Know My Power - A Meta Knight Match Up Thread

[CatcherAndTheRai]

KNOW MY POWER​

Hello fellow Meta Knights. My name is Rai. I have been lurking on smashboards for a long time looking at various match up discussions and such. I have been playing Project M for some time now. I have been speaking with my friend @Prynne and he has showed me his "Zelda Matchup Anthology". I also believe that these in-depth match up guide will be the easiest way for the PMDT to balance the game fully. Or, at least, for us, the community to help the PMDT make their job easier in balancing the game. I am in hope that all of you Meta Knight mains will help contribute in making this "guide" complete.

The goal of this is to write up an effective, simple, and to-the-point analysis on every character. Instead of just saying the match up is disadvantageous for Meta Knight, explain WHY it is difficult for him and we can learn how to overcome his weaknesses. If you have experience in a certain match up and would like to do an analysis on a specific character, let me know below.

The template is as follows:

Spoiler: Character Analysis Template

Favorability
Rate the Matchup on a scale of 1-5, 1 being it is very difficult for Meta Knight, 3 being the matchup is practically even, and 5 being that the matchup is fairly easy for Meta Knight.
1 - worse than 30/70
1.5 - 35/65
2 - 40/60
2.5 - 45/55
3 - 50/ 50
3.5 - 55/45
4 - 60/40
4.5 - 65/35
5 - 70/30 or greater
The first number represents Meta Knight and the second number represents the opponent.
Good Stages
A list of, at the very least, 4 stages that will benefit Meta Knight in this matchup, and give him an advantage, however slight it may be.
Bad Stages
A list of any stages that you must never go to against this character, for you will be at a disadvantage, unless otherwise specified.

General Strategy
What are you going to do from the moment you start the match to the moment you end it, and how? You are permitted to go overboard in how much you write, but remember that we are on a deadline.

Things to look out for
Will your opponent expect you to DI a certain way on a throw? Does your opponent have a trap that you need to be weary of? Things of this nature are good to put in here. Sometimes there won't be many, but every character should have at least 3 solid things that are not immediately visible on the surface that can be dangerous.

Videos
If applicable, a good video that shows two players of substantial skill level displaying the matchup at hand. Zelda doesn't have to be winning it, but a visual representation will be helpful.
Attribution
Anyone and everyone involved in the making of the writeup, including all sources.

Once a submission has been posted, it will be reviewed by all of you and edited accordingly. Once we have a general agreement on that said analysis it will be added to this post! Hopefully we will eventually get it completed with all of your help! (EDIT: I don't know how to get rid of the multiple spoiler tags...)

The following consists of the full cast of Project M.
The WHITE indicates that no one has selected that character.
The RED indicates that the character is completed.
The GREEN indicates that the character is in the process of being completed.

Bowser
Captain Falcon - Narelex
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Falco
Fox
Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
Ike
Ivysaur
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Kirby
Link
Lucario
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Marth - Narelex & Jelly
Meta Knight
Mewtwo
Ness
Olimar - Steelguttey
Peach
Pikachu
Pit
ROB - ConeZ
Roy
Samus
Sheik
Snake
Sonic
Squirtle
Toon Link
Wario
Wolf
Yoshi
Zelda - Rai
Zero Suit Samus​

BowserCaptain FalconCharizardKing DededeDiddy KongDonkey KongFalcoFoxGanondorfIce ClimbersIkeIvysaurJigglypuffKirbyLinkLucarioLucasLuigiMarioMarthMeta KnightMewtwoMr. Game & WatchNessOlimarPeachPikachuPitR.O.B.RoySamusSheikSnakeSonicSquirtleToon LinkWarioWolfYoshiZeldaZero Suit Samus

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

Reserved in case ever needed later

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

I'll start of with this I guess since it was my idea. I have a fair bit of experience in the Zelda match up, and this is what I came up with!

Spoiler

Character:


Favorability
3.5
Good Stages
Yoshi's Story (Melee)

This small close quarters stage is perfect for MK. He can micro-space here. His back air kills extremely early, as well as zelda's. This is an even stage but, in my opinion slightly in Metaknight's favor because of the small space for Zelda to work with.​

Wario Ware

The same as YS. MK kills SUPER early on this stage. You would be surprised. You just cannot let Zelda get control on the base of the stage.​

Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

This stage's wonky rigid design with the ever-changing slanted platform messes up with Zelda's shenanigans. The platform is a great way to avoid Din's placement on the ground. It also appeals for optimal combo potential. Edge-guarding on this stage is pretty simple because the shy guy platform will sometimes allow you to go out farther with Back-airs.​

Bad Stages
Final Destination

Flat, long stages are a big problem for MK in this match up in particular. There is no where for MK to escape Zelda's enormous punish game. You would be crazy to go to this stage. This is my go-to ban against Zelda, unless they know me and the stages I personally don't like, too well.​

Pokemon Stadium 2

This stage is the same applied to Final Destination, with two convenient platforms. Zelda excels at controlling stage on this map. B-throw kills MK super early with the smaller side blast zones, as well as kicks. MK's sweet spotted Up-B kills relatively early on this stage as well.​

Norfair

Awful stage for MK in this match up. WAY too much room for Zelda to move around in. The platforms do not favor us in any way. The blast zones are huge, the base platform is huge, and you can get caught under the stage. I just don't feel like this is a very strong stage for MK in this match up specifically.​

Smashville

I feel like this has similar traits to Pokemon Stadium 2. Except one moving platform and not two static ones. Recovering on this stage is a pain against Zelda. The flat base is difficult to move around because of Din's placement.​

General Strategy
Start of Match:

Right out of the get-go, I instantly dash towards Zelda, expecting a Din's placement. Right from this point it is a 50:50. If she Din's, continue dashing in for the grab.(I am pretty sure is guaranteed if she trys to place one down.) If she starts movement games, begin to do the same. You're ground movement exceeds hers tenfold.​

Neutral Game:

You need to out manouver Zelda and wait for her to throw out a move and go in for the punish. Din's mitigates your movement on stage. So, hopefully, there are platforms to manuever onto and around. An RAR B-air or an U-air > an F-tilt one will catch any of Zelda's OoS options usually. You also cross up N-air, but watch out for the B-air out of shield.​

Din's:

THIS THING IS A B*TCH. We have no move in our arsenal that can get rid of Din's (I.E. A disjointed move like Wario's N-air) The ONLY move we have that clanks with Din's is our Dash Attack. And only when the Din's is on the low, approximately on the ground. If it is placed around MK's cape collar, WE CANNOT CLANK WITH DASH ATTACK. This is the only reason, in my opinion, that this match up is slightly disadvantage. This little ball of flames reduces our momentum, movement, and our overall way to get in on Zelda.

