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Knuttz Olimar Vids-Rate if you want

knuttz45

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
921
Location
Boise, ID
Just got a couple vids up. Not the best quality, and the fourth cuts off. :( Comment on them if you'd like.

Out of these 4...the matces were 2-2. (BC wins last match)
BattleChrist(Toon Link) vs. Knuttz(Olimar)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9RywjyD3ZY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwITEyVyTTA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIb_qRclaYo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMVkEEQ7Zh4&feature=related


In The vids I didn't post...i don't try to spike as much. Just trying different grab games....
 

Kabuto Mushi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
252
I can't tell if its my cpu or your vids, but I can't make out much through the blurriness. You sound like you're doing OK, though. :embarrass
 

knuttz45

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
921
Location
Boise, ID
I can't tell if its my cpu or your vids, but I can't make out much through the blurriness. You sound like you're doing OK, though. :embarrass

The second one sucks....really bad. I was expirimenting with different resolutions. The third one is the best one....
 

shrinkray21

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
724
Location
Brookings, SD
Okay - I watched the First Two vids - will try to watch the other two when I get time.

First off - let me say the Tink you played was excellent - very impressive - and you competed well with him - says a lot about you - Tink is a difficult matchup for Olly IMO.

Good Things: Very good use of the nairs - low damage throw combos were right on, very solid. A couple really good down dodges to down smash. Overall very very impressive.

Things to Improve: Most likely why these were posted, we all want to get better. I can't read your mind, but it didn't seem like to always kept track of pikmin order. Especially with purple - these are great for recovering to canceling Tink's range. A couple times in the first match, I saw you running with 2-3 Pikmin without doing any plucks, very very dangerous. Single Pluck doesn't stall you at all, if at the least you should try to get one more whenever you can, very helpful. I also think a little work needs to be done with your SAF on your down B. I saw you try it once or twice but no successful attempts. Also remember roll call gives you pikmin order, which can help you keep track of which pikmin you are on.

Very good job!
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
Have to agree with shrinkray on the pikmin order point, its not really that difficult of a issue to work on really simply requires conscious effort until it becomes habit. At one point you ran across the stage to attempt a SH DAir with a white pikmin, it made me laugh. Using the different pikmin to their advantages will only help you overall.

Second thing I noticed was a general lack of dodging on both you and your opponents part. It seemed both of you would much rather throw out as many attacks as possible, and if it wasn't possible you'd shield. In general perhaps not a bad idea, however as you'll see most of the dodges you did so correctly you were rewarded for, a number of times as noted with a DSmash. I would suggest developing your dodging some, obviously you still need to attack and shield, but the rolls spot and air dodge all open up options your currently not taking full advantage of. You'll also find that in many cases, particularly when you dodge a move that doesn't necessarily have a large amount of lag down time, that you'll more often connect by quickly jabbing rather than attempting a DSmash. Jab is currently an underrated Olimar move, its I believe Olimar's fastest move, the hitbox isn't small and its knock back is more than enough to re-establish spacing. The range isn't impressive compared to Olimar's moveset, if you play too much Olimar its very easy to consider the range too small to use, but honestly its enough to deal very well with those situations you find yourself and your opponent on top of each other. Also as you pick up dodging more, odds are your opponent(s) will too once they see your success with it, Jab works wonders on dodging opponents as well, and is Olimar's best initial answer against dodging.

TL is a quick opponent so spacing is messy and usually more fluid based on momentum than against slower opponents. However if you can develop a great sense of timing and range on your longer moves (Grab, FSmash, UpB) you already have fairly good shield grabbing it seems, you could suddenly opt to change the pace of the game. By resorting to a defensive, slower, spacing game where your opponent has to move in on you prior to landing an attack, you'll probably catch your opponent off guard for a while, and force them to adjust. Many players are weaker against one type of play style, and the general change in pace allows you to take control of the match to some degree, and once your opponent has settled into that type of game you can change back into the aggressive pressure play style you have naturally. That being said TL is probably one of the hardest to do this with, being both quick and having great projectiles. You'll notice there are times this happens, when each of you are content to throw things back and forth, its just a worthwhile thing to be aware of and possibly manipulate, perhaps you already do and what shown is what you've found to be most effective.

