Kirby Match-Up thread (Kirby sucks)

[Berserker.]

Discuss

vs

 

[Zacko]

The monado seems to be one of the best abilities for Kirby to copy for obvious reasons.
I don't have a lot of experience against good Kirby players, but I learned a lot from watching this video:
Loser's Finals - John#s vs. Ho3K MikeKirby

There's also a thread in the Kirby-section on how to beat Shulk:
http://smashboards.com/threads/cant-beat-shulk.376337/

 

[erico9001]

If Kirby does suck you up and get the Monado Arts, thing discussed in the Shulk match-up thread may apply. Buster > Monado Jump, for instance. Or... Buster > Shield.

I wonder what the ratios for damage and everything are for Kirby? Are they the same as Shulk's pre-patch %'s were? I don't think this has been looked to at all.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

If Kirby does suck you up and get the Monado Arts, thing discussed in the Shulk match-up thread may apply. Buster > Monado Jump, for instance. Or... Buster > Shield.

I wonder what the ratios for damage and everything are for Kirby? Are they the same as Shulk's pre-patch %'s were? I don't think this has been looked to at all.

One thing to note is that Jump and Speed Kirby are ridiculous. Jump Kirby is worse than Sonic, you literally can't touch him unless he lets you with Monado Jump. Speed Kirby's hard to deal with too, for obvious reasons. And then Buster Kirby with his combo ability and tilts...oh gosh. I'll probably post a more detailed analysis on this match up later, b ut honestly, ATM i think Kirby might have a slight/moderate advantage over Shulk if he manages to get the Monado.

 

[erico9001]

I wonder what makes kirby more likely to lose his copied ability... more damage (Buster) or more knockback (Smash).

One thing to note is that Jump and Speed Kirby are ridiculous. Jump Kirby is worse than Sonic, you literally can't touch him unless he lets you with Monado Jump. Speed Kirby's hard to deal with too, for obvious reasons. And then Buster Kirby with his combo ability and tilts...oh gosh. I'll probably post a more detailed analysis on this match up later, b ut honestly, ATM i think Kirby might have a slight/moderate advantage over Shulk if he manages to get the Monado.

Yeah, Jump kirby can stall like crazy, but what goes up must come down. Kirby can stay in the air for just about 8 seconds using Monado Jump, meaning he can jump up twice or he can fall down a little sooner than normal to get a quick boost to extend it beyond 16 seconds. Totally broken. Well, just try to get him when he comes down I guess. Maybe see what you can do with Monado Buster when he is coming down because he will take 1.708x damage if you are in buster.

I can confirm Jump Kirby does take 1.22x damage like Jump Shulk.

For buster kirby's intake these are the numbers of the damage kirby took compared with what he would have taken with no Monado Buster.

45, 90, 135, 180, 225, 271
40, 80, 120, 160, 200, 240

1.129166...x damage intake. That's really close to Shulk's 1.13x damage, so it's probably 1.13x.

This is all I can test for now... playing the game with dad

 

[kenniky]

Kirby on Jump: damage taken:
3 -> 4
9 -> 11
8 -> 10
11 -> 15
6 -> 8
~ 30% more

Kirby on Speed: damage dealt:
6 -> 4
21 -> 16
4 -> 3
10 -> 8
18 -> 14
~ 24.5% less

Kirby on Shield: damage dealt:
6 -> 4
4 -> 3
21 -> 14
18 -> 13
8 -> 5
~ 31.4% less

Kirby on Shield: damage taken:
8 -> 5
3 -> 2
9 -> 6
20 -> 13
25 -> 18
~ 33.1% less

Kirby on Buster: damage dealt:
15 -> 19
6 -> 8
18 -> 23
21 -> 26
8 -> 10
~ 27.1% more

Kirby on Buster: damage taken:
11 -> 12
9 -> 10
3 -> 4
13 -> 14
20 -> 22
~ 13.2% more (might have gotten skewed by the 3 -> 4)

Kirby on Smash: damage dealt:
4 -> 2
21 -> 11
19 -> 10
6 -> 3
8 -> 4
looks like about 50%