The best way to deal with Din's, as stated by both @ Narelex and @ BirdyBirds on two different occasions: "you just dash dance just outside her effective range, but close enough that she can't complete din's animation. if she doesn't din's, she doesn't get more stage control, if she does dins, it's a free grab/punish. This should really reduce the amount of dins she can place and put plenty of pressure on her."
Make sure that you don't over extend into her kick range,
​

Punish Game:
One very interesting thing to note is that Meta Knight is one of the only characters in the game that can combo Zelda. Not only that, be we have kill setups. D-Tilt > Up-B works at higher percentages. When Zelda is recovering, don't be afraid to just go out and B-air or N- air her. The farore's wind is able to be hit until she disappears. If you do trade, it is worth it. In this match up, you want the lead as fast as possible because trying to take that lead back against a Zelda is like climbing a mountain.
Things to look out for
Ok so I will try to explain this as simply as possible. When Zelda grabs you DI for the F-throw and B-throw by holding the same direction that she is facing. From there, if she D-throws, DI behind her immidiately. Zelda's D-throw animation is long enough to react to and switch your DI up. If you DI the D-throw correctly, it will become a tech chase situation. If you DI incorrectly, you will either get regrabbed, U-smashed, or F-tilted. In my experience in this match up, being in a tech chase situation is much better that getting double U-smashed > N-air/Kick.
She has a dirty combo game on us. The only struggle she has is getting in on us because we can run away from her all day long. Her combo game is kind of like a flow chart from what i've been exposed to. Jab > Nayru's. F-tilt > Up-smash. Up-smash > N-air/Kick. One last thing to look out for is when you are on the back side of Zelda. She can get two B-airs out in one short hop, or do a kick then waveland. This is very dangerous. If you are shielding a B-air, wait for the second one to hit the do a buffer roll away with the c-stick.
TL;DR – Don't get grabbed. Dont get hit.
Videos
If you guys would like to see me and my training partner, Prynne, play, I can record a set of us so you can see all of this information in motion!
Attribution

 

[9bit]

vs MK

50:50

Pretty even, I'd say

 

[Narelex]

I have extensive experience against Falcon and would gladly do the MU if needed.

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

I have extensive experience against Falcon and would gladly do the MU if needed.

Awesome! I will put you down for that match up. Can't wait to see what you say about it!

 

[steelguttey]

rng ranger reporting for duty

Spoiler: olimar

Favorability
3
Good Stages
Castle Siege
this isnt exactly a great stage for meta knight but this is an awful stage for olimar. the slanted ground disables side b most of the time, i ban it very often.
Delfino's Secret, Dreamland 64, Yoshi's Brawl
these kinda go hand in hand because theyre big stages you can recover really well on and i cant. gimps happen very often here and its hard to gimp mk.
Bad Stages
Pokemon Stadium 2, Green Hill Zone, Yoshi's Melee, Warioware

these are all just blast zone preferences except warioware, which i love the platforms on. fair kills super early on all of these stages, as does fsmash. the only stage where this rule is different is ps2, which purple usmash will kill very very early on. other than that, nothing too special here.

General Strategy
this is assuming that you're asking what i want to do, as the olimar player.

neutral:

generally, im throwing pikmin. if i have no purples, you can rush me down but if i see youre doing that im gonna try to fsmash or fair you and create space so i can get a purple. but generally, when i throw pikmin at you, nair them. if i get a pikmin on you, make sure when you nair it off you are not in range for me to punish you. if you do, im gonna punish you. i'll get to punish game later. anyway, when youre in on me im gonna be focusing on getting you off me. watch out for things like pivot fsmash, usmash and nair. olimar has very good pressure options. mk is good at converting from his great ground neutral game into his air punish game, and olimar can deal with that quite well. his options with dealing with pressure are generally horizontal and directly above him, so when hes getting pressured diagonally above him he cant do alot. mk can pressure that area with fair so try to float in that space.

something to pay attention here is olimar's pikmin. im not gonna go through a gauntlet of saying what the pikmin do but generally, if a white side b gets on you, immediately nair and get it off. if you dont, youre gonna take 52% to 62%. if he has a blue he has the second longest grab in the game, if he has a yellow, he can cover that diagonal option like i mentioned before with oos fair which comes out frame 6 including jump squat. if he has red and nothing else, make sure he doesnt combo you. if he does hes gonna be doing a whole lot of damage. purple side b is a "real projectile" as it has knockback and doesnt stick to you. if you shield it or get hit by it while youre on the ground im getting a free grab. the things you really need to look out for are yellow and purple, the others you can kinda react to. purple fair is a frame 4 aerial that can kill at 60% center stage depending on the stage. watch out for that.

punish:

punish on mk's side is pretty standard. olimar is dead center in terms of fall speed and weight, so comboing him isnt anything extraordinary. he is pretty tiny, but you have a big sword so you wont miss him with much. his tech roll is super awful, so dthrow tech chases work pretty well. something to remember is that i am awful coming down on you. i dont have options other than a random ass dair and that **** is slow and easy to punish. what im gonna try to do is fancy stuff like b reverse whistle to throw you off and land safely but mostly, im dead when im above you. just uair me.

on olimar's side, you get usmashed when i grab you. alot. you got your weight buffed, but youre still pretty light and your fall speed is still fast. so i grab you and usmash alot. when i think the combo is about to end, im gonna end the combo with fair always and then stagger side b's on you to reset the situation in my favor. i can continue punishes this way by forcing you to keep hitting pikmin off you and me punishing you for hitting them off.

edgeguarding:

everyone edgeguards olimar for free, still. jetpack kinda sucks. something to remember is the aforementioned down b b-reverse to mess up your edgeguards but if i do that once that means im going low. neutral b is somewhat of a 3rd jump even tho it gets you no vertical height, it goes pretty far horizontally. the jetpack has a very small hitbox inside of him that goes a very small distance and can be angled only a little. the grab box isnt anything special. just nair him over and over again and you should be fine.

when olimar edgeguards, even though you have a whole lot of options in terms of recovering, they all suck. the nerf that mk got where he loses his jumps after getting hit out of anything really hurts him in terms of recovering. nothing you have has a special hitbox, glide sucks, side b is slow, nado is slow, down b is short and predictable, etc. watch out for fsmash when youre recovering low, it keeps its hitbox all the way down and has a pretty nice angle to it.

Things to look out for
uthrow and dthrow are different, dthrow is a tech chase throw and uthrow is a combo throw. if you di towards me and i dthrow, i get usmash combos, if you di towards me and i uthrow, i get a bair. if you di i away from me and i uthrow, i get an usmash or a forward air, if you di away from me and i dthrow i get a tech chase. nothing much to say here.

Videos
nah

Attribution
me

 

[Narelex]

Captain Falcon

Its worth nothing that if I mention a roller-coaster it just means an up-air chain followed by a sweetspot shuttle loop (up-b)

Spoiler: Captain Falcon

Favorability
4
Good Stages
Flat stages with a lack of platforms and large blastzones are good to pick vs Falcon in this MU

Final Destination:
The lack of platforms limits Falcon's movement to dashdancing and jumps, which means any approaches he takes will have to be pretty straight forward against MK. The larger blastzones mean MK lives for much longer then Falcon, it also means edgeguarding Falcon as MK is a simple affair, One move offstage should kill and no platforms to tech onto means that MK can tech chase and combo Falcon for as long as he can manage it. Has more space then the average CP against Falcon but the flat nature and larger blastzones offsets it

Dreamland:
The massive size of the blastzones, mean that MK will live much longer then Falcon here due to his superior recovery. The platforms aid certain combos by refreshing MK's jumps, MK has the movement on tri plats to compete with Falcon's. The tri-plat isn't close enough to the edge for Falcon to get past MK's edgeguard consistently. Falcon has more platform movement here, but the titanic size of the blastzones is a bigger disadvantage for the Captain. Your main objective on this stage as MK is to get him offstage and gimp/edgeguard him since offscreen kills will be difficult for either party.

Smashville
Basically the same reasons as FD barring the moving platform, The sides are closer here then the other CP's but he still has trouble getting in due to MK's Transcendent disjoint. The platform both hinders and aids your combos on each other since it can be used to refresh jumps and tech onto. Its still incredibly easy to edgeguard/gimp falcon since 3/4 of MK's aerials are good at it. It is possible to take Falcon off the top of this stage if you can get a Roller-coaster on him as MK. Falcon's knee is more potent here but he will find it hard to land if MK play's properly.