You make great use of a bunch of different moves, preventing any real hit degradation, however at times your choices seemed odd. For instance the first game, first stock, you nearly get the KO with the USmash, a very reliable KO move and my personal favorite. You hadn't used it yet so it was full strength, unfortunately you were 5 or 10% too low to get the kill still. However, after that, you landed a large amount of... non KO moves. At that point your best bet would've likely been a Dsmash, another USmash, or if you have it fairly strong (or a red or purple pikmin) a FAir. You could've gotten the KO much earlier, saving yourself damage allowing you to do more against his next stock before losing your first.

Personally you NAir and DAir more frequently than I believe is optimal, I find those moves to be much more situational in use rather than standard approaches. However they served fairly well for you, effective for maintaining constant pressure, I'm a bit more of a spaced guy myself. However you showed great spacing with the FAir a few times, I remember two of note in the pkmn stadium match that were very good, you jumped forward attacked at the right time and DIed back correctly to prevent any punishment. Perhaps some more of that would aid you in changing the pace and play style mid game if you end up trying to develop that ability.

So far its been slightly nit picky specific and situational, but thats because your playing a great Olimar. Most of the people in this forum could certainly learn a great deal from those videos, thanks for sharing. In particular you play a great pressure Olimar, you demonstrate notable poise in using aerials for recovery, you use many of his moves, shield well. Wish the other videos were available, I feel you probably played better in those just because you remove the frequent DAir use and attempts. Olimar is pretty solid at hindering opponents reseting on the stage if you can't prevent them from grabbing the ledge, but spike attempts typically require you giving up that opportunity in hopes of the spike kill.

Great videos, hope you find something useful in my ramblings above, keep up the good work, and would love to see you around here some more.


@ Shrinkray: Hey promise I'll get to your videos soon =P been meaning too but simply too busy a week



-True
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
Okay - I watched the First Two vids - will try to watch the other two when I get time.

First off - let me say the Tink you played was excellent - very impressive - and you competed well with him - says a lot about you - Tink is a difficult matchup for Olly IMO.

Good Things: Very good use of the nairs - low damage throw combos were right on, very solid. A couple really good down dodges to down smash. Overall very very impressive.

Things to Improve: Most likely why these were posted, we all want to get better. I can't read your mind, but it didn't seem like to always kept track of pikmin order. Especially with purple - these are great for recovering to canceling Tink's range. A couple times in the first match, I saw you running with 2-3 Pikmin without doing any plucks, very very dangerous. Single Pluck doesn't stall you at all, if at the least you should try to get one more whenever you can, very helpful. I also think a little work needs to be done with your SAF on your down B. I saw you try it once or twice but no successful attempts. Also remember roll call gives you pikmin order, which can help you keep track of which pikmin you are on.

Very good job!
agreed, except for a couple things. u play very solid and carefully. U utilize air canceling probably too the best of its ability that i've seen on youtube :). the only thing i had a problem with was that u used your fair a bit too much in my opinion. it seemed very predictable. Plus, I didn't see u throw much. A couple times i saw it, but it's a great distraction and it's good for approaching. Keep up the good work.
 

shrinkray21

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
724
Location
Brookings, SD
True has some incredibly great points in there - and by the way, looking forward to True's critique, doesn't take a genius to realize you know what you are talking about.

One area where I slightly disagree with True - he has an excellent point with the jab being underrated, but in most situations I prefer the ftilt or even more the dtilt - it lowers your hitbox and pops them up in the air so nair and fair become great options.
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
Hmm, I'll try using the tilts more, i agree they would be much more useful in not simply neutralizing spacing but giving you an advantage. However the biggest reason I have kept to the jab so far is for its speed and its ability to hit on either side of Olimar. My primary opponents are very adept at dodging and punishing missed attacks, and heavily favor speed characters, for instance the opponent I play most often mains MetaKnight. The lag times on his moves both startup and cooldown make olimar seem slow, horrendously so should he correctly dodge a FSmash or DSmash. The tilts are faster than the smashes obviously, but they provide an easily dodged one time hit box with not only an exposed side but still significant cooldown lag. Jab however can be used multiple times to cover either side of olimar, should his or my roll result in my facing the wrong direction at an opening. Also it cannot be spot dodged. Should he try to spot dodge, repeated jabs like any long multi hit attack cannot consistently be dodged and punished as another hit box is in the dodgers face as soon as the spot dodge ends. Thus having dodged the initial jab or two didn't actually prevent anything a jab still connected, and it certainly didn't allow him to maintain pressure or punish any lag or poor timing I may have.