For those wondering, what I did was calculate the percent difference of each, then the cumulative percent difference, and then average all of those giving 2x weight to the cumulative percent

Except for Smash I estimated that

Also not completely sure if this is really accurate but it was the most I felt like doing

 

[erico9001]

Kirby on Jump: damage taken:
3 -> 4
9 -> 11
8 -> 10
11 -> 15
6 -> 8
~ 30% more

Kirby on Speed: damage dealt:
6 -> 4
21 -> 16
4 -> 3
10 -> 8
18 -> 14
~ 24.5% less

Kirby on Shield: damage dealt:
6 -> 4
4 -> 3
21 -> 14
18 -> 13
8 -> 5
~ 31.4% less

Kirby on Shield: damage taken:
8 -> 5
3 -> 2
9 -> 6
20 -> 13
25 -> 18
~ 33.1% less

Kirby on Buster: damage dealt:
15 -> 19
6 -> 8
18 -> 23
21 -> 26
8 -> 10
~ 27.1% more

Kirby on Buster: damage taken:
11 -> 12
9 -> 10
3 -> 4
13 -> 14
20 -> 22
~ 13.2% more (might have gotten skewed by the 3 -> 4)

Kirby on Smash: damage dealt:
4 -> 2
21 -> 11
19 -> 10
6 -> 3
8 -> 4
looks like about 50%

For those wondering, what I did was calculate the percent difference of each, then the cumulative percent difference, and then average all of those giving 2x weight to the cumulative percent

Except for Smash I estimated that

Also not completely sure if this is really accurate but it was the most I felt like doing

It can't be too accurate because I got 1.22x. Shulk's final smash does 40% damage exact, so is nice to determine this stuff. Use it repeatedly to reveal any decimal places. Temple is a nice stage for doing it without killing people.

 

[kenniky]

It can't be too accurate because I got 1.22x. Shulk's final smash does 40% damage exact, so is nice to determine this stuff. Use it repeatedly to reveal any decimal places. Temple is a nice stage for doing it without killing people.

Actually I forgot about Final Smashes Ultra Sword also appears to do 40% so that's nice

Shulk's Chain Attack:
Neutral: 40%
Jump: 48% - ~20% more
Buster: 45% - ~12.5% more
Shield: 26% - ~ 35% less

Kirby's Ultra Sword:
Neutral: 40%
Speed: 32% - ~20% less
Shield: 28% - ~30% less
Buster: 50% - ~25% more
Smash: 20% - ~50% less

These numbers are probably more accurate. I was too lazy to do multiple times though

 

[erico9001]

Intake:
26, 53, 80, 107, 133, 160
40, 80, 120, 160, 200, 240

160/270 would suggest 2/3, but 2/3×160 is 106.7 and Smash Bros always rounds down. 107/160 has to be the closest result .66875. That's close enough to the .67x to assume it's the same.

Honestly, the only result I'm interested in is Speed and Buster's output damages since Shulk's got improved with the patches.

Buster.
50, 101, 152, 203, 253
40, 80, 120, 160, 200

This means Buster's damage increase is greater than or equal to 1.26875 and less than 1.27.


Monado Speed.
32, 64, 95, 127, 160
40, 80, 120, 160, 200

Yea, looks like this one is .8x.

Looks like Buster Kirby's multiplier is less than Shulk's.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Intake:
26, 53, 80, 107, 133, 160
40, 80, 120, 160, 200, 240

160/270 would suggest 2/3, but 2/3×160 is 106.7 and Smash Bros always rounds down. 107/160 has to be the closest result .66875. That's close enough to the .67x to assume it's the same.

Honestly, the only result I'm interested in is Speed and Buster's output damages since Shulk's got improved with the patches.

Buster.
50, 101, 152, 203, 253
40, 80, 120, 160, 200

This means Buster's damage increase is greater than or equal to 1.26875 and less than 1.27.


Monado Speed.
32, 64, 95, 127, 160
40, 80, 120, 160, 200

Yea, looks like this one is .8x.

Looks like Buster Kirby's multiplier is less than Shulk's.

