• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Is there something I'm doing wrong?

MaPow

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
96
Location
Altamonte Springs Florida
My friends and I are new to melee. We've been playing seriously for roughly 2 weeks (our tech skill is mediocre). There are four of us who are around the same level of play, but one of them beats me nearly every time. He loses to people I can beat, so its not like he's better than everyone. He's a Marth main, so I thought since the matchup is so bad that that was the reason why I was losing so much. But he still pounds me with his sheik, luigi, and dr. Mario. There's nothing special that he is doing. He just knows the way I play. I never have the courage to try to land a rest because I never see an opportunity against him. Is there something I can implement in my game to make me less predictable? Is there a way I can practice tech skill and DI (none of us can DI well)? When I watch Hbox or Mango they seem to be navigating the stage so quickly. How can I learn to play that way? I feel like I've got too much into the match ups that I can no longer play a smart puff. If anyone could help me it would be well appreciated.:039:
 

OliClutch117

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
141
Location
Altimonte Springs Fl
For practicing tech just check the board for guides. Learn all of your characters hitboxes and know the knock back of your moves. That way when you approach you can get them.
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
4,903
Location
Lakewood, WA
3DS FC
4511-0472-1729
First of all, if you have any footage of yourself playing, that would be extremely helpful.

It just sounds like that friend has a better grasp of the matchup versus Puff than your other friends. You'll just need to improve your basic understanding of the game, along with the specific matchups that you're struggling in, to really see yourself improve.

here are some things to consider:
Can you use your tech-skill consistently? (dashdancing, wavedashing, wavelanding, etc.) Do you apply it in matches?
- Wavedashing is very helpful to give yourself a better control of space and the stage, such as how Hbox and Mango control their character so well. Learn how to waveland, dashdance, wavedash and just generally improve of understanding your own character. And of course, you should have down L-cancelling asap. Just mess with your character a lot so you feel comfortable with their strengths and weaknesses, so you understand their capabilities and limitations in terms of mobility and know how to utilize the pros to their fullest. I won't go too in-depth on this, there are 100 guides on tech skill all around the forums so just look around.
Do you find yourself spamming specific moves, like bair?
- To reduce predictability, you need to not only use different moves, but change how you use your moves. For instance, jumping at your opponent with a bair or fair may work sometimes, but sooner enough they'll expect it and react. Delay your aeriels, wait until after double jumping sometimes, fast-fall sometimes but not always, etc. If what you're doing isn't working, try something new. Hell, try running straight at your opponent and see how they act. You don't need to space with bairs to be safe, simply running at them is more safe than you might think as you can shield almost instantly when you see them do something. This is a great way of baiting your marth friend to through out an fsmash, you simply guard it and punish him with a fair out of your shield or even a rest if you're close enough.
What moves do you find yourself getting hit with a lot by your opponent?
- Don't give your opponent too much credit, or rather their character. If you're getting hit by a lot of fsmashes, then stay closer to him and smack him for it or simply be safer with your approaching and be ready to shield them. If you're getting hit by a ton of aeriels, stay more grounded and plan out your jumps better. Every character has a variety of strengths and weaknesses you need to get used to and learn to abuse individually. For instance, if you're jumping around spamming bairs versus marth, that's actually bad. It makes it easier for him to space you and hit you when he finds openings, since he generally has more range. Puff may be a generally defensive player, but marth is better at spacing you out, so don't be afraid to get close to marth where his attacks are generally less effective, plus you can duck under his standing grab and rest him. Just think about what moves are giving you trouble, and think about the weaknesses of that particular move and how you can counter it.
Do you keep safety in mind while playing?
- As the famous words from isai, "Don't get hit." Remember that, typically, this game isn't about killing your opponent. It's about surviving, and every hit matter. Focus more on not getting hit and less on landing hits if you need to. If you ever do something and you get punished or hit for it, reconsider it and think carefully before doing it again. Think about your risk/reward, and try to stay on the safer side. Shield more, retreat more, wavedash back more, roll more, etc. but don't do anything too much and become predictable, especially rolling. Learning more about DI is a great way to improve survivability, just look more into it as there are many resources on the forum about this. To give you the basic rundown, you have Survivial DI to live kill moves (aiming your trajectory towards the top corners to increase the room you have to travel before reaching the kill boundaries, done by holding analogue stick up if you're launched left/right, or holding it left/right if you're launched up based on whichever corner is closer) and you have Combo DI (to get out of combos, typically holding away from your opponent or any other direction to mess up their combo).
Do you make predictions while playing?
- This is a huge part of playing puff, since she's so slow. Being reactive is good as well, but the way to truly dominate with puff is to be good at predicting your opponent and locking down their options. Throw out attacks that predict your opponents actions while also being safe, this is what Hbox and other top puff players do. It may look like "bair spam," but most of the time it's well calculated and thought-out aeriel placement that leads to great success. Think about it this way, when you throw out a predictive attack (i.e. one that is placed to predict movement and will otherwise miss) either 1. they run into your attack and get hit, 2. nothing happens and you retreat safely, or 3. they expected it, you failed to retreat safely and you get punished. A good player will mix up a lot and know how to effectively minimize the possibility of #3, making your opponent feel trapped and uncertain what to do. Here's an example of this: you jump towards your opponent and they start shielding because they anticipate an attack, instead of attacking them directly you double jump and bair right above their head while retreating back to where you were, you bair again right before landing. If they jumped out of shield initially, they'll have jumped into the first bair and gotten hit. If they either try to roll towards where you were, or try to run towards you to punish you, they're get smacked by the second bair. This is great, you rolled the dice with little-to-no chance of loss (theoretically) instead of simply trying to hit them dead on with an attack which is much more unsafe. Think about this, and learn to adapt it into your style as a puff player, but don't solely rely on it.