Bad Stages
MK can beat Falcon on any stage but these are the hardest to do it on.
Close side blast zones and large stages with platforms are trouble in this MU.


Norfair
This stage is massive Falcon has a ton of room to run around and Platforms to aid his movement even more. it becomes a giant game of bait and punish between the two. The top is close but both of them usually die off the sides or bottom. The Platforms can interrupt or aid MK's up-air combos due to how high they can be at times. MK can still edgeguard Falcon efficiently but its harder for MK to catch him here.

Pokemon Stadium 2
Yikes, This stage is large and Falcon has room to groove. The blastzones are fairly close to the stage so Falcon's knee kills MK early. Falcon is faster in the air and on the ground so he can outmanoeuvre MK here. The ceiling doesn't matter too much due to their fallspeed's but MK can get a roller-coaster on Falcon easier here. Overall Falcon has an easier time killing MK here since there's not much space between the stage and the side blastzones and MK prefers to edgeguard/gimp Falcon.

Distant Planet
The Ultimate MK Counterpick as Falcon.

Combines everything that MK does not like in this MU. Lots of platforms, lots of space, close side blast zones. Falcon has a wall to jump off of and the leaves to aid his recovery options. Knee will kill MK easily as long as you connect with it near the sides. Like Norfair and PS2 becomes a huge game of bait and punish between the two.

Ban Immediately when playing as MK


General Strategy
MK Perspective
You want to immediately close distance against Falcon on every stage. But you don't want to attack him unless he does something dumb or punishable. MK can win the trade against most of Falcon's moves due to transcendent priority and better frame data on moves. Falcon has a similar Dashdance to Metaknight but both are extremely good. If you try to attack first he will usually avoid your move and attempt to punish with an aerial or a grab. If Falcon is on the ground the two main things he will go for are Jabs (frame 3) and JC grabs (Frame 7). You want to try to threaten him with your presence so he feels the need to jump. Once he's in the air he's a sitting duck against MK our disjointed and extremely fast upward moves mean comboing him once he's above us/in the air is a breeze. Once the Upair string starts you try to put him offstage as soon as possible. Then you use your tools to edgeguard him after you grab the ledge. 90% of the time you Nair since it covers everything around MK with the disjoint and it will beat both of Falcon's recovery options.

Falcon is also extremely easy to Techchase due to his bad techroll, so if he ever whiffs at low percent's try to get a techchase started on him with a throw, then lead it into a combo to get him offstage. If Falcon gets a combo started on you try to DI away or frame 3 Nair to escape if its not airtight. If he's at a high percent and whiffs a move with noticeable endlag IDC him immediately.

Falcon has to do much more work then MK in this MU.



Things to look out for
Things Falcon has to watch for

• MK's Upsmash is extremely potent against Fastfallers as if they don't SDI it correctly it chains into itself at lower to mid percent's then into a Bair that will put Falcon offstage.
• At high percent's (depending on DI) its fairly easy for MK to upthrow Falcon into a Dimensional cape which will kill him if it connects.
• Mk's Uptilt is an extremely powerful vertical disjoint do not try to fall on top of him if he has the ability to put one out.
• MK's grabs are all extremely powerful against fastfallers and especially Falcon so try to not get grabbed.
• If you try to jump at MK with aerials he will stuff your approach hard if not spaced correctly.
  
• MK's non sword moves have the unique property of being able to clank with aerials (Dash attack, Getup attack)
• Understand how MK's sword works, Its transcendent which means you cannot clank with it PERIOD
• MK's Instant Dimensional Cape (IDC) Is extremely fast and powerful but with noticeable endlag. If you whiff at high percent's or tech roll predictably expect to eat one of these. However if MK whiffs the IDC punish ASAP.
• Watch out for an IDC midair if you DI away from his upair at mid-percent's.
• Nair/Upsmash OOS
• His frame 3 Nair interrupting combos that are not airtight
• Interrupting MK when he's recovering with a special move will steal all his jumps
• MK's Dtilt is a combination of Marth/Roy's The tip pokes away and the rest pops up for combos/finishers
• MK's Side-B is a potent tech chase tool vs Falcon as it pops up for a combo starter/finisher

Things MK has to watch for

• Tech Chases, MK and Falcon both have bad techrolls so if Falcon gets a downthrow on MK he can tech chase for awhile with grabs and stomps.
• Combo's out of Upthrow, Falcon has a very potent Combo game out of his Upthrow and has a fairly easy time chaining moves together if he is given the chance.
• Falcon's Nair has quite a bit of reach if spaced properly
• THE KNEE, Falcons most dangerous move when playing against him, If he connects with one of these at mid-high percent's expect to most likely die. It takes a bit to come out but is quite beefy and the weak hitbox can be comboed into the strong one. Upthrow leads into it (not as easily as 3.5 though) so watch out.
• Reversed special Moves, can catch you by surprise and lead to combos or finish you off.
• Falcon's highspeed and great movement tools, It means that if you try to catch Falcon as MK instead of waiting for him to act first he can usually evade and punish with a grab or combo.

Videos
https://youtu.be/xL7bMG0eNK0?t=3m10s -Infinity (MK) vs Captain Birdman (D3/Falcon)
Will add more later.

Attribution
Myself, Catcherandtherai, AozoraX, Riceykins and Caffeine

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

Captain Falcon

Its worth nothing that if I mention a roller-coaster it just means an upair chain followed by a sweetspot shuttle loop (up-b)

Spoiler: Captain Falcon

Favorability
5
Good Stages
Flat stages with a lack of platforms and large blastzones are good to pick vs Falcon

Final Destination:
The lack of platforms limits Falcon's movement to dashdancing and jumps which means any approaches he takes will have to be horizontal against MK. The larger blastzones mean MK lives for much longer then Falcon, it also means edgeguarding Falcon as MK is a simple affair, One move offstage should kill and no platforms to tech onto means that MK can tech chase and combo Falcon for as long as he can manage it. Has more space then the average CP against Falcon but the flat nature and larger blastzones offsets it

Dreamland:
The Massive size of the blastzones mean that MK will live much longer then Falcon here due to his superior recovery. The platforms aid certain combos and MK has the movement on tri plats to compete with Falcon's. The tri-plat isn't close enough to the edge for Falcon to get past MK's edgeguard consistently. Falcon has more platform movement here, but the titanic size of the blastzones is a bigger disadvantage for the Captain. Your main objective on this stage as MK is to get him offstage and gimp/edgeguard him since offscreen kills will be difficult for either party.

Smashville
Basically the same reasons as FD barring the moving platform, The sides are closer here then the other CP's but he still has trouble getting in due to MK's Transcendent disjoint. The platform both hinders and aids your combos on each other. Its still incredibly easy to edgeguard/gimp falcon since 3/4 of MK's aerials are good at it. It is possible to take Falcon off the top of this stage if you can get a Roller-coaster combo on him as MK. Falcon's knee is more potent here but he will find it hard to land if MK play's properly.
Bad Stages
MK can beat Falcon on any stage but these are the hardest to do it on.
Close side blast zones and large stages with platforms are trouble in this MU.


Norfair
This stage is massive Falcon has a ton of room to run around and Platforms to aid his movement even more. it becomes a giant game of bait and punish between the two. The top is close but both of them usually die off the sides or bottom. The Platforms can interrupt MK's combos due to how high they can be at times. MK can still edgeguard Falcon hard but its harder for MK to catch him here.