So the copied Monado isn't as strong as the genuine one. Lol, that's nice.

 

[erico9001]

So the copied Monado isn't as strong as the genuine one. Lol, that's nice.

I think maybe Sakurai (Zanza) partially unlocked the Monado's power for us, but thought a full Monado II would be too op. Kirby did not receive such aid, for he is not the true heir to the Monado. Kirby is basically like Dunban. He is able to use the Monado, even a few Monado arts, but he cannot see the future (no counter).

 

[Nerdicon]

Don't get swallowed. Just don't. I've played a Kirby and the match-up was definitely in my favor (Shulk destroys Kirby with his long range) and then he copied the Monado. Watch out for Dair to Up tilt combos from Kirby in buster form, easily combos to 60+. Jump Kirby is a monster in the air with the increased speed and stalling capabilities. However Smash Kirby is incredibly light, Ftilt kills pretty early (sorry can't give exact numbers though) Would give more info but I played about 5 matches with the guy.

 

[Zephil]

Nair and fair this fluffy piece of **** to oblivion!

I hate this puffball and yeah agree with all of you.

Shulk > Kirby but Monado Kirby > Shulk

The extra mobility is exactly what Kirby needs and Buster makes his strings more ridiculous.

 

[Agent Emerald]

Aww Yiss. The Kirby thread.

Against Kirby, Shulk really needs to space out Kirby. This is made easier by how Kirby's weakest attribute is his mobility and approaches. Kirby has to rely on either being unpredictable or reacting correctly to your approach. Something tto note is that inhale is also laggy. Don't as long as you don't roll into Kirby, You're pretty set.

However, if you do get inhaled, the matchup goes south for Shulk. Monado Jump and Speed cure Kirby of his mobility weakness. Jump in particular is dangerous, as Kirby can Uair Shulk to the blastline in a way that makes Brawl Meta Knight proud. Sheild gives Kirby the ability to survive a lot longer than he normally would, which Kirby really appreciates. Buster Dair to Utilt traps Shulk almost as badly as Fox. Smash is easily the riskiest of them all, making Kirby Jigglypuff with a kill throw. In a nutshell, pray you can knock the Monado off of Kirby before he can wreck havoc on you.

When it comes to stage picks, I reccomend battlefield. The monado can eat up platform space like Kirby eats cake, and there's less room for Kirby to move around in.

One more thing: about the monado buffs. I think Kirby may still have the pre-patch Monado, which explains why the numbers are different than with Shulk. Same thing happened with Sheik.

 

[DiverseStyle]

This matchup has been annoying for me too. Monado poser aside, how should you be reacting after shielding Kirby's Dair? Is there enough time to shield-grab before the U-tilt can hit, or should you roll away? Or is there like no landing lag on Kirby's Dair that he can even grab you if you roll away?

God, it's so annoying.

 

[erico9001]

This matchup has been annoying for me too. Monado poser aside, how should you be reacting after shielding Kirby's Dair? Is there enough time to shield-grab before the U-tilt can hit, or should you roll away? Or is there like no landing lag on Kirby's Dair that he can even grab you if you roll away?

God, it's so annoying.

Well it does you no good if you unshield the attack and he hits you with it.

Hmm let's see...

Yea, you should be able to grab kirby following the Dair. He has 17 frames of landing lag (the same as our Uair). Furthermore, Kirby's U-tilt has of 4 frames of lag before it comes out. Our grab has 7 frames of start-up lag, and dash grab has 9 frames of start-up lag.

 

[Berserker.]

Anyway... With that being said, I'd probably mark this as +2 for Shulk. Despite Monado Kirby being really scary (Jump Kirby can stall), we still have some options against Kirby and Kirby still has the weaknesses that Monado arts grant which are still exploitable. It's like a much harder Shulk ditto. Inhale's hard to land and you should be out-ranging Kirby most of the time. I could settle for +1 if anyone objects

 

[Agent Emerald]

This matchup has been annoying for me too. Monado poser aside, how should you be reacting after shielding Kirby's Dair? Is there enough time to shield-grab before the U-tilt can hit, or should you roll away? Or is there like no landing lag on Kirby's Dair that he can even grab you if you roll away?

