Master Knight DH
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2008
- Messages
- 460
Link to original post: [drupal=5318]Kid Icarus Uprising's Power system would be a great happy medium for super armor in SSB4[/drupal]
SSB in general had managed to disappoint me about how it favors speedsters. Surprisingly, it's most balanced in a mode like 15 Minute Melee (certain shenanigans aside), but it says something when Pikachu has the KO high score out of all my characters, and Marth still has one of my higher 15MM scores, when both are ridiculously safe. (Pikachu's brokenness in 15MM, ironically, led to me finding out how brilliant the mode, not to mention Pichu's self-damaging, is.) And, of course, human players know how to abuse things that can give power characters grief, like unconditional flinching. Heck, back when Melee was first out, I already figured to kite anybody who relied purely on power.
There are plenty of problems that contribute to that. The most blatant by far is the unconditional flinching problem. Any time you ever get hit, you flinch and if you were in the middle of an attack, you get interrupted. I haven't forgotten when somebody made a parody where Goku from Dragon Ball Z tried to use the Kamehameha only to get stopped by Game & Watch bonking him at the last second. Granted, that's not even canon behavior, as Goku would work with hand-to-hand first and only use Kamehameha as necessary, but Goku even flinching against a weak attack is ridiculous when he was able to shake off bullets in his original Dragon Ball introduction. The parody isn't even more extreme than an exaggeration, because Bowser can get flinch-trapped in the actual SSBs against any sense of logic. 1P modes also have enemy groups generally being FAR bigger problems than solo enemies.
Naturally, better knockback resistance would be required to end those shenanigans. Then Kid Icarus Uprising comes along and I become impressed by how it handles knockback resistance. (Forget for a moment that an Aries Claws set can become downright ridiculous.) Why?
Well, let's take a look at my own standpoint about superarmor and others' as well, just to compare:
*Basic logic:
-I want actual momentum and working tactics with power characters
-Other players want getting hit to be punished
*Power system provides Super Armor:
-I get KB immunity I can activate at any time
-Other players can avoid getting hit and try to see if they can wait until I fizzle
*Super Armor uses space:
-Efficient space usage for me, and I have plenty more for other options anyway
-Other players get more space for what they want
*Getting hit by a standard attack:
-Me: Stop that, I'm ticklish.
-Other players lose plenty of momentum just from the KB, but don't want getting hit happening to begin with
It's the best of both worlds: I get the ability to fight off speed abuse, and other players still keep their own style of gameplay at work. Here's the Fridge Brilliance behind super armor being a part of the power system in KIU:
*From a thematic standpoint, you can get power but you have to prove you deserve it or it will be worthless and you will just burn out. The power system gives you a limiting number of chances to defeat less powerful opponents, but ways to deal with the shenanigans they could pull.
*Gameplay wise, you can't shrug off knockback forever. If your armor powers run out, you will become vulnerable to unconditional flinching abuse. You simply would want to deal enough damage before that happens so that speedsters won't get to have a field day with you. (This is why with power weapons you actually want plenty of options rather than leveled powers, despite leveled powers typically using fewer spaces per charge.) Luckily, being immune to knockback when you want is a boon because it keeps your momentum from being disrupted.
*The armor powers, of course, require space that could be use for other powers. Other players would use that space for more or stronger powers. The good news is, though, that armor powers do have their definite worth, though that means for heavy duty guys that replacing them would have to be thought out well.
*A nice side effect is that defensive power is as useful as you want it to be. The non-armor guy won't have any drastic changes to playstyle except being forced to be patient against armor guys, who can KB them without fear of being KBed in return. The armor guy, on the other hand, won't lose momentum if they get hit, so anything that doesn't deal considerable damage will be shrugged off, which allows tanking tactics to actually work well.
Of course, the power system isn't quite ironed out, since you can have your powers wasted because of blatant matchup problems and surviving when vulnerable isn't rewarded whatsoever. In addition, Super Armor + Lightweight proves laughable at doing anything useful against more extreme cases of kiting, such that I ended up coming with a power idea for dealing with it:
http://real-game-balance.blogspot.com/2012/07/kid-icarus-uprising-power-idea-knight.html
And let's not forget that SSB has different mechanics compared to Kid Icarus Uprising. Notably, the objective in SSB is ring out, without condition. (Though that would mean giving characters like Bowser high KB growth so that they can actually KO with weaker attacks would help.) Kid Icarus Uprising, you must simply deal enough damage to each opponent. So armor powers would have to be nerfed in comparison to prevent things like stock camping. But as long as there is usable super armor, that's what I'm asking.