I hope this helped out, if you have any questions at all please feel free to ask. :) And welcome to the smashboards!
 

MaPow

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
96
Location
Altamonte Springs Florida
Wow thanks! I definitely need to practice techs that I'm not to good at. I definately noticed that when i played friendlies at a local tourney at UCF (which Hbox was just there it was great). The biggest two techs I'm not very consistsnt with being SHFFLing and wavelanding. And I found two really good guides on how to learn stuff like that. Also learning to DI away and playing it safe (especially against Marth) will help a ton because when I get pissed and just inadvertently DI toward him, and I keep getting hit. When I'm mad I just play as auto-pilot/agro puff I need to learn to keep my head and play that SMART puff. Also, I just began to start predicting Marth's Fsmashes because my friend throws them out a lot. I usually shield it then come out with a Fair, or just stay out of range and punish with a bair. This leads to another problem I've come across. Let's say I punish with a Fair OoS, what's next? I usually keep Fairing to try and get him off-stage, but sometimes he hits with his Fair or even like a getup attack if he's laying down. Are there any better options after jiggz punishes with Fair/Bair?
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
4,903
Location
Lakewood, WA
3DS FC
4511-0472-1729
Yeah, the tough part about marth is that your DI is a mixup, because if you hold away to avoid fthrow followups, then he can downthrow and you'll DI in towards him, which is bad. And vice-versa, if you DI inwards expecting a dthrow, he can fthrow. The best thing is to just avoid being grabbed as much as you can, which is true for many of the matchups because of how brutal followups can be on puff, such as shiek's fair, fox uair, falcon uair combos, etc. Luckily, you can duck a lot of these grabs, which makes them extremely hesitant to throw out grabs if you can prove to them that you'll rest them for it.

For punishing marth's fsmash, it really depends on your positioning and knockback. So yeah, like you said, Fair OoS is usually your go-to punish. Usually, it's just about knowing when and when not to continue your strings. I hope you're familiar with crouch cancelling, I'll be bringing it up a few times here. So lets say you land a fair and get a knockdown, typically the best option here is to position yourself, not to keep attacking. Therefore, if you're expecting a getup attack, simply land right next to him and either shield (into rest or other aeriels OoS) or crouch cancel forward smash, depending on your percent and how you're feeling. If he techs instead, you should be ready for this too. Instead of landing next to him, double jump and Bair him if he techs behind you, fair him if you techs away from you, or do land and fsmash/rest/do whatever you have time for if he techs in place. This is an example of positioning yourself to give yourself a huge advantage, granting you great followup options. You should be familiar with how much hitstun you get off of fair and bair, so don't try to hit them more unless you're confident in landing your hits. Don't feel bad for simply hitting him once and retreating, he took damage and you didn't, no need to do anything risky. Keep in mind that if you're close enough, you can jump OoS towards him and rest the ending lag of the fsmash, but this takes some practice. If you haven't done much rest punishing OoS before, here's what I suggest: practice versus a lower-level (2-5) captain falcon com on final destination, and simply back away from him on the floor until he does his side-b. Simply shield it and rest punish him. Do this until you're comfortable, and then try it on other moves. If you have friends willing to help, that makes it much easier to learn.
 