God, it's so annoying.

Dair is one of Kirby's laggier Aerials, so grabbing is usually your go-to punish option unless Kirby is able to dair through your sheild. I recommend you wait till Kirby hits the ground after dair so you don't get tapped out of grab.

Personally I'd say it's even.

 

[Maple42]

Like Berserker said, despite the ridiculous amount of stalling that can happen as a result of Jump Kirby, I find the match-up to be a positive one; Kirby simply cannot challenge us in the air. While approaching from above, Up Tilt can act as a wall vertically, and horizontally, FAir and NAir zoning works wonders. I'd say, play patiently, win with chip damage; it's akin to a zoner v. rushdown, except Kirby doesn't have the tools necessary to get in.

 

[Locke 06]

@ Aunt Jemima - why haven't you posted in this thread? This was made for you...

I would push it +.5 with customs off due but break it down to +1 if he doesn't inhale you and -1 if he does inhale you (weighted more on non-monado kirby because it's hard for him to do that), but -1.5 customs on. Kirby is significantly better with customs as jumping inhale gives him an approach option and a way to try and inhale Shulk that isn't just standing still. Upper cutter is like air slash, except faster and it kills off the top. Meanwhile, power vision is destructive against him if you can pull it off, and it's hard to argue for hyper arts being that much better than default arts here due to his stalling capability. That said, hyper smash kills kirby at such low %'s.

The idea that it's like a Shulk ditto once he gets the monado arts is... kind of not true. Kirby's combo game in buster is disgusting and he can get to it via speed. Sure he has the weaknesses of the arts, but his moveset is alright without them and is destructive with them. I'm not going to say I'm a good Shulk while Reserved is a good Kirby, but the idea that Kirby strings Shulk to 80% in buster and can use speed to mitigate his mobility and effective range issues... it's scary and I am glad I don't have to fight that using anyone else. The good news is that most kirbys don't know how to use the arts.

The bad news, is some of them might...

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I forgot about this thread...

 

[Masonomace]

I'll have to edit this post after I test it myself in case it could be apparent, but I'm hoping that Shield Shulk can act out of hit-stun much quicker from Buster Kirby's combos to avoid it all-together.

EDIT:

Shield Shulk can indeed escape from the U-tilts of doom earlier. You can choose from three options:

1. Hold down on the analog during the U-tilts to sink to the ground quicker to perfect shield
2. Hold up in case you were hit from a high distance, & Doublejump away when you're able to
3. Hold down & use the gtfo Vision

Smash Shulk can escape the U-tilts of doom as well. However, your only good option is to hold up during Kirby's U-tilts so that you can rise higher out of it & eventually Doublejump away.

 

[Berserker.]

I forgot about this thread...

I tagged you and made this thread for you :U

 

[DblCrest]

:but...muh nado

But seriously
This match up looks fun though a bit painful for Kirby given Shulk's range and aerials. xD
I've been caught off guard by Air slash even while airborne.

How is Shulk when it comes to getting juggled against Kirby? I mean Kirbs got extra jumps and can bait out the air dodge or vision counter right?

Not sure if it was Mike Kirby or someone else who would usually run all over the place after copying Shulk. In a youtube video

 

[Agent Emerald]

I would push it +.5 with customs off due but break it down to +1 if he doesn't inhale you and -1 if he does inhale you (weighted more on non-monado kirby because it's hard for him to do that), but -1.5 customs on. Kirby is significantly better with customs as jumping inhale gives him an approach option and a way to try and inhale Shulk that isn't just standing still. Upper cutter is like air slash, except faster and it kills off the top. Meanwhile, power vision is destructive against him if you can pull it off, and it's hard to argue for hyper arts being that much better than default arts here due to his stalling capability. That said, hyper smash kills kirby at such low %'s.

Locke, thank you for bringing up customs.

