Kirby vs Luigi/Mario - How? They are so fast!

[coolarj10]

Hi everybody, as a Kirby, Mario and Luigi are my worst matchups. They are SO fast, and I understand I need to be patient and be spot on with pattern recognition.

Two main questions:

1) What does one do against someone who spams a fireball in order to grab you as soon as you shield against it? I try to approach by running and shielding to cover some distance, but as soon as the fireball hits me, I am temporarily stunned and get grabbed. I can try to in-place dash to avoid the grab, but my options are limited after that and it's still a sticky situation. How does one approach a player (especially Luigi who's balls are linear) like that? Am I just mis-timing my shields? Would I not have this issue if I power shield at the perfect time?

2) Any general tactics? A lot of these players are so fast they can do 2-3 attacks before I can do even one. And they'll pretend to move towards me and then roll back in order to bait an attack and then counter me when I'm in end-lag. Many times I can catch on to this to avoid getting baited, but responding is still difficult.

3) That down-A tornado attack is a *****. It has a nice chunk of end lag which is great, but characters usually use it when I'm already in the air. I guess that isn't really a question.

4) I clearly can't count.


Anyway, my main focus with this thread is really question #1, but any general tips are helpful.

My For Glory record hovers around 80-92%, just to give you an idea of my skill level.

Thanks in advance!

 

[WritersBlah]

Questions regarding specific characters should be posted in the appropriate character boards. In your case, that would be the Kirby boards. Aside from that though, questions about specific match-ups should be asked within the match-up thread, which for you, can be found over here.

 

[coolarj10]

Oh okay, thank you.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

Oh okay, thank you.

Also go to the Mario and Luigi boards, they should be happy to give you advice since they know the match up from their point of view.

 

[raizur]

1) I'm going to split this question into 2 parts.
Part 1: Luigi
You already know Luigi's fireballs are linear, and you stated something along the lines of trying to approach by running and shielding. One major flaw i can point out is that if the Luigi catches on, he can read when you shield, and punish with a grab, which is what you want to avoid. A good strategy to avoid the incoming fire balls, just crouch. It may sound to good to be true, but it really is the best option. Yes, I know that if Kirby goes into his crouch animation where he looks away from the screen, his hurt box becomes larger and you'll get hit with the fire ball. Solution? Down tilt. If you down tilt in between fire balls, you can reset his "timer" so that his crouch animation never comes up. To make things better, from my experience at least, his down tilt hurt box is the same size as if Kirby was just crouching, so you basically don't have to worry about getting hit from his fireballs. On top of avoiding the fire balls, if the Luigi runs up to grab, just dtilt him away.

Part 2: Mario
Mario's fireballs are a bit more tricky. Unlike Luigi's, you can't duck and cover for this one. Instead, you want to try to keep your distance and shield and let go and shield again when there's an incoming fire ball. I find these fire balls to be easier to perfect shield compared to Luigi's, but that's just me. You just have to keep your distance and try to predict him. if you predict the fireball, you can run up and shield the fire ball and punish Mario for it if you're close enough.

If you can, I'd HIGHLY suggest you try your best to land a Dair> Utilt> inhale combo to take their power. Mario and Luigi's fireballs are excellent for the neutral game and pretty good for an edge guard.

2) A general tactic would be to keep your distance, watch what they do, and DO NOT rush in. See if they have any habits/ patterns, punish them. Be very cautious, remember, you're Kirby and can die pretty early to both of them.

Hope I was able to help you. I'll be happy to answer further questions and or clear out anything that sounded confusing. Good Luck!

 

[coolarj10]

Holy moly, thanks for the tips raizur! When you're referring to "down tilt," are you saying I should crouch, and then use kirby's forward tilt attack (but in the absolute lowest angle possible) and then return to a crouch?

Out of all my online searching, your response is the most specific to my Luigi/Mario issues. I also noticed you mentioned "don't rush in." That may be my biggest issue, as I often find myself playing too fast and having difficulty slowing down. Thanks a lot!

