Jab Cancels Effectiveness

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Does anyone really know the true effectiveness about Shiek's jab canceling in this game?

I am hoping Sheik might follow the following idea as Falco did in Brawl.

Anyway, jab1 is weight based knockback which means it's effectiveness will remain the same at any percent. I am hoping the effect would go like this.

Spoiler

Frames | Sheik | Opponent
0 | Jab1 input |
1 | start-up |
2 | hitbox | hitlag
freeze | hitlag | hitlag
3 | hitbox |stun
4 | lag | stun
5 | lag | stun
6 | lag | stun
7 | lag | stun
8 | lag | stun
9 | lag | stun
10 | lag | stun
11 | lag | stun
12 |lag | stun
13 | lag | air time
14 | lag |landing lag
15 | lag | landing lag
16 | lag | landing lag
17 |lag | landing lag
18 | First Action Frame | First Action Frame

This was the general flow of things in Brawl when I was doing frame advance testing on Falco's jab1 in brawl. A character would get out of stun time before jab is finished, but the air time is so short that not many characters could do anything about it other than jump. Jumping is not terrible because it means a person is airborne without any jump now. Some characters could attack if they had a fast enough aerial, but not all had a fast aerial in Brawl. Finally, due to how little a person could do in the air to get away they would touch the ground before anything else happened causing them to go through the 4 frames of mandatory landing lag. More for any move they started that did not auto-cancel.

Therefore, I think Sheik might be able to do something similar I saw Brawl Falco doing by having a jab1 that could be used. Judging form the test my friend and I did on Zelda it seems that the stun time is even long potentially. However, I have no WiiU and regular person to pay against to test this at all.

I was wondering if anyone tested this stuff with a friend at all to do jab1 -> grab, jab2 -> ftilt and with various ways of escaping. Using wind boxes, jumping, aerial, and shield to get away. I think it would be useful information depending upon the match-up.

 

[Jaxas]

Does anyone really know the true effectiveness about Shiek's jab canceling in this game?

I am hoping Sheik might follow the following idea as Falco did in Brawl.

Anyway, jab1 is weight based knockback which means it's effectiveness will remain the same at any percent. I am hoping the effect would go like this.

Spoiler

Frames | Sheik | Opponent
0 | Jab1 input |
1 | start-up |
2 | hitbox | hitlag
freeze | hitlag | hitlag
3 | hitbox |stun
4 | lag | stun
5 | lag | stun
6 | lag | stun
7 | lag | stun
8 | lag | stun
9 | lag | stun
10 | lag | stun
11 | lag | stun
12 |lag | stun
13 | lag | air time
14 | lag |landing lag
15 | lag | landing lag
16 | lag | landing lag
17 |lag | landing lag
18 | First Action Frame | First Action Frame

This was the general flow of things in Brawl when I was doing frame advance testing on Falco's jab1 in brawl. A character would get out of stun time before jab is finished, but the air time is so short that not many characters could do anything about it other than jump. Jumping is not terrible because it means a person is airborne without any jump now. Some characters could attack if they had a fast enough aerial, but not all had a fast aerial in Brawl. Finally, due to how little a person could do in the air to get away they would touch the ground before anything else happened causing them to go through the 4 frames of mandatory landing lag. More for any move they started that did not auto-cancel.

Therefore, I think Sheik might be able to do something similar I saw Brawl Falco doing by having a jab1 that could be used. Judging form the test my friend and I did on Zelda it seems that the stun time is even long potentially. However, I have no WiiU and regular person to pay against to test this at all.

I was wondering if anyone tested this stuff with a friend at all to do jab1 -> grab, jab2 -> ftilt and with various ways of escaping. Using wind boxes, jumping, aerial, and shield to get away. I think it would be useful information depending upon the match-up.

Well I definitely know that as an ex- main I go for jab cancels probably way more than I should, but they do work decently.
However, they're definitely not 'true' - Sheik's Jab2 doesn't even true combo into RapidJab (characters like Luigi can seemingly Nair out every time, making jab unsafe on hit).

Anyways, from what little I've used Jab2 seems to set up for grab/ftilt/dtilt (my usual go-to options) better than Jab1, but I'm not sure how much of that is that I'd use Jab2 a lot as Falco.

Though if someone could actually gather the hard data on Sheik's jab, that'd be great. I would, but I don't have a 60FPS capture card unfortunately

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

They do not have to be true at all. The main thing is if you can get away with using it without being punished for it. Or it be difficult to punish.

Brawl and Smash 4 have virtually nothing that is safe except when you actually hit something and cause them to go into hitstun. This makes it risky to throw out really any sort of move at all in this game. The point about using jabs is that they are relatively safe on hitting nothing, hitting something, and hitting a shield. Its a great all-around move to several situations.

At the very least, you can attempt to jab2 -> rapid jab someone's shield to make them have to work at when to grab or not. The benefit now is that you can go into a rapid jab finisher as Sheik as well preventing people to SDI behind you as they could in Brawl. However, you also have the option to jab -> shield, jab -> roll, jab -> grab, etc.

Jab forces them to react with limited options and might not always have an option to punish you. If the best a person can do to escape jab -> ftilt or jab -> grab is jumping this is perfectly fine for you. Being in the air sucks in this game now and jab created a situation that is pretty favorable.

Depending upon the match-up those options might be incredibly limiting. ZSS has a 16 frame bloody shield grab. and Sheik's ending lag on jab1 at worst is -15 frames. Not to mention whatever the shield stun time is on the move with some reaction.

When there are very few moves you can throw out there without getting punished jab seems pretty good solution to several situations compared to overextending. SH Fair I am not a huge fan of in this game because the range on the move is incredibly short and you commit for such a long time after the move along with it having a pretty long start-up time.