Kirby is a character I feel that while he can make use of what he has, he becomes even better with customs. Jumping Inhale gives Kirby an approach and a good horizontal recovery action. Both hammer alts are good, with armored Giant hammer and the surprisingly good Brawl hammer. Stone is where things get kinda divided between burying opponents or spiking them. I've grown to like the original one though.

Now I kinda wanna see Jerm or Trela go up against someone like MikeKirby, Asdioh, or Reserved.

 

[Locke 06]

Locke, thank you for bringing up customs.

Kirby is a character I feel that while he can make use of what he has, he becomes even better with customs. Jumping Inhale gives Kirby an approach and a good horizontal recovery action. Both hammer alts are good, with armored Giant hammer and the surprisingly good Brawl hammer. Stone is where things get kinda divided between burying opponents or spiking them. I've grown to like the original one though.

Now I kinda wanna see Jerm or Trela go up against someone like MikeKirby, Asdioh, or Reserved.

Upper cutter is OP.

Jerm's crew challenged Reserved's crew, so, if things work out, we could get at least a little footage of that MU.

 

[kenniky]

Spoiler: Kirby custom ideas

I read in the Customs Project whatever-it's-called that all 12 of Kirby's options are viable in some way. Ice Breath doesn't seem like it would do much good in this matchup, though, given how Kirby's main goal during this matchup should be to swallow Shulk and wreak havoc with the Monado Arts.

These are Kirby's custom setups:
3231 (Jumping Inhale, Hammer Bash, Upper Cutter, Stone)
3233 (Jumping Inhale, Hammer Bash, Upper Cutter, Meteor Stone)
3221 (Jumping Inhale, Hammer Bash, Wave Cutter, Stone)
3132 (Jumping Inhale, Hammer Flip, Upper Cutter, Grounding Stone)
3311 (Jumping Inhale, Giant Hammer, Final Cutter, Stone)
2231 (Ice Breath, Hammer Bash, Upper Cutter, Stone)

From what I can tell from a quick scan:
Set 6 will probably never be used against Shulk due to the potency of Monado Arts
Hammer Bash seems to be the most used side special. If you see it coming, you could try a counter but chances are he'll use it when you're off-guard; in that case you should probably either shield or get out depending on situation/art (Shield is definitely a shield while Speed or Jump might merit a retreat)
Upper Cutter seems to be the most common up special. Watch out for this as it's pretty fast and goes pretty high. If you manage to avoid it Kirby's pretty vulnerable (like everyone else in helpless) so capitalize I guess. Using this custom gets rid of Kirby's only projectile though so remember that.
Regular Stone seems to be the most used down special. I think Buster Vision (normal on both variants - not sure about Power Vision or the Art Variants) goes through the Stone but otherwise you should probably focus on avoiding and grabbing. I don't see Stone used a lot competitively though.

For Hammer Flip I would suggest jumping and falling in with nair or something - I don't think they have an upwards hitbox. Giant Hammer has super armor though so I would just suggest staying away until he a) starts damaging himself or b) swings prematurely so you can rush in for a punish.

Wave Cutter's range is ridiculous so be wary of that. It also comes out like immediately so make sure not to get wrecked. Finall Cutter is relatively standard fare although remember that the projectile exists.

If they pack Grounding Stone or Meteor Stone watch out when you're in the respective area (Grounding Stone when you're on the ground, Meteor when you're over the edge) Meteor Stone I can see being especially deadly when he's right above you or close to that so be wary.

Spoiler: counterpick customs?

For our customs I'd suggest not using Hyper Monado Arts as the stally nature of Kirby just makes them completely useless.
Back Slash Charge's stupid ending lag also could setup for a free Inhale (especially if they're packing Jumping Inhale) although I generally find that Back Slash Charge is pretty disorienting for opponents and is a semi-viable way of horizontal recovery
Not sure if any of the Air Slash customs would work well here but my intuition says no.
Power Vision is OP against Kirby due to light weight. Go for a read I guess. Not sure which Power Visions go through Stone but it could be worth checking out. Try Visioning Hammers?

