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Is SmashDI possible without the C-Stick?

Joe73191

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I seem to play better and my tech skill is better with the Wii-mote and nunchuck, but it has no c-stick so I never smash DI.
I have been using the gamecube controller recently because I feel that I don't want to limit myself by not having an option and that I should just practice with gamecube controller until my tech skill is back to the way it was before (or better)

Is there even a way to smashDI with out the c-stick?
 

DrinkingFood

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AFAIK you can't smash DI with the c-stick (brb gonna test in dophin). It's only done with the control stick.
Actually you can SDI with the C-stick, I just tested it in frame advance in dolphin. But the game only recognizes the c-stick once before you have to return it to neutral, so rolling the c-stick as most people do to SDI with the control stick is not a valid strategy.
Automatic smash DI can be done by holding either stick tho, with the c-stick taking priority.
 
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Joe73191

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the terminology is not as important. My point is that using both the control stick and c-stick together results in better DI which the wii-mote/nunchuck does not have. Which means the gamecube controller has better DI capacity unless you can somehow get the same result without using the c-stick.

For instance in the custom controls on Wii-mote/nunchuck u can set it to "shake smash" meaning shaking the wii-mote results in a smash attack. Shaking the wii-mote being equal to the c-stick. It can be used for smash attacks or air attacks like the c-stick. This results in using it when u don't want to 99% of the time though. Also I'm not sure if this even does the DI the way the c-stick would.

Does control stick+A equal c-stick DI the same way it does a smash attack?

I really don't know why I'm asking or what kind of answer I'm looking for. I really just want to DI better with wii-mote/nunchuck lol.
 

DrinkingFood

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We answered your question. You can smash DI just fine with the nunchuck control stick. The Gamecube control stick is what most people use for smash DI, not the c-stick, and the nunchuck control stick is equivalent to that.
 

Joe73191

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I get that part, but does that mean that using the control-stick and the c-stick together makes no difference and does nothing more than just using the control-stick?

Using both has absolutely no effect on DI?
 

Chevy

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Mar 12, 2014
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I get that part, but does that mean that using the control-stick and the c-stick together makes no difference and does nothing more than just using the control-stick?

Using both has absolutely no effect on DI?
It would only really have an effect if you learned double stick DI. Which is holding the C-stick one direction for the small ASDI bonus, and using the control stick for smash DI and regular DI. So it could potentially have a very small boost if you learned the most compllicated DI technique.
 

DrinkingFood

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I get that part, but does that mean that using the control-stick and the c-stick together makes no difference and does nothing more than just using the control-stick?

Using both has absolutely no effect on DI?
Since rolling the cstick doesn't work for SDI (might work in Melee? not sure) you'd have to tap it repeatedly, really quickly, inhumanly quickly, to see a noticeable difference from using the c-stick. Technically it might make a difference, but it won't be by a significant amount.

For ASDI, however, the cstick is useful. It lets you ASDI straight down (pseudo CCing, where you aren't actually crouching but still ASDI down into the ground to land and cancel hitstun) since it takes priority over the control stick for ASDI, while inputting a trajectory DI on the control stick different from the angle of the SDI, allowing you to DI an upward+away sending move downward+away, optimizing your downward trajectory DI so that on the first frame (the frame of ASDI) you don't travel as far upward so that ASDI into the ground is effective at higher percents, enabling you to input a tech and survive some strong hits at high damage if see it coming and are trained enough to react quickly. It's called double stick DI or just DSDI like chevy said.

It's helpful for characters that will often be put in the position of a lot of lag at high damages, especially characters like sheik/marth/Mario who might have to up-b onto the stage, and experience enough lag for the opponent to land a strong hit. DSDI into the ground and hitting the shield button will often enable them to survive. Jiggs uses the same thing for missed rests or if the opponent spawns again after a successful rest with enough time to retaliate.

It can also be dangerous though, if the hit is strong enough to lift you too far off the ground to ASDI down in the first frame of knockback, you'll be sent at a much lower angle offstage. You may also miss the tech, so even if the move isn't TOO strong to ASDI into the ground, you could get knocked down and slide across the stage and then way off of it, with horizontal momentum and no vertical momentum other than your falling, leaving you at an even worse position.