Pokemon Stadium 2
Yikes, This stage is large and Falcon has room to groove. The blastzones are fairly close to the stage so Falcon's knee kills MK early. Falcon is faster in the air and on the ground so he can outmanoeuvre MK here. The ceiling doesn't matter too much due to their fallspeed's but MK can get a roller-coaster on Falcon easier here. Overall Falcon has an easier time killing MK here since there's not much space between the stage and the side blastzones and MK prefers to edgeguard/gimp Falcon.

Distant Planet
The ultimate MK Counterpick as Falcon. Combines everything that MK does not like in this MU. Lots of platforms, lots of space, close side blast zones. Falcon has a wall to jump off of and the leaves to aid his recovery options. Knee will kill MK easily as long as you connect with it near the sides. Like Norfair and PS2 becomes a huge game of bait and punish between the two. BAN IMMEDIATELY AS MK


General Strategy
MK Perspective
You want to immediately close distance against Falcon on every stage. But you don't want to attack him unless he does something dumb or punishable. MK can win the trade against most of Falcon's moves due to transcendent priority. Falcon has a slightly better Dashdance then Metaknight but both are extremely good. If you try to attack first he will usually avoid your move and attempt to punish with an aerial or a grab. If Falcon is on the ground the two main things he will go for are Jabs (frame 3) and JC grabs (Frame 7). You want to try to threaten him with your presence so he feels the need to jump. Once he's in the air he's a sitting duck against MK our disjointed and extremely fast upward moves mean comboing him once he's above us/in the air is a breeze. Once the Upair string starts you try to put him offstage as soon as possible. Then you use your tools to edgeguard him after you grab the ledge. 90% of the time you Nair since it covers everything around MK with the unclankable disjoint and it will beat both of Falcon's recovery options.

Falcon is also extremely easy to Techchase due to his bad techroll so if he ever whiffs at low percent's try to get a techchase started on him with a throw then lead it into a combo to get him offstage. If Falcon gets a combo started on you try to use one of your multijumps or frame 3 Nair to escape if its not airtight. If he's at a high percent and whiffs a move with noticeable endlag IDC him immediately.

Falcon has to do much more work then MK in this MU.



Things to look out for
Things Falcon has to watch for

• MK's Upsmash is extremely potent against Fastfallers as if they don't SDI it correctly it chains into itself at lower to mid percent's then into a Bair that will put Falcon offstage.
• At high percent's (depending on DI) its fairly easy for MK to upthrow Falcon into a Dimensional cape which will kill him if it connects.
• MK's grabs are all extremely powerful against fastfallers and especially Falcon so try to not get grabbed.
• Understand how MK's sword works, Its transcendent which means you cannot clank with it PERIOD which means if you try to jump at him with aerials he will stuff your approach hard.
• MK's Instant Dimensional Cape (IDC) Is extremely fast and powerful but with noticeable endlag. If you whiff at high percent's expect to eat one of these. However if MK whiffs the IDC punish ASAP.
• Nair/Upsmash OOS
• Nair interrupting combos that are not airtight
• Interrupting MK when he's recovering with a special move will steal all his jumps

Things MK has to watch for

• Tech Chases, MK and Falcon both have bad techrolls so if Falcon gets a downthrow on MK he can tech chase for awhile.
• Combo's out of Upthrow, Falcon has a very potent Combo game out of his upthrow and has a fairly easy time chaining moves together if he is given the chance.
• THE KNEE, Falcons most dangerous move when playing against him If he connects with one of these at mid-high percent's expect to most likely die. It takes a bit to come out but is quite beefy and the weak hitbox can be comboed into the strong one
• Reversed special Moves, reverse Falcon kick/Raptorboost/Falcon punch can catch you by surprise and lead to combos or finish you off.
• Falcon's highspeed and great movement tools, It means that if you try to catch Falcon as MK instead of waiting for him to act first he can usually evade and punish with a grab or combo.

Videos
https://youtu.be/xL7bMG0eNK0?t=3m10s -Infinity (MK) vs Captain Birdman (D3/Falcon)
Will add more later.

Attribution
Myself, Catcherandtherai, AozoraX, Riceykins and Caffeine

Very good write up. Super in-depth and organized. I just dont think the match up is 5. I would say maybe a 3.5-4. Four at the MAX. There is no way that Meta Knight has that solid of a match up ratio against a character who can tech chase, combo to death, and has superior ground movement. Everything else is perfect, but there are just too many solid evidence for Falcon for it to be that BAD of a match up for him. In a ratio setting I'd say it is a 60:40 in Meta Knight's favor. Which in this sense of ratio building is a 3.5 - 4, in my opinion. Also, against falcons air combos you should be DI ing away and saving all of your jumps until you are out of the fray! Trying to jump in the midst of his combos WILL get you killed.

Those are the only things i would change about the write up everything else is super good my dude!

 

[steelguttey]

what about meeee

 

[Narelex]

Very good write up. Super in-depth and organized. I just dont think the match up is 5. I would say maybe a 3.5-4. Four at the MAX. There is no way that Meta Knight has that solid of a match up ratio against a character who can tech chase, combo to death, and has superior ground movement. Everything else is perfect, but there are just too many solid evidence for Falcon for it to be that BAD of a match up for him. In a ratio setting I'd say it is a 60:40 in Meta Knight's favor. Which in this sense of ratio building is a 3.5 - 4, in my opinion. Also, against falcons air combos you should be DI ing away and saving all of your jumps until you are out of the fray! Trying to jump in the midst of his combos WILL get you killed.

Those are the only things i would change about the write up everything else is super good my dude!

Didn't mean to put it as a 5 that was a mistake its a 4 for sure though
Also forgot to mention our Dtilt's properties.

Edited my post to reflect these facts.

 

[BirdyBirds]

one thing about the zelda matchup and din's. you just dash dance just outside her effective range, but close enough that she can't complete din's animation. if she doesn't din's, she doesn't get more stage control, if she does dins, it's a free grab/punish. This should really reduce the amount of dins she can place and put plenty of pressure on her..

 

[Narelex]

one thing about the zelda matchup and din's. you just dash dance just outside her effective range, but close enough that she can't complete din's animation. if she doesn't din's, she doesn't get more stage control, if she does dins, it's a free grab/punish. This should really reduce the amount of dins she can place and put plenty of pressure on her..

I mentioned this to Rai when we were talking elsewhere. I feel like he might be overblowing the Din's a little. I might have to take my own crack at the Zelda MU since I have a large amount of experience in it as well. I personally feel its slightly in MK's favour but I'll get to that if I take my stab at it.

More feedback=better list

Don't be afraid to contribute everyone.

 

[ConeZ]

I'll start of with this I guess since it was my idea. I have a fair bit of experience in the Zelda match up, and this is what I came up with!