Other stuff:
Try to space out Kirby to where he can't Inhale you. Just like how Kirby's main goal in this MU is to get the Monado like Mumkhar our goal is to keep him from getting it.
Shield form I feel like is not that great of an idea in this MU due to decrease in mobility. Go for Buster if you're at a high percent in order to rack up damage I guess.
Speed's horizontal focus might make it easier for the horizontal-based Inhale to get us. Opt for Buster or Jump in this MU?

Keep in mind this is purely theoretical and that I have little experience with the matchup.

 

[Berserker.]

Focus on buster against Kirby. You can also play campy with speed if you want but you're going to profit more from using buster against Kirby. OR, you can use speed to gain control of the match THEN use buster when you gain the advantage. Take advantage of your ground/air mobility. Don't throw out smash attacks, please. This is probably one of those match ups where I'd refrain from pivot f-smashing that much

 

[Pikalink]

Ehh, you can't really blame us Kirby users for wanting the arts. I go crazy with them once I grab it. It feels like my two mains fused together. But when I go Shulk I get annoyed by the spamage of as they fail each time to swallow me.
I love having shield on Kirby though. He lives longer.
Jump Kirby: He will recover back. Lots of jumping.
Speed Kirby: Useful for getting in combos.
Shield Kirby: As I said, lives longer.
Buster Kirby: The less knockback is actually useful.
Smash Kirby: Fragile little beast. The end of Kirby or the end of you.
Basically becomes an adapt battle if both users know what they are doing. But most of the time for me the Kirby user is bad or the Shulk user is bad. Most of them don't even use the arts right. Ex. Shield on low percents. Smash on high(Counting the opponent has low damage). Sigh I really want to see a good Shulk Vs. Kirby match up. If you're the Shulk keep an eye on that there Kirby.

I just thought of some thing. Replace Kirby's final cutter with Villager's recover and then have monado jump. That would be the troll of the ages.

 

[erico9001]

I watched that new kirby guide...

We can punish kirby's down B with buster's counter -> Gives 12% damage (both forwarded and not forwarded) while forcing Kirby out of the stone. That's fantastic! Power vision does 14%. We can also force kirby out of it with an uncharged buster F-smash or U-smash giving him 9% damage in the process. Uncharged D-smash also works, but only gives 7% damage and has more IASA frames. Of course, the charged versions of these moves work too.

 

[Grexin]

I really want a discussion started here, the patches has made Kirby a bigger threat and honestly it is not a +2 matchup

 

[Berserker.]

Kirby is scarier when he gets up close so he actually gains more if he manages to beat Shulk at the neutral, but what made the match-up hard for Kirby still remains there. Shulk has the advantage at the neutral since he he has greater range and greater mobility than Kirby. Kirby has good options when he has the upper hand though (he can gimp Shulk's recovery) and once he inhales Shulk, things get really difficult but that's only if he lands inhale (which is pretty hard to land btw). Just space, avoid committing into the wrong options, and do not let Kirby get close to you

Still feels like a +2 but after the patches, +1 might seem a bit more accurate than before. Imo

 

[Grexin]

I believe at low %'s kirby can utilt into a b-reversed inhale, which is scary since if I recall correctly (pls don't quote me on this) kirby can fthrow land with uair utilt and from there he can easily inhale us, most Kirby's in the new patch will be fishing for that grab at low %'s so we have to be aware of that

 

[Masonomace]

The sole reason I disallow Kirby to have Monado arts is seriously because of Monado Jump. Monado Jump Kirby is the most godlike stalling character, and I just cannot let myself be inhaled for that very reason. To make it worse, the Kirby player aware of Buffering the Jump art's deactivation can jump ridiculously higher and to have his Final Cutter reverted to Vanilla again. Monado Jump slightly reduces Final Cutter's vertical recovery but if you ask me, it's not even a setback let alone close enough of balancing when all five of his midair jumps are too good.

My opinion on a MU rating I guess is +1 or 0 even because I highly doubt it's +2 in our favor. Monado Buster Kirby tilts are terrifying but my simple remedy to this like all of my problems is to roll Monado Shield because the hitstun advantage I get is hilariously in my favor. I say this now in that no Shulk player should ever have to go through that pain alone. Just keep calm and Shield.