L cancel and Auto cancel question

[tasteless gentleman]

I have an odd question about bowser's nair.

I notice the auto cancellable frames are after the actual hit box frames. So i have two questions.

1. How do auto cancels work exactly?

2. If the auto cancel window is after the hitbox window, how does it make it safer on shield to auto cancel (in theory you should not be hitting right?)

I could be wrong about #2 but that is why im asking

Thank you in advance. Also i was thinking about posting this is bowser discussion but feel like the first question takes more priority.

 

[Stride]

Autocancelling gives you the same landing lag as landing from a jump (4 frames for almost every character, 6 for Bowser) instead of the aerial's normal landing lag. Landing during the autocancel window will autocancel the aerial.

 

[CORY]

if you hit in such a way that you land during the auto cancel window (instead of before it, likely during the attack's active frames), you initiate your normal landing (as stride said). the additional safety would come from the (likely) vastly reduced landing lag, even if you have to hit slightly earlier with the attack.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

can you L cancel an auto cancel?

And what about the bowser nair question? I heard you can attack and auto cancel it, but by looking at it, it appears the hitbox frames and auto cancel window just doesnt add up

 

[CORY]

i think you can lcancel an auto cancel, it would just make you use the lcancelled landing animation, though (and i'm not entirely sure on whether it's possible. i just sorta remember hearing it...)

and how do you mean they don't add up? as in the active hitboxe aren't out during the auto cancel window? or that you did the math and it doesn't work out to hit with the last frame of the aerial, exactly the perfect amount of frames before landing to enter the auto cancel window, then worked the shield stun into that information?

if the former, you don't need to have the auto cancel be during the attack to make it work. you just need to hit with the aerial early enough that you land during the auto cancel windows.

if the latter, well, you'd have to ask whoever put the data in there how they did it.

personally, i'm too lazy to go look it up right now, this is just being typed up during a workout break.

 

[mimgrim]

You cannot L-cancel and auto-cancel. If you try to do that you will most likely go into your shield instead.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

i think you can lcancel an auto cancel, it would just make you use the lcancelled landing animation, though (and i'm not entirely sure on whether it's possible. i just sorta remember hearing it...)

and how do you mean they don't add up? as in the active hitboxe aren't out during the auto cancel window? or that you did the math and it doesn't work out to hit with the last frame of the aerial, exactly the perfect amount of frames before landing to enter the auto cancel window, then worked the shield stun into that information?

if the former, you don't need to have the auto cancel be during the attack to make it work. you just need to hit with the aerial early enough that you land during the auto cancel windows.

if the latter, well, you'd have to ask whoever put the data in there how they did it.

personally, i'm too lazy to go look it up right now, this is just being typed up during a workout break.

[/collapse]
[collapse=Neutral Air]
Animation

1x|0.5x

|

Overview

Name/Label|Duration|Active Hitboxes|IASA|Landing Lag * |Auto-cancel Window|Armor
Neutral Air |52|5-28|45|26/13/6|1-4, 32-52| 140: 5-8

Hitbox Data
Neutral Air

Duration|ID|Size|Damage (Hit/Shield)|Angle|KB Units (0%/100%)|BKB/WDSK/KBG|SDI Multiplier|Clang|Effect|Hitstun (0%/100%)|Shieldstun|Hitlag|Shield Advantage *
5-10| 0 |9.77|13/9.1|361°|60.32/144.32|35/0/80|1x|True|Normal|24/57|7|7| -19 / -6 / -20
11-14| 0 |9.77|13/9.1|361°|55.32/139.32|30/0/80|1x|True|Normal|22/55|7|7| -19 / -6 / -16
15-28| 0 |9.77|13/9.1|361°|45.32/129.32|20/0/80|1x|True|Normal|18/51|7|7| -19 / -6 / -2

*Format is: Normal/L-Cancel/Auto-cancel
[/collapse]


heres the info and youll see the hit boxes dont line up, so maybe i have to hit with precise timing?

 

[Stride]

You seem to be confused about the notation in the frame data thread if you don't understand how you can both hit with an attack and autocancel it. The autocancel window is completely independent of the frames the hitboxes are active for; if you land during the autocancel window then you will autocancel, regardless of whether you hit or not, or whether the hitboxes are active. The frames the hitboxes are active for are irrelevant; there's no way for the active hitbox frames and the autocancel frames to "not add up".

Actually, now that you've linked to the frame data thread you've reminded me that Bowser suffers extra landing lag from a jump. Autocancelling doesn't technically give you 4 frames of landing lag, but rather whatever your normal empty landing lag is (6 frames in Bowser's case; almost every character has 4 frames though).

i think you can lcancel an auto cancel, it would just make you use the lcancelled landing animation, though (and i'm not entirely sure on whether it's possible. i just sorta remember hearing it...)