 

[raizur]

Holy moly, thanks for the tips raizur! When you're referring to "down tilt," are you saying I should crouch, and then use kirby's forward tilt attack (but in the absolute lowest angle possible) and then return to a crouch?

Out of all my online searching, your response is the most specific to my Luigi/Mario issues. I also noticed you mentioned "don't rush in." That may be my biggest issue, as I often find myself playing too fast and having difficulty slowing down. Thanks a lot!

No, down tilt is basically hold down, or crouch, and press your attack button. What you were referring to is considered a downward angled forward tilt.

Really happy I was able to help, good luck in your battles!

 

[coolarj10]

Ohhh I think I understand what you mean:

When I perform a down tilt, there is an animation in which Kirby looks away from the screen for a brief moment. During this animation, his hurt box becomes larger, making me more susceptible to attacks or grabs. Therefore, if I time my down tilt correctly, I can attack the fireball with a down tilt so that it instantly stops the full animation from occurring, allowing me to perform another move immediately.

Is that a correct interpretation?

 

[Dessa]

Duck under projectiles. Press A to attack while ducking if you need to.

That's really it.

 

[raizur]

Ohhh I think I understand what you mean:

When I perform a down tilt, there is an animation in which Kirby looks away from the screen for a brief moment. During this animation, his hurt box becomes larger, making me more susceptible to attacks or grabs. Therefore, if I time my down tilt correctly, I can attack the fireball with a down tilt so that it instantly stops the full animation from occurring, allowing me to perform another move immediately.

Is that a correct interpretation?

Sort of. Just like if you leave Kirby standing, he will do idle animations if left alone for too long, same goes with if you crouch and not input anything. By using down tilt, you'll be able to keep the size of Kirby's crouch hurtbox, which will dodge Luigi's fireballs, and not have to worry about his crouch idle animation from coming out. Other than that, you got it right. Also, basically what Dessa said is true.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I actually got a run for my money against a very skilled Kirby player. Dair and Fair into Downsmash is very effective when approaching Mario... The frame data on those seem to work together very fluidly, not leaving Mario with a lot of options. Dair Utilt also works incredibly well for racking up percent and making Mario combo food. Funnily enough, you're too light for him to combo well, but you have the tools to make him taste his own medicine. (Doc pun intended)
Short hop fairs into grab, utilt, or downsmash are a good answer to fireballs if you can catch the plumbers in the endlag of their animation. Once again, dair also works wonders as combo food, spike, and even gimping against the plumbers, who's recoveries all fall shorter than yours. (Unless you're Boss)

 

[coolarj10]

Thanks Dessa, raizur, and FrankTheStud for all of your advice. Everything you three have mentioned is helpful. I suppose I have to combine it all into a strategy.

Because just down-tilting doesn't get the job done alone: mario/luigi can run in between the down-tilts and grab me.

I've found Dair to be a very dangerous move because it is so easily punishable by Mario/Luigi's upsmash, and therefore must be used sparingly.

I really like the short hop into grab tactic - that works quite well, I should be doing it more often.

LOL @ the pun!

 

[FrankTheStud]

Thanks Dessa, raizur, and FrankTheStud for all of your advice. Everything you three have mentioned is helpful. I suppose I have to combine it all into a strategy.

Because just down-tilting doesn't get the job done alone: mario/luigi can run in between the down-tilts and grab me.

I've found Dair to be a very dangerous move because it is so easily punishable by Mario/Luigi's upsmash, and therefore must be used sparingly.

I really like the short hop into grab tactic - that works quite well, I should be doing it more often.

LOL @ the pun!

You're welcome! Just keep doing what you feel is appropriate for the situation! Happy smashing!

 

[Quarium]

Small advice but It's also super easier to perfect shield both fireballs if crouching, due to your hitbox becoming small and your shield staying the same size + coming up on frame 1(This means you can let the projectiles get closer to you and just put up your shield for a simple perfect shield), if you perfect shield the fireball and they are already approaching just D-tilt them to keep them away! This cuts off some of their approach game and can also be used for conditioning if they are already expecting you to keep doing it later. Best of luck!