So yes, adding the cstick can help in the long run if you put in the time and effort to learn to DSDI, but the overall difference will be miniscule because opportunities to use it are scarce, and there are ways of beating it fairly easy, such as going for vertical kill moves which beat pseudo CCing even at moderate percents because they send comparatively high off the ground on the first frame. How useful it is depends mostly on your character, from a range of "nearly useless" up to "somewhat useful". Don't stress over needing a cstick for it. Hopefully somewhere in here I answered your question by way of this much info.
 
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Mera Mera

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It would only really have an effect if you learned double stick DI. Which is holding the C-stick one direction for the small ASDI bonus, and using the control stick for smash DI and regular DI. So it could potentially have a very small boost if you learned the most compllicated DI technique.
I do this. For Lucario up B I DI with the joy stick and use ASDI with the c-stick and both help. With things like pikafire I do ASDI (hold the c-stick the direction I want to go) and SDI (mash the joystick in the direction I want to go).

I would say that if you want to take things to the highest level, you should probably use a gamecube controller. Up to you though. There might be a work around with the wiimote in nunchuck, I don't know much about them for smash.
 
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KayB

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AFAIK you can't smash DI with the c-stick (brb gonna test in dophin). It's only done with the control stick.
Actually you can SDI with the C-stick, I just tested it in frame advance in dolphin. But the game only recognizes the c-stick once before you have to return it to neutral, so rolling the c-stick as most people do to SDI with the control stick is not a valid strategy.
Automatic smash DI can be done by holding either stick tho, with the c-stick taking priority.
Out of curiosity, what is the most optimal way to SDI?
 

DrinkingFood

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Out of curiosity, what is the most optimal way to SDI?
Humanly, or Tool-assisted?

Humanly is to quickly roll the control stick in a quarter circle (and back again if you're fast enough) from one diagonal corner to an adjacent one. So like, survival SDI on falcon's knee, you'd want to SDI towards the stage, so you'd roll from the bottom diagonal corner facing the stage to the top diagonal corner facing the stage, and back again if you can. Actually, if you can do two quarter circles in that time, you'd be best to roll down from the top corner first first then back up, so as you come up, your stick is getting into position for trajectory DI (Up and towards stage).

Tool-assisted is to input a smash input every other frame of hitlag. Actually you might be able to do it every frame instead, but they'd have to be different directions by like a quarter of a circle. So, I think, if Knee'd to the right, you could SDI down to the left frame one of hitlag, up to the left frame two, down to the left frame three, etc repeat until the last frame of hitlag, then hold control stick up/towards stage for survival trajectory DI (and you'd hold cstick to the left so ASDI is to the left instead of automatically in the same direction as DI).
 

Badge

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In P:M/Brawl you can also hold the Control-Stick in a 45° angle to the direction you want to go and repeatedly mash the C-stick perpendicularily to the Control-Stick direction for SDI. This method gives you one SDI-input more per repetition than the quarter-circle method DrinkingFood described above (one input for moving the Control-Stick into position and two inputs for every time the C-Stick goes from neutral to the corner) and thus is better as long as you can't do quarter circle motions at least twice as fast as you can mash the C-Stick (ofc including getting to the C-Stick if necessary, so quarter circles are probably faster when you don't have a finger at the C-Stick). For a more indepth explanation see here - the dual-stick mechanics are the same as in Brawl in that regard.

For TAS SDI the alternating between two diagonal corners DF explained above and the method I just mentioned are the same.
 

DrinkingFood

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In P:M/Brawl you can also hold the Control-Stick in a 45° angle to the direction you want to go and repeatedly mash the C-stick perpendicularily to the Control-Stick direction for SDI. This method gives you one SDI-input more per repetition than the quarter-circle method DrinkingFood described above (one input for moving the Control-Stick into position and two inputs for every time the C-Stick goes from neutral to the corner) and thus is better as long as you can't do quarter circle motions at least twice as fast as you can mash the C-Stick (ofc including getting to the C-Stick if necessary, so quarter circles are probably faster when you don't have a finger at the C-Stick). For a more indepth explanation see here - the dual-stick mechanics are the same as in Brawl in that regard.

For TAS SDI the alternating between two diagonal corners DF explained above and the method I just mentioned are the same.
Wow I hadn't thought about this!
 
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