Spoiler

Character:


Favorability
3 (Slightly Zelda's Favor)
Good Stages
Yoshi's Story (Melee)

This small close quarters stage is perfect for MK. He can micro-space here. His back air kills extremely early, as well as zelda's. This is an even stage but, in my opinion slightly in Metaknight's favor because of the small space for Zelda to work with.​

Wario Ware

The same as YS. MK kills SUPER early on this stage. You would be surprised. You just cannot let Zelda get control on the base of the stage.​

Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

This stage's wonky rigid design with the ever-changing slanted platform messes up with Zelda's shenanigans. The platform is a great way to avoid Din's placement on the ground. It also appeals for optimal combo potential. Edge-guarding on this stage is pretty simple because the shy guy platform will sometimes allow you to go out farther with Back-airs.​

Bad Stages
Final Destination

Flat, long stages are a big problem for MK in this match up in particular. There is no where for MK to escape Zelda's enormous punish game. You would be crazy to go to this stage. This is my go-to ban against Zelda, unless they know me and the stages I personally don't like, too well.​

Pokemon Stadium 2

This stage is the same applied to Final Destination, with two convenient platforms. Zelda excels at controlling stage on this map. B-throw kills MK super early with the smaller side blast zones, as well as kicks. MK's sweet spotted Up-B kills relatively early on this stage as well.​

Norfair

Awful stage for MK in this match up. WAY too much room for Zelda to move around in. The platforms do not favor us in any way. The blast zones are huge, the base platform is huge, and you can get caught under the stage. I just don't feel like this is a very strong stage for MK in this match up specifically.​

Smashville

I feel like this has similar traits to Pokemon Stadium 2. Except one moving platform and not two static ones. Recovering on this stage is a pain against Zelda. The flat base is difficult to move around because of Din's placement.​

General Strategy
Start of Match:

Right out of the get-go, I instantly dash towards Zelda, expecting a Din's placement. Right from this point it is a 50:50. If she Din's, continue dashing in for the grab.(I am pretty sure is guaranteed if she trys to place one down.) If she starts movement games, begin to do the same. You're ground movement exceeds hers tenfold.​

Neutral Game:

You need to out manouver Zelda and wait for her to throw out a move and go in for the punish. Din's mitigates your movement on stage. So, hopefully, there are platforms to manuever onto and around. An RAR B-air or an U-air > an F-tilt one will catch any of Zelda's OoS options usually. You also cross up N-air, but watch out for the B-air out of shield.​

Din's:

THIS THING IS A B*TCH. We have no move in our arsenal that can get rid of Din's (I.E. A disjointed move like Wario's N-air) The ONLY move we have that clanks with Din's is our Dash Attack. And only when the Din's is on the low, approximately on the ground. If it is placed around MK's cape collar, WE CANNOT CLANK WITH DASH ATTACK. This is the only reason, in my opinion, that this match up is slightly disadvantage. This little ball of flames reduces our momentum, movement, and our overall way to get in on Zelda.​

Punish Game:
One very interesting thing to note is that Meta Knight is one of the only characters in the game that can combo Zelda. Not only that, be we have kill setups. D-Tilt > Up-B works at higher percentages. When Zelda is recovering, don't be afraid to just go out and B-air or N- air her. The farore's wind is able to be hit until she disappears. If you do trade, it is worth it. In this match up, you want the lead as fast as possible because trying to take that lead back against a Zelda is like climbing a mountain.
Things to look out for
Ok so I will try to explain this as simply as possible. When Zelda grabs you DI for the F-throw and B-throw by holding the same direction that she is facing. From there, if she D-throws, DI behind her immidiately. Zelda's D-throw animation is long enough to react to and switch your DI up. If you DI the D-throw correctly, it will become a tech chase situation. If you DI incorrectly, you will either get regrabbed, U-smashed, or F-tilted. In my experience in this match up, being in a tech chase situation is much better that getting double U-smashed > N-air/Kick.
She has a dirty combo game on us. The only struggle she has is getting in on us because we can run away from her all day long. Her combo game is kind of like a flow chart from what i've been exposed to. Jab > Nayru's. F-tilt > Up-smash. Up-smash > N-air/Kick. One last thing to look out for is when you are on the back side of Zelda. She can get two B-airs out in one short hop, or do a kick then waveland. This is very dangerous. If you are shielding a B-air, wait for the second one to hit the do a buffer roll away with the c-stick.
TL;DR – Don't get grabbed. Dont get hit.
Videos
If you guys would like to see me and my training partner, Prynne, play, I can record a set of us so you can see all of this information in motion!
Attribution

I played friendlies with a Zelda and played another Zelda in a tournament this week, so a lot of my knowledge is maybe less extensive, but I do have a few things to add, and I am sure a few others have said it somewhere, but for serious, learning to powershield/ WD OOS is so good.

I am mostly replying bc you acted like there is no way around Din's, and I think Din's is actually almost a non-factor for Metaknight, unless they use it for edge-guarding, but in neutral, I generally just ignore it by rushing when she throws it out, waitng/ baiting it out or running into it and powershielding when she moves out of range just to get it off of the field.
My biggest problem against Zelda was overextending combos bc I am still learning a lot of the hitstun stuff with MK xD

I get Lightning Kicked too much

 

[Narelex]

I played friendlies with a Zelda and played another Zelda in a tournament this week, so a lot of my knowledge is maybe less extensive, but I do have a few things to add, and I am sure a few others have said it somewhere, but for serious, learning to powershield/ WD OOS is so good.

I am mostly replying bc you acted like there is no way around Din's, and I think Din's is actually almost a non-factor for Metaknight, unless they use it for edge-guarding, but in neutral, I generally just ignore it by rushing when she throws it out, waitng/ baiting it out or running into it and powershielding when she moves out of range just to get it off of the field.
My biggest problem against Zelda was overextending combos bc I am still learning a lot of the hitstun stuff with MK xD

I get Lightning Kicked too much

Did you give the Falcon MU a read? If so what did you think.

 

[ConeZ]

Did you give the Falcon MU a read? If so what did you think.

Well, admittedly the Falcon players I have played with are even or better than I am, but I have learned a few things about the matchup.

1) Up throw to knee is guaranteed. It sucks, but Fatality (one of GA's best players) confirmed it with me on Friday, so don't get grabbed at high %, or you will die.
2) SHFFL nair seems to outspace us, as might have been expected, but still.

^^^^
Just wanted to emphasize those two things xD
Seriously though, I think this matchup is probably a lot closer to even than a lot of people think. Our punish game on Falcon is sick, but so is his against us. If you give MK an opening, Falcon might die, but the same holds true for him, and the whole U-throw to knee thing (which despite nerfs against the cast in general, I am convinced is guaranteed against us) really has me feeling the matchup is even as opposed to favorable. or at the very least 55-45 in our favor. (Though I'd like to say closer to 52-48)

Edit: If anyone doesn't think uthrow > knee on MK is guaranteed, please post your evidence, and tell me how to get out of it.

 

[ConeZ]

Now on a separate post (sorry for double posting), I wanna know what people think of the Luigi/ Peach MUs?

I feel like the Luigi MU problems I have been having stem more from my still learning MK than it actually being a problem MU, but the Peach MU just feels bad, and I don't know how to approach it.

Also, I'd like to add that I, personally have had problems against floaty mid tiers historically, so it might be a personal thing xD

 

[Narelex]

Well, admittedly the Falcon players I have played with are even or better than I am, but I have learned a few things about the matchup.

1) Up throw to knee is guaranteed. It sucks, but Fatality (one of GA's best players) confirmed it with me on Friday, so don't get grabbed at high %, or you will die.
2) SHFFL nair seems to outspace us, as might have been expected, but still.

^^^^
Just wanted to emphasize those two things xD
Seriously though, I think this matchup is probably a lot closer to even than a lot of people think. Our punish game on Falcon is sick, but so is his against us. If you give MK an opening, Falcon might die, but the same holds true for him, and the whole U-throw to knee thing (which despite nerfs against the cast in general, I am convinced is guaranteed against us) really has me feeling the matchup is even as opposed to favorable. or at the very least 55-45 in our favor. (Though I'd like to say closer to 52-48)

Edit: If anyone doesn't think uthrow > knee on MK is guaranteed, please post your evidence, and tell me how to get out of it.

