866
Location
Spamland
PSP? traitor! anyways, if you can pay your opponent/s regularly, learn their techniques and just avoid them. fo Tera, it has yet to fail.
~Tera253~
 

JKJ

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
541
Location
New York
Probably the hardest part of playing Smash is learning mindgames. I play Falco, so his dash dance is sub-par (a flaw which I hate) but his wavedash game is useful. I tend to dash forward>WD back or SH forward>Waveland back to bait moves. Sometimes, just mixing up your approach for a bit can confuse your opponent. Try to condition them. Use the same option (I.E. recovering high) multiple times, and then later, when an edgeguard is crucial for them, they will go high, and you can go to the ledge. Stuff like that is very important to your gameplay.
 

Massive

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
2,833
Location
Kansas City, MO
There is no such thing as mindgames.
Seriously.

From your perspective, nothing you do should be considered a mindgame.
A combination of prediction, reads, and good control can make people feel like you're inside of their head, when you're actually just playing smart. The most visible instances of mindgames are usually successful reads and/or a disparity of skill between players.

Techchasing someone repeatedly, getting reads, ledge games, delayed attacks, retreating wavedashes, deceptive movement techniques, and a slew of other tricks/strategies are all things which could be considered "mindgames" but are definitely things you can practice, either with friends or alone.

The easiest way to learn this stuff is to start watching your opponent more than yourself. You should inherently know what action your character is in, you need to worry about what the other player is doing and react to or predict the next events that will occur.

This type of mindset can be very hard to achieve, especially if you're big into tech skill and have been practicing by watching your own character for cues.
 
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