And I posted about the idea as well:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=324910
SSB in general had managed to disappoint me about how it favors speedsters. Surprisingly, it's most balanced in a mode like 15 Minute Melee (certain shenanigans aside), but it says something when Pikachu has the KO high score out of all my characters, and Marth still has one of my higher 15MM scores, when both are ridiculously safe. (Pikachu's brokenness in 15MM, ironically, led to me finding out how brilliant the mode, not to mention Pichu's self-damaging, is.) And, of course, human players know how to abuse things that can give power characters grief, like unconditional flinching. Heck, back when Melee was first out, I already figured to kite anybody who relied purely on power.
There are plenty of problems that contribute to that. The most blatant by far is the unconditional flinching problem. Any time you ever get hit, you flinch and if you were in the middle of an attack, you get interrupted. I haven't forgotten when somebody made a parody where Goku from Dragon Ball Z tried to use the Kamehameha only to get stopped by Game & Watch bonking him at the last second. Granted, that's not even canon behavior, as Goku would work with hand-to-hand first and only use Kamehameha as necessary, but Goku even flinching against a weak attack is ridiculous when he was able to shake off bullets in his original Dragon Ball introduction. The parody isn't even more extreme than an exaggeration, because Bowser can get flinch-trapped in the actual SSBs against any sense of logic. 1P modes also have enemy groups generally being FAR bigger problems than solo enemies.
Naturally, better knockback resistance would be required to end those shenanigans. Then Kid Icarus Uprising comes along and I become impressed by how it handles knockback resistance. (Forget for a moment that an Aries Claws set can become downright ridiculous.) Why?
Well, let's take a look at my own standpoint about superarmor and others' as well, just to compare:
*Basic logic:
-I want actual momentum and working tactics with power characters
-Other players want getting hit to be punished
*Power system provides Super Armor:
-I get KB immunity I can activate at any time
-Other players can avoid getting hit and try to see if they can wait until I fizzle
*Super Armor uses space:
-Efficient space usage for me, and I have plenty more for other options anyway
-Other players get more space for what they want
*Getting hit by a standard attack:
-Me: Stop that, I'm ticklish.
-Other players lose plenty of momentum just from the KB, but don't want getting hit happening to begin with
It's the best of both worlds: I get the ability to fight off speed abuse, and other players still keep their own style of gameplay at work. Here's the Fridge Brilliance behind super armor being a part of the power system in KIU:
*From a thematic standpoint, you can get power but you have to prove you deserve it or it will be worthless and you will just burn out. The power system gives you a limiting number of chances to defeat less powerful opponents, but ways to deal with the shenanigans they could pull.
*Gameplay wise, you can't shrug off knockback forever. If your armor powers run out, you will become vulnerable to unconditional flinching abuse. You simply would want to deal enough damage before that happens so that speedsters won't get to have a field day with you. (This is why with power weapons you actually want plenty of options rather than leveled powers, despite leveled powers typically using fewer spaces per charge.) Luckily, being immune to knockback when you want is a boon because it keeps your momentum from being disrupted.
*The armor powers, of course, require space that could be use for other powers. Other players would use that space for more or stronger powers. The good news is, though, that armor powers do have their definite worth, though that means for heavy duty guys that replacing them would have to be thought out well.
*A nice side effect is that defensive power is as useful as you want it to be. The non-armor guy won't have any drastic changes to playstyle except being forced to be patient against armor guys, who can KB them without fear of being KBed in return. The armor guy, on the other hand, won't lose momentum if they get hit, so anything that doesn't deal considerable damage will be shrugged off, which allows tanking tactics to actually work well.
Of course, the power system isn't quite ironed out, since you can have your powers wasted because of blatant matchup problems and surviving when vulnerable isn't rewarded whatsoever. In addition, Super Armor + Lightweight proves laughable at doing anything useful against more extreme cases of kiting, such that I ended up coming with a power idea for dealing with it:
http://real-game-balance.blogspot.com/2012/07/kid-icarus-uprising-power-idea-knight.html
And let's not forget that SSB has different mechanics compared to Kid Icarus Uprising. Notably, the objective in SSB is ring out, without condition. (Though that would mean giving characters like Bowser high KB growth so that they can actually KO with weaker attacks would help.) Kid Icarus Uprising, you must simply deal enough damage to each opponent. So armor powers would have to be nerfed in comparison to prevent things like stock camping. But as long as there is usable super armor, that's what I'm asking.
And I posted about the idea as well:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=324910