Falcon has an exceedingly hard time getting Grabs in this MU but I did mention the combos out of upthrow which usually end in a knee.

If he's in the air he's made a mistake just DD to avoid the Nair and punish his choice. if he's above you with the Nair he's going to get destroyed by your disjoints. Falcon is a MU that only gets easier the better you get at MK

Haven't played Peach too much this patch but the little I've played you need to use your superior speed to Outmanoeuvre her. her WD and groundspeed sucks so she can't bait anything. Watch out for that Dsmash though. She's floaty so off the top kills are good. WD OOS for turnips.

Luigi Is annoying, takes time to learn it but his Nair can't reach underhim so make sure to use upairs frequently. Never look forward to fighting him but he's not a bad MU for MK.

 

[Sadface]

I have a lot of Exp vs (# of players):

GaW (one)
Ic's (one)
Falcon (two)
Marth (three)
Pit (one)
link (two)
Sonic (two)

some exp vs (# of players):

Peach (one)
ness (one)
DK (two)
Fox (four)

Most of the players have been / are ranked so I got some quality behind the experience at least.

 

[Sadface]

Now on a separate post (sorry for double posting), I wanna know what people think of the Luigi/ Peach MUs?

I feel like the Luigi MU problems I have been having stem more from my still learning MK than it actually being a problem MU, but the Peach MU just feels bad, and I don't know how to approach it.

Also, I'd like to add that I, personally have had problems against floaty mid tiers historically, so it might be a personal thing xD

I think mk/luigi is either even or in mk favor. I haven't played it in 3.6 but in 3.5 you could punish their side b onstage with a full DC and it would kill so early from center stage. bair also kills luigi side b recovery. U tilt destroys his nair when he tries to combo break. New D throw is probably good.

I hate the Peach MU but thats partially because our best player is a peach main in melee. Turnips are hard to deal with if she manages to get space to pull one, since we can't clank with them. You need to catch them and mks item throw is meh iirc. D tilting her is a nightmare similar to how roy has to know when the right time to d tilt is. Peach combos fast fallers and semi fast fallers well and she is hard to edgegaurd if the peach is smart. Her float cancel pressure means you can't block much vs her, you have to DD. Her dash attack is annoying if you go in the air. Our disjoint is useful but I find it hard to start something when she can sometimes nair out of stuff. Full hop double fair and short hop double up air are probably best to keep out her FC fairs.

 

[Boiko]

It's helpful to list the player that you have played against and link VODs. I can't possibly fathom how Zelda beats MK, it's so difficult for her to do anything in the neutral..

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

I have a lot of Exp vs (# of players):

GaW (one)
Ic's (one)
Falcon (two)
Marth (three)
Pit (one)
link (two)
Sonic (two)

some exp vs (# of players):

Peach (one)
ness (one)
DK (two)
Fox (four)

Most of the players have been / are ranked so I got some quality behind the experience at least.

Would you like to do a write up of one of those characters?? I'm really interested in how MK does against some of them!

It's helpful to list the player that you have played against and link VODs. I can't possibly fathom how Zelda beats MK, it's so difficult for her to do anything in the neutral..

I'm gonna record some matches of Prynne and I today. So, I should have some youtube videos up to reference my guide.

And to everyone else downing on dins. I'm just saying IF she gets it out, its a pain to deal with because only our dash attack clanks with it. And, on that note, IF she places it correctly we cant even clank with it it just beats our dash attack. I will add in how to effectively diminish the usage of Din's by Zelda in my post.

Thank you to everyone contributing. It makes me happy that people actually want this stuff completed!

EDIT: I have added to my zelda post so if you all could check that out for me!

 

[ConeZ]

This might seem like a random note, but I would like to contribute on the only matchup I have significant information about on this patch. (As the other matchups I have commented on are just observations from the time I HAVE played against them)

If anyone went to WTFox yesterday, (or even if you didn't), my buddy Chipgroove tied for 5th, beat Westballz 2-0 in pools, and took M2K to game 5 in Winners Semis in the Project M Singles tourney. He is a pretty good ROB, and he is basically my only practice partner (although he is a good bit better than me), but from playing against him, I have discerned that the matchup is basically even, and I wish to impart what I know to you all (as it is probably the best contribution I can actually make).

Spoiler: ROB

MU spread: even

A few things to note about ROB:
His lazer has a very low CD, and I believe the minimum time between uses is about ~1 to ~2 seconds, and its max charge is achieved in about 10 seconds.
He can chain grab you at certain percents with down throw, and at high percents, he has guaranteed aerial follow-ups due to the nature of his air boosts.
In case you didn't know, he has 3 boosts while in the air, and they don't refresh til he touches ground or catches ledge, so if he gets in the air, and you can keep him there, he is very likely to lose his stock.

From my extensive experience against him, I believe you should play the neutral against him much like any other character, with the exception that when he jumps, you should not immediately go to challenge him, as he has a great deal of mobility once he takes the air, and if you commit first, you will likely be punished.

Just DD and wave dash around like you normally would, and space down tilts/ f-tilts while you are both grounded. If he charges his top, I will generally dash towards him and react to whether or not he shoots it. Usually, SHFFL nair on ROB or WD over the top to gain it for a neat temporary projectile/ stage presence is nice, and sometimes if they don't release it, you can grab ROB and set up some nice, fat tech chases.
When he takes to the air, ROB gains a nice engage/ disengage tool in the form of his boost. This can effectively allow him to dash dance off the ground, and I believe this is why many players fail in the matchup. When he takes to the air, despite him being airborne, you still have to respect ROB's space. Avoid going all in until he throws out one of his aerials (although assuming it is out of neutral, it is probably nair or fair because his aerials are pretty laggy.
Punishing ROB's aerials is kinda tricky if he is staying close to the ground though because he can generally quickly follow them up with a swift down smash or a grab.

So generally, you either want to shield > nair or WD back OR you want to DD back and punish with a suitable move.
This much like any other matchup however, is very nice once we can get him *above us, and if you can manage to hit him after a boost, do everything you can (safely) to keep him airborne for as long as possible because if he loses one, his next priority should be not to trade, but to land, lest he wishes to be gimped. xD

In any case, this matchup is even because with his projectile(s) and aerial movement, he is able to mitigate the advantage we have in ground speed, and for as well as we gimp him, he gimps us fairly hard as well with his projectiles and aerial movement.
Which, as a closing note, I would like to add, you need to be tricky with your recovery, and do what you can to avoid the top/ lazer at all costs because you can and will die for no reason to those things xD

I am sorry if this is random/ all jumbled up, but this is probably the one matchup I know pretty solidly at the moment, so if anyone has other questions regarding the matchup, I'd be happy to answer them xD

 

[Sadface]

Me and Narelex are working on a marth post. Will edit later.

 

[Narelex]

Falcon has an exceedingly hard time getting Grabs in this MU but I did mention the combos out of upthrow which usually end in a knee.

If he's in the air he's made a mistake just DD to avoid the Nair and punish his choice.

Now on a separate post (sorry for double posting), I wanna know what people think of the Luigi/ Peach MUs?

I feel like the Luigi MU problems I have been having stem more from my still learning MK than it actually being a problem MU, but the Peach MU just feels bad, and I don't know how to approach it.