Autocancels take priority over L-cancels; if you input an L-cancel and then land during the autocancel window then you'll autocancel.

You cannot L-cancel and auto-cancel. If you try to do that you will most likely go into your shield instead.

It depends on when you input the L-cancel and how quickly you release it. 4 frames + n<7 frames is more than enough time to release the trigger (or Z button); the only reason you'd hold shield is because you're used to holding it longer than necessary for a laggy attack. It's completely avoidable.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

You seem to be confused about the notation in the frame data thread if you don't understand how you can both hit with an attack and autocancel it. The autocancel window is completely independent of the frames the hitboxes are active for; if you land during the autocancel window then you will autocancel, regardless of whether you hit or not, or whether the hitboxes are active. The frames the hitboxes are active for are irrelevant; there's no way for the active hitbox frames and the autocancel frames to "not add up".

Actually, now that you've linked to the frame data thread you've reminded me that Bowser suffers extra landing lag from a jump. Autocancelling doesn't technically give you 4 frames of landing lag, but rather whatever your normal empty landing lag is (6 frames in Bowser's case; almost every character has 4 frames though).


Autocancels take priority over L-cancels; if you input an L-cancel and then land during the autocancel window then you'll autocancel.


It depends on when you input the L-cancel and how quickly you release it. 4 frames + n<7 frames is more than enough time to release the trigger (or Z button); the only reason you'd hold shield is because you're used to holding it longer than necessary for a laggy attack. It's completely avoidable.

So shield advantage is the amount of "advantage in frames" if you land the attack and auto cancel it? so bowser has a 6 frame landing lag, so after he lands a nair and auto cancels the nair, he will recover in 6 frames? so bowser has a 6 frame landing lag, so after he lands a nair and auto cancels the nair, he will recover in 6 frames and in theory be at a frame disadvantage of 2

 

[Stride]

So shield advantage is the amount of "advantage in frames" if you land the attack and auto cancel it? so bowser has a 6 frame landing lag, so after he lands a nair and auto cancels the nair, he will recover in 6 frames? so bowser has a 6 frame landing lag, so after he lands a nair and auto cancels the nair, he will recover in 6 frames and in theory be at a frame disadvantage of 2

Frame advantage is the difference between how fast your opponent can act and how fast you can act after being hit/hitting with a move. "Autocancel nair is -2 on shield" means that your opponent is out of shieldstun 2 frames before you are out of landing lag.

• Bowser's autocancel aerials have 6 frames of landing lag.
• Nair does 13 damage, and therefore does 7 frames of shieldstun (and 7 frames of hitlag).
• Nair's hitboxes terminate on frame 28.
• The earliest you can autocancel the nair is frame 32 (4 frames after the last frame the hitbox is active for); you land on that frame, therefore you waste 3 frames with falling between the hit and the autocancel window.
• Therefore, if you hit as late as possible and land on the first possible frame of the autocancel window, your frame advantage is -2.
• If you land later or hit earlier (which will often be the case), then you will have less frame advantage.

The calculation is: "7 frames of shieldstun" - "3 frames of waiting" - "6 frames landing lag" = "-2 frame advantage"

Assuming you hit with frame 28 of nair (the latest you possibly can), the frame data is:

Frame|Bowser|Opponent
1|Hitlag (Nair frame 28)|Hitlag
2|Hitlag (Nair frame 28)|Hitlag
3|Hitlag (Nair frame 28)|Hitlag
4|Hitlag (Nair frame 28)|Hitlag
5|Hitlag (Nair frame 28)|Hitlag
6|Hitlag (Nair frame 28)|Hitlag
7|Hitlag (Nair frame 28)|Hitlag
8|Falling (Nair frame 29)|Shieldstun
9|Falling (Nair frame 30)|Shieldstun
10|Falling (Nair frame 31)|Shieldstun
11|Landing lag|Shieldstun
12|Landing lag|Shieldstun
13|Landing lag|Shieldstun
14|Landing lag|Shieldstun
15|Landing lag|Actionable (from shield)
16|Landing lag|Actionable (from shield/out of shield options)
17|Actionable|Actionable (from shield/out of shield options)

 

[Manaconda]

So shield advantage is the amount of "advantage in frames" if you land the attack and auto cancel it?

Shield advantage doesn't necessarily have anything to do with auto-cancelling an attack; it might, but it doesn't have to.