MaPow

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
96
Location
Altamonte Springs Florida
Sweet. I now understand the whole thing about positioning myself so I can react properly. Except against marth I sometimes mess up my positioning and get tippered :mad:. I definitely need to practice rest OoS and crouch resting grabs. Do you SH OoS and out of your crouch to land rest? Another thing I noticed in tournament matches is that Hbox will SHFFL an Uair -> Utilt -> rest, are there anymore solid rest set ups against people who can't simply be up thrown to rest? Or is there a guide to rest setups? That would help a ton because a rest can not only kill at low percents but it ruins my friends self esteem and I usually win when I can land one or two :)
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
4,903
Location
Lakewood, WA
3DS FC
4511-0472-1729
Yeah, typicially you'll short hop OoS and float over them and rest. You can do the same from crouch cancel, but you can also fsmash them from crouch cancel which is obviously safer and sometimes more worth going for than rest.

typically, you're going to want to use uair to cover space and throw them out in a similar predictive way as your other aeriels, it just takes a lot more mastery and understanding of how people want to move around the map to really do this effectively, so take it slow at first and don't fish for it too much. Other rest setups are usually just tech/getup predictions, laggy move punishes, jab resets, missed tech punishes (usually on platforms), utilts, and uairs. If you're not familiar with jab resets, learn them. Seriously. You can also rest out of a lot of other things, like dair and pound for instance (and sing :rolleyes:) but they're not typically worth going for. Usually it's about knowing how to get the setup, and making sure you capitalize. Often times with reads and such. For instance, here's a trick I did versus a shiek player in a tournament a bit ago: I landed on front of his shield and held duck, he tried to grab me and I rested him. Next stock, I did the exact same thing, except I knew he wouldn't be dumb enough to grab again, so I landed right on front of his shield and did a Utilt instead, which would normally be unsafe but I knew he would try to jump OoS this time. I was right, landed the utilt and got another rest on him.

It's about making your opponent scared to do things, and then punishing them for being flustered even more. Puff is very mind-gamey character and work well off of your opponents frustration, which is why I love the character so much. You should be able to find more info in Mahone's thread
 

MaPow

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
96
Location
Altamonte Springs Florida
Nice. I really need to focus on mixing it up so I can feed off their frustration and build confidence for myself.
Thanks so much Krynxe, this really helped :). Is there anything else I should work on besides SHFFLing, wavedashing/landing, rest setups, and dashdancing that would help me improve my puff?
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
4,903
Location
Lakewood, WA
3DS FC
4511-0472-1729
dashdancing is really low priority for puff, because she doesn't gain all too much from it as opposed to faster characters. If you can, practice your edge-guarding/gimping a lot. Play around with the ledge and become familiar with it. Otherwise, you should be good.

Glad I can help :)
 

Massive

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
2,833
Location
Kansas City, MO
I'd put some emphasis on offstage game if you're trying to get better.

Jigglypuff has the advantage of being able to go all the way off the stage in almost any direction and then getting back. If you knock someone off the stage and they're recovering, don't wait for them to get the ledge, follow them off the stage and finish the job. Ledge guarding/ledge games are what you do if they're too close/low/high to intercept with aerials.

You can practice this at a very rudimentary level by chasing CPUs off stage (like off in magnifier even) and gimping their recoveries. Even though CPUs usually don't try to re-recover, this is actually decent practice for marth since he's basically screwed if you stop his horizontal momentum on recovery anyway.
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
4,903
Location
Lakewood, WA
3DS FC
4511-0472-1729
Hope you can learn stuff here on the boards too, so you guys can all improve together :)
 
Top Bottom