Also, I'd like to add that I, personally have had problems against floaty mid tiers historically, so it might be a personal thing xD

This might seem like a random note, but I would like to contribute on the only matchup I have significant information about on this patch. (As the other matchups I have commented on are just observations from the time I HAVE played against them)

If anyone went to WTFox yesterday, (or even if you didn't), my buddy Chipgroove tied for 5th, beat Westballz 2-0 in pools, and took M2K to game 5 in Winners Semis in the Project M Singles tourney. He is a pretty good ROB, and he is basically my only practice partner (although he is a good bit better than me), but from playing against him, I have discerned that the matchup is basically even, and I wish to impart what I know to you all (as it is probably the best contribution I can actually make).

A few things to note about ROB:
His lazer has a very low CD, and I believe the minimum time between uses is about ~1 to ~2 seconds, and its max charge is achieved in about 10 seconds.
He can chain grab you at certain percents with down throw, and at high percents, he has guaranteed aerial follow-ups due to the nature of his air boosts.
In case you didn't know, he has 3 boosts while in the air, and they don't refresh til he touches ground or catches ledge, so if he gets in the air, and you can keep him there, he is very likely to lose his stock.

From my extensive experience against him, I believe you should play the neutral against him much like any other character, with the exception that when he jumps, you should not immediately go to challenge him, as he has a great deal of mobility once he takes the air, and if you commit first, you will likely be punished.

Just DD and wave dash around like you normally would, and space down tilts/ f-tilts while you are both grounded. If he charges his top, I will generally dash towards him and react to whether or not he shoots it. Usually, SHFFL nair on ROB or WD over the top to gain it for a neat temporary projectile/ stage presence is nice, and sometimes if they don't release it, you can grab ROB and set up some nice, fat tech chases.
When he takes to the air, ROB gains a nice engage/ disengage tool in the form of his boost. This can effectively allow him to dash dance off the ground, and I believe this is why many players fail in the matchup. When he takes to the air, despite him being airborne, you still have to respect ROB's space. Avoid going all in until he throws out one of his aerials (although assuming it is out of neutral, it is probably nair or fair because his aerials are pretty laggy.
Punishing ROB's aerials is kinda tricky if he is staying close to the ground though because he can generally quickly follow them up with a swift down smash or a grab.

So generally, you either want to shield > nair or WD back OR you want to DD back and punish with a suitable move.
This much like any other matchup however, is very nice once we can get him *above us, and if you can manage to hit him after a boost, do everything you can (safely) to keep him airborne for as long as possible because if he loses one, his next priority should be not to trade, but to land, lest he wishes to be gimped. xD

In any case, this matchup is even because with his projectile(s) and aerial movement, he is able to mitigate the advantage we have in ground speed, and for as well as we gimp him, he gimps us fairly hard as well with his projectiles and aerial movement.
Which, as a closing note, I would like to add, you need to be tricky with your recovery, and do what you can to avoid the top/ lazer at all costs because you can and will die for no reason to those things xD

I am sorry if this is random/ all jumbled up, but this is probably the one matchup I know pretty solidly at the moment, so if anyone has other questions regarding the matchup, I'd be happy to answer them xD

Decent write-up But if you want to contribute just edit it into a spoiler post Its all getting added together at the top anyway. Otherwise the overall post gets pretty cluttered.

It's helpful to list the player that you have played against and link VODs. I can't possibly fathom how Zelda beats MK, it's so difficult for her to do anything in the neutral..

Been talking to Rai about this I feel like Its in MK's favour personally. Its a harder MU then DK for example. since she has some good combo's and killmoves on us. Still doesn't change the fact I feel we win the MU overall this patch.

 

[ConeZ]

Alrighty, I didn't know how to do the spoiler thing, so I will go back and edit that. Feel free to take anything I said into consideration, and organize it more neatly as you see fit

 

[Vitriform]

As a note on the Zelda matchup, you don't actually want to just DI in the direction she's facing for Bthrow, since it sends at a 45 degree angle (hence you should have an upward component to your DI as well). As such, your DI will be suboptimal if you try to DI for Fthrow when she Bthrows. Nonetheless, you should DI for Fthrow first, since both Bthrow and Dthrow have long animations and are easily reactable.

I also agree with Boiko that the Zelda matchup is slightly in Meta Knight's favor. It seems like it would be hard for Meta Knight due to his inability to clank Din's Fire with his moves, but it's important to remember that him having to clank a Din is contingent upon Zelda having time to (safely) set one in the first place. Zelda should never be able to set a Din in neutral against Meta Knight if the Meta Knight player is playing correctly, since his strong DD game and good disjoint make it exceedingly difficult to set anything up without eating a heavy punish.

 

[Lawn Chair]

MK beats zelda

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

As a note on the Zelda matchup, you don't actually want to just DI in the direction she's facing for Bthrow, since it sends at a 45 degree angle (hence you should have an upward component to your DI as well). As such, your DI will be suboptimal if you try to DI for Fthrow when she Bthrows. Nonetheless, you should DI for Fthrow first, since both Bthrow and Dthrow have long animations and are easily reactable.

I also agree with Boiko that the Zelda matchup is slightly in Meta Knight's favor. It seems like it would be hard for Meta Knight due to his inability to clank Din's Fire with his moves, but it's important to remember that him having to clank a Din is contingent upon Zelda having time to (safely) set one in the first place. Zelda should never be able to set a Din in neutral against Meta Knight if the Meta Knight player is playing correctly, since his strong DD game and good disjoint make it exceedingly difficult to set anything up without eating a heavy punish.

Can you link me to any videos that showcase a MK player and Zelda player of decent caliber? I just find it hard to keep on that kind of spacing and pressure for the entire match, because there is a difference between preventing din's from coming out and the zelda choosing not to send din's out.

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

Alright well I changed my post to just be an even 3, no ones favor, i.e. 50:50.

I also edited the OP to explain the numbers and the ratio values better.

I also think that the olimar MU analysis is pretty solid done by @ steelguttey . So, if anyone else agrees that this analysis is solid I can add it to the OP!! As well as any others you all feel are fit to be presented in the first post.

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

This might seem like a random note, but I would like to contribute on the only matchup I have significant information about on this patch. (As the other matchups I have commented on are just observations from the time I HAVE played against them)

If anyone went to WTFox yesterday, (or even if you didn't), my buddy Chipgroove tied for 5th, beat Westballz 2-0 in pools, and took M2K to game 5 in Winners Semis in the Project M Singles tourney. He is a pretty good ROB, and he is basically my only practice partner (although he is a good bit better than me), but from playing against him, I have discerned that the matchup is basically even, and I wish to impart what I know to you all (as it is probably the best contribution I can actually make).

Spoiler: ROB

MU spread: even

A few things to note about ROB:
His lazer has a very low CD, and I believe the minimum time between uses is about ~1 to ~2 seconds, and its max charge is achieved in about 10 seconds.
He can chain grab you at certain percents with down throw, and at high percents, he has guaranteed aerial follow-ups due to the nature of his air boosts.
In case you didn't know, he has 3 boosts while in the air, and they don't refresh til he touches ground or catches ledge, so if he gets in the air, and you can keep him there, he is very likely to lose his stock.

From my extensive experience against him, I believe you should play the neutral against him much like any other character, with the exception that when he jumps, you should not immediately go to challenge him, as he has a great deal of mobility once he takes the air, and if you commit first, you will likely be punished.