This is the basic scenario:

Your opponent has their shield up.
You hit them with an aerial.
Your opponent goes into shield stun.
You go into hitlag (?), which is always (?) shorter than their shield stun.
You then land, and either suffer:
. 1) normal landing lag if miss your L-cancel
. 2) halved landing lag (rounded) if you do L-cancel
. 3) auto-cancel landing lag if you hit the ground during the auto-cancel frames of your aerial (for Bowser's nair, this is if you land on frames 32 to 52 of the move)

Your shield advantage is then calculated as how many frames you regain control of your character (meaning you can begin to enter an input and have it actually do something) earlier than your opponent regains control of their character. Positive means you can begin to act before your opponent, negative means you begin to act after your opponent.

It depends on a lot of factors, such as:

1) what type of landing lag you suffered
2) how long their shield was in shieldstun (which can be affected by move staleness)
3) how long you were in hitlag (I'm not actually sure what this depends on)
4) and how much earlier your hitbox hit their shield before you entered your landing lag (if Bowser's nair hit the top of the opponent's shield and then he had to take a while to fall to the ground, his shield advantage would be more negative than if he hit the opponent's shield the frame before he hit the ground)

For example, if you spaced properly and hit your opponent's shield with nair's hitbox during one of the frames between frames 15 to 28, then hit the ground immediately on the next frame with L-cancelled landing lag, you would be -6 on their shield, meaning your opponent regains control 6 frames earlier than you do. In most cases, you either hope you spaced it well enough that your opponent can't punish you (doesn't seem possible with nair, another move might be better, like fair), depend on the human factor that they can't immediately act out of shieldstun (apart from buffered rolls, it's very hard to do), or throw out an up-b and slide away (it's much easier to tell when you regain control of your character than when they regain control of theirs, since you're so used to your own moves).

Edit: I got ninja'd.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Sartron and Taytor kinda helped explaining it in the exact same thread actually.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

You go into hitlag (?), which is always (?) shorter than their shield stun.

You both cleared up everything, but i think falcon and marth have + frame advantage.

Anyways so in theory i can hit with an auto cancelled nair, and throw a move out on frame 3 of their actionable frame (up b in this case) and be pretty safe because of invulnerable frames as long as they dont have a frame 1-2 attack?

 

[Stride]

You both cleared up everything, but i think falcon and marth have + frame advantage.

What do you mean?

Anyways so in theory i can hit with an auto cancelled nair, and throw a move out on frame 3 of their actionable frame (up b in this case) and be pretty safe because of invulnerable frames as long as they dont have a frame 1-2 attack?

They won't be able to hit you without an attack that hits on frame 1 or frame 2, yes. It's still not really safe though, since they can just shield the up-B and then punish you. You also give up any pressure you might have been applying. That's why you mix up up-B with grabs (including the command grab), or various other options; so they can't just wait for it every time (or, more generally: so they can't just do the same option every time, and therefore they always undertake some sort of risk), and so that you can condition them to allow you to go for the other (higher reward) options.

 

[Manaconda]

Yes, if it's possible to land an auto-cancelled nair like that, then you're right, as long as you mix up your options. And nobody can put out a frame 1/2 hitbox/grabbox in this game out of a normal shield, not even Fox/GnW. It is possible with powershields because you will remain in hitlag while your opponent can immediately attack.

Also, Falcon only has a positive frame advantage when he does a perfect, unstaled knee on shield, in which he's +1 on shield (I believe). By 'perfect', I mean the knee lands right before he hits the ground. Marth is almost never positive on shield with any of his moves, it's just that proper spacing involving Marth means that the opponent he pressures is too far away to punish him.

 

[Stride]

Yes, if it's possible to land an auto-cancelled nair like that, then you're right, as long as you mix up your options. And nobody can put out a frame 1/2 hitbox/grabbox in this game out of a normal shield, not even Fox/GnW. It is possible with powershields because you will remain in hitlag while your opponent can immediately attack.

You still undergo hitlag and shieldstun when you powershield a physical attack. You only skip them when you reflect a projectile. See this: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-time-for-powershields-is-now.409558/#post-19613748

 

[tasteless gentleman]

What do you mean?


They won't be able to hit you without an attack that hits on frame 1 or frame 2, yes. It's still not really safe though, since they can just shield the up-B and then punish you. You also give up any pressure you might have been applying. That's why you mix up up-B with grabs (including the command grab), or various other options; so they can't just wait for it every time (or, more generally: so they can't just do the same option every time, and therefore they always undertake some sort of risk), and so that you can condition them to allow you to go for the other (higher reward) options.

But most grabs are frame 7-ish, i should be invulnerable for anything faster and hitting anything slower right?

 

[Stride]

But most grabs are frame 7-ish, i should be invulnerable for anything faster and hitting anything slower right?

You'll be intangible for an immediate shieldgrab, and if they try to do an immediate out of shield option then you could end up hitting them out of it (depending on where you're positioned and exactly what they do). Regardless, they can still just hold shield and wait for you to up-B, then punish it; immediate up-B only beats immediate counter options, and is unsafe against everything else.