If I had the correct timing to always punish my opponents as they come out of a dodge, and never attack into a dodge so that I could be punished, then I would certainly tilt my heart out. However I find jabs as a type of safety net as perhaps not the actual best overall option, but the most easy and reliable one. I don't naturally have the timing nor have I developed it yet to seek perfection, just working on removing weaknesses


-True
 

shrinkray21

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
724
Location
Brookings, SD
Hmm, I'll try using the tilts more, i agree they would be much more useful in not simply neutralizing spacing but giving you an advantage. However the biggest reason I have kept to the jab so far is for its speed and its ability to hit on either side of Olimar. My primary opponents are very adept at dodging and punishing missed attacks, and heavily favor speed characters, for instance the opponent I play most often mains MetaKnight. The lag times on his moves both startup and cooldown make olimar seem slow, horrendously so should he correctly dodge a FSmash or DSmash. The tilts are faster than the smashes obviously, but they provide an easily dodged one time hit box with not only an exposed side but still significant cooldown lag. Jab however can be used multiple times to cover either side of olimar, should his or my roll result in my facing the wrong direction at an opening. Also it cannot be spot dodged. Should he try to spot dodge, repeated jabs like any long multi hit attack cannot consistently be dodged and punished as another hit box is in the dodgers face as soon as the spot dodge ends. Thus having dodged the initial jab or two didn't actually prevent anything a jab still connected, and it certainly didn't allow him to maintain pressure or punish any lag or poor timing I may have.

If I had the correct timing to always punish my opponents as they come out of a dodge, and never attack into a dodge so that I could be punished, then I would certainly tilt my heart out. However I find jabs as a type of safety net as perhaps not the actual best overall option, but the most easy and reliable one. I don't naturally have the timing nor have I developed it yet to seek perfection, just working on removing weaknesses


-True
The fact that you play a MK on a regular basis makes the jab combo a very very good option. I play one once in a while and I have a hell of a time trying to keep control of the game with his priority and speed.

Also - embarrasing to ask this...but what is meant by air cancel with olly? I've seen it referred to a couple of times.
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
Honestly I'm not certain what DanGR meant by that. I would guess though it was reference to fast falling short hopped quick aerials, the DAir FAir and UAir all can be immediately fast fallen with no lag if you start the aerial immediately as your short hopping. This effectively allows you to start another move as soon as you touch the ground, giving that ground move the impression of coming out very quickly, due to the normal lag that follows landed aerials. The most easy and common example would be an SHFAir fast fallen as soon as Olimar reached the peak of the short hop and then immediately doing a FSmash upon landing. This technique effectively has a hit box out for a majority of the time and covers a lot of space and options in front of olimar. Again however that is only my guess as to what was meant by it, I did not notice particular great use of it in the videos, however nearly all the videos except yours and Knuttz's here are all very old and very elementary olimars, so DanGR is probably correct in saying this is the best olimar example of if posted yet.


-True
 

shrinkray21

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
724
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Brookings, SD
ohhh okay - I think i get it, I was checking this forum last night and I was like what is this tech they are referring to :)...back to topic though - i was very impressed with knuttz's olly. And if air cancel if the timing of aerial landing, then he did do it very well._
 

knuttz45

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
921
Location
Boise, ID
I thank you guys for all the comments on the vids. I will get the others up. They do look a little different with different edge guarding...or really lack of...My best matches are really minimal edge guarding, and i just throw crap over the edge...good players will turn the edge game around...and that can't happen to olimar...

MY Explination of Pikmin order:
I play BattleChrist all the time...he basically lives at my house. He know what pikmin I have, as well as I do, so as a further mindgame I do what you aren't supposed to do with the pikmin. I will smash or do an arial with a white one, if A. I'm too pressured, or B. He seems to be expecting the throw. I do admit I do need to manage them a little better, and sometimes i just get lazy and don't care though. Something I will work on.

Air Canceling?
Don't worry for those who don't know what it was called.....cause I didn't know what it was called..i know what it is...and in brawl compared to melee...this is huge because of the lack of l canceling...this is VERY easy for me to do with quite a few characters(brawl is slower)...but here is why I can do it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFY9_MBoZRA

I'll update this soon, i have to get some help with other vids...(from craztad)
 
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