Just DD and wave dash around like you normally would, and space down tilts/ f-tilts while you are both grounded. If he charges his top, I will generally dash towards him and react to whether or not he shoots it. Usually, SHFFL nair on ROB or WD over the top to gain it for a neat temporary projectile/ stage presence is nice, and sometimes if they don't release it, you can grab ROB and set up some nice, fat tech chases.
When he takes to the air, ROB gains a nice engage/ disengage tool in the form of his boost. This can effectively allow him to dash dance off the ground, and I believe this is why many players fail in the matchup. When he takes to the air, despite him being airborne, you still have to respect ROB's space. Avoid going all in until he throws out one of his aerials (although assuming it is out of neutral, it is probably nair or fair because his aerials are pretty laggy.
Punishing ROB's aerials is kinda tricky if he is staying close to the ground though because he can generally quickly follow them up with a swift down smash or a grab.

So generally, you either want to shield > nair or WD back OR you want to DD back and punish with a suitable move.
This much like any other matchup however, is very nice once we can get him *above us, and if you can manage to hit him after a boost, do everything you can (safely) to keep him airborne for as long as possible because if he loses one, his next priority should be not to trade, but to land, lest he wishes to be gimped. xD

In any case, this matchup is even because with his projectile(s) and aerial movement, he is able to mitigate the advantage we have in ground speed, and for as well as we gimp him, he gimps us fairly hard as well with his projectiles and aerial movement.
Which, as a closing note, I would like to add, you need to be tricky with your recovery, and do what you can to avoid the top/ lazer at all costs because you can and will die for no reason to those things xD

I am sorry if this is random/ all jumbled up, but this is probably the one matchup I know pretty solidly at the moment, so if anyone has other questions regarding the matchup, I'd be happy to answer them xD

You sure seem to understand the R.O.B. match up, would you be able to put it into the format from the main post and we could analyze it better!

 

[Vitriform]

Can you link me to any videos that showcase a MK player and Zelda player of decent caliber? I just find it hard to keep on that kind of spacing and pressure for the entire match, because there is a difference between preventing din's from coming out and the zelda choosing not to send din's out.

Of course, it's not going to be easy to prevent her from ever setting a Din in practice, but intelligent use of DD grabs and good spacing should be enough to at least ensure that you can punish any attempts to set a Din in neutral. If Zelda manages to combo you, there's not much you can do to prevent her from setting one, and there's also not really much you can do to stop her if she's offstage. However, Zelda offstage in a place where she'd want to set one means you (most likely) have positional advantage, and you in a combo means she's already won the neutral game. If she's a fair distance away, you need to immediately and safely close the gap and pressure her (you don't necessarily need to throw out any attacks; just get up close to her and force her to react). Threaten her with aggressive movement. Make sure she feels trapped and immobile.

I don't know of any relevant Zelda v. Meta Knight matches in 3.5 or 3.6, but I believe Meta Knight's neutral shares many similarities with Marth's in the Zelda matchup (a heavy emphasis on DD camping her into grabs and spacing her out with tilts), so it might be worth watching some Zelda v. Marth matches to get an idea of how this is done (look specifically for good DD usage from the Marth or times where the Marth rushes in to punish an unsafe option). In my opinion, Meta Knight has the advantage, but it's not as strong as Marth's advantage on Zelda (owing to Marth's slightly longer range and ability to clank Din's Fires with less commitment). I'd put it at 55:45 in Meta Knight's favor, but that's just my opinion. You're welcome to agree or disagree as you see fit, seeing as it's your guide.

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

Of course, it's not going to be easy to prevent her from ever setting a Din in practice, but intelligent use of DD grabs and good spacing should be enough to at least ensure that you can punish any attempts to set a Din in neutral. If Zelda manages to combo you, there's not much you can do to prevent her from setting one, and there's also not really much you can do to stop her if she's offstage. However, Zelda offstage in a place where she'd want to set one means you (most likely) have positional advantage, and you in a combo means she's already won the neutral game. If she's a fair distance away, you need to immediately and safely close the gap and pressure her (you don't necessarily need to throw out any attacks; just get up close to her and force her to react). Threaten her with aggressive movement. Make sure she feels trapped and immobile.

I don't know of any relevant Zelda v. Meta Knight matches in 3.5 or 3.6, but I believe Meta Knight's neutral shares many similarities with Marth's in the Zelda matchup (a heavy emphasis on DD camping her into grabs and spacing her out with tilts), so it might be worth watching some Zelda v. Marth matches to get an idea of how this is done (look specifically for good DD usage from the Marth or times where the Marth rushes in to punish an unsafe option). In my opinion, Meta Knight has the advantage, but it's not as strong as Marth's advantage on Zelda (owing to Marth's slightly longer range and ability to clank Din's Fires with less commitment). I'd put it at 55:45 in Meta Knight's favor, but that's just my opinion. You're welcome to agree or disagree as you see fit, seeing as it's your guide.

Thank you for the generous input. I never really saw exactly WHEN the zelda is placing din's and I guess she has already won the neutral by that point. I just have to learn how I losing the neutral! P: Narelex also said 55:45 so ill change it to a 3.5 instead of 3. Thank you so much!! And it isnt "my" guide, I want this to be a community made guide so whatever the community agrees on, will be the end consensus.

 

[Narelex]

Thank you for the generous input. I never really saw exactly WHEN the zelda is placing din's and I guess she has already won the neutral by that point. I just have to learn how I losing the neutral! P: Narelex also said 55:45 so ill change it to a 3.5 instead of 3. Thank you so much!! And it isnt "my" guide, I want this to be a community made guide so whatever the community agrees on, will be the end consensus.

This very much this. We're all learning new things and teaching each other about the MU's so this is extremely important as a learning tool for all of us. Any MU's you have issues in BAM someone else knows it much better then you. That's why I encouraged the making of this post in the first place. Plus knowing good stage picks against characters never hurts either.

 

[Narelex]

It's helpful to list the player that you have played against and link VODs. I can't possibly fathom how Zelda beats MK, it's so difficult for her to do anything in the neutral..

Yeah we've updated the Zelda MU to reflect its MK's advantage.

You up for doing a Ness vs MK analysis?

 

[ConeZ]

You sure seem to understand the R.O.B. match up, would you be able to put it into the format from the main post and we could analyze it better!

Yeah, well my main practice partner (as in the only one I practice with regularly) is a ROB main, so I'd like to think I have a decent bit of knowledge on the MU if nothing else xD
But yeah, I will try to edit it to be a bit better organized some time in the next few days, but I work full time on weekdays, so it might take a bit to get to.

 

[Dandizzle]

https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3dby6q/matchup_wednesday_016/ oh goody reddit match up threads you guys should witness the deep analysis about 2 come out right now

 

[Phubs]

I just played a Kirby for a couple of hours, and I'm not a very good MK since I picked him up last week, but the mu seems like it would be 60-40 if Kirby's tornado wasn't so broken

My friend could grab -> d-throw -> jab reset -> neutral b for an easy 40% if he did it right

Basically if you get swallowed you could be done if the Kirby knows what they're doing, but then again it could just be because I'm bad

 

[Narelex]

I just played a Kirby for a couple of hours, and I'm not a very good MK since I picked him up last week, but the mu seems like it would be 60-40 if Kirby's tornado wasn't so broken

My friend could grab -> d-throw -> jab reset -> neutral b for an easy 40% if he did it right

Basically if you get swallowed you could be done if the Kirby knows what they're doing, but then again it could just be because I'm bad

You can tech the Dthrow btw, so its not guaranteed. Kirby has strong Copy Powers so try not to get swallowed in the first place with your speed.

Too early to say I'll let you guys know when my Kirby Friend gets less busy with RL but its definitely in our Favour just not sure how much.

 

[Boiko]

MK beats Kirby imo. I'll do the Ness write-up soon.