Is Smash 4 Competitve?

[Im Fragbait]

Sorry guys i dont thing that smash 4 has the ability to be a competitive game for a few very big reasons.

1.) Everyone Hates a C-Stick Spammer - You can completely tell that this game was made to be user friendly and in a sense feel like one button smash. Thats all fun and great for the people who dont know how to play, but for the people who do know how to play its a real pain, You cant move the character in the way you want, and theres no way to turn it off. The c-stick does smash attacks, tilts, dashes, and jabs. Honestly that's too many controls for one stick, and the reason they did it was basically to help the players who don't take this game competitively, I THOUGHT THIS GAME WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BUILT FOR BOTH FUN AND COMPETITVE, but how can you have that if your messing with the controls in a way that drastically impairs the competitive side of the game. take back what i said about this cause people seem to not agree that c-stick mapped to almost everymove in the game impairs competitve play

2.) Ledge mechanics - They have now taken out ledgehogging, one of the most competitive features of smash itself has been removed from the game. Im sorry but this is a huge turn off to the game, it honestly completely takes the Risk/Reward factor that smash has always had and literally ****s on it. I MEAN WHAT HAVE WE TURNED INTO PEOPLE, we used to be people who after they hit there opponent off the edge they would dive off and try to kill them, or at least grab the ledge, wait for them and bair them, NOW WERE THOSE PEOPLE WE USED TO LAUGH AT WHO AFTER THEY KNOCK SOMEONE OFFSTAGE THEY CAMP ON STAGE TO HIT THEM WITH AN F-SMASH. honestly this game is fun to play but it is in no way anywhere near the competitive side of the game. I still am upset with the ledge mechanics

3.) Lack of HYPE - Prepare your anus smash 4 enthusiasts cause this one is about to make you so butt hurt, Smash 4 is not hype, similarly to the way brawl was but not as bad. This game has nothing surprising, No "HOW THE HELL DID HE DO THAT" factor, its really disappointing, I was a smash 4 believer but as it got here i'm sorry it just doesn't fit in to the competitive smash series. The only time ive seen hype enter this game is when the game has gone down to time, a lot like how brawl was. Anyways the lack of hype comes from The ledge mechanics, spammy moves win, the game is pretty slow, and the engine really rewards defensive play, and scrub play. Whats scrub play? Im glad you asked, well scrub play is basically a mixture of projectile spam/camping, obsessive rolling, counters, and of course everyones favorite, Spamming Smash attacks. I might take this back with the new advanced techs speeding up the game, we will see, THE ONLY REAL PROBLEM I HAVE NOW IS THE LEDGE MECHANICS

4.) Advanced Movements - You guys can call me a melee ****** if you want but i liked brawl for this reason as well (ZSS Glide Toss). Advanced movements allow for an increase in options and inturn increase the level of mind games. Melee although a technical game, is also probably the most mind driven game because of the amount of options a player has. You can do so many things, and then theres smash 4 where i feel constricted to the basic moves my character has. For those of you who are gonna hate and say give it time, i say to you, sakurai learned his mistakes after melee, brawl had little to no advanced techs, because sakurai didnt want it that way, im sure over the 13 years since melee he has gotten rid of every possible advanced tech he can think of, AND IF IT MAKES IT ANYTHING LIKE MELEE HE WILL PATCH IT IN A SECOND, so yeah no advanced techs for smash 4. Take back what i said about this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vaR4RM-qr0&app=desktop

Let me wrap up everything in this last paragraph, I DONT HATE SMASH 4, i think its a very good game, however i think its a game to play FOR FUN not FOR GLORY so that being said im sorry if i offended anyone with my opinion but im open for debate, Trust me i want smash 4 to be competitve i just dont see it :/ MANY OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD HAVE CHANGED MY OPINION ON SMASH 4 SO I THANK THE MODS FOR LEAVING THIS OPEN... YA DONE GOOD COMMUNITY YA DONE GOOD. FOR GLORY!!!

ALSO, I would be a complete supporter of a Project M for SMASH 4 I feel that this game would be fantastic if it had project m mechanics, and techs. I love all the characters and there movesets and i think that they would be great in a pm like game.

AGAIN THE ONLY PROBLEM I HAVE NOW IS THE LEDGE MECHANICS I MIGHT GET OVER IT I MIGHT NOT BUT I LOVED THIS DEBATE THANK EVERYONE FOR PARTICIPATING AND HAVING AN OPEN MIND DURING THE DISCUSSION.

Anyways thanks for reading i would love to get opinions of others so comment your opinions below

 

[Indigo Jeans]

0: Competitiveness is subjective

1: The C-stick being a stick for smashes has been in since melee. It isn't anything new.

2: I would argue that every ledge grab giving invincibility is less "competitive" than only your first grab after going airborne doing so. Not only that, but ledge trumping adds a completely different level of depth to gameplay.

3: Hype generated depends on the spectators and maybe even the meta. If game X is this super amazing game that is incredibly complex and competitive but for some inexplicable reason nobody cares, does that mean it isn't competitive? To the average person, something like chess is boring as **** to watch, does that make high level play of chess uncompetitive?

4: I kind of agree with you on this point

ALSO: why does every game have to be like melee to be good?

 

[Muro]

I agree to a certain extent. I think the concept behind smash bros is amazing. Even if this is the weakest iteration in the series, it'll generate some hype. However with pretty much all the defensive mechanics buffed I don't see this game lasting as much as brawl even. It's especially infuriating when the developer works against the community and takes out ATs.

 

[ぱみゅ]

com·pet·i·tive
kəmˈpedədiv/

adjective: competitive
1. of, relating to, or characterized by competition.

Every game is by default competitive.

Consider yourself lucky I'm not closing this thread and infracting you right away. These kind of threads are almost always pointless.

 

[digiholic]

First, I really don't even understand what you're getting at with the c-stick thing. I mean, I completely do not understand your point. What did they change about the C-stick that suddenly makes it not competitive?

Second, ledge trumping adds as many gameplay decisions as edgehogging, and with the adjusted invincibility mechanics, means edgeguarding is a whole different beast all together. Some characters can combo after a ledge trump, others have stage spikes that will only work against someone hanging. All in all, a lot more involved and "hype" than kicking someone a few feet and grabbing a ledge from them and watching them die.

Third, with the buffs to recovery almost across the board, off-stage play is huge in Smash 4. Nearly everyone has some form of spike, and ways to bait and punish airdodges. This leads to an incredibly "hype" matches involving risky gimps, off-stage battles, and close recoveries. I don't really know how you could be more "hype" than that. (Also, by the way, your definition of "scrub play" seems kinda like a scrub complaint to me)

Fourth, give it some time. Wavedashing wasn't discovered day one, and we're seeing a lot of possible AT's that might break the game open once they're developed (Megaman has quite a few interesting things with Leaf Shield momentum and jump-cancelled tosses). You seem to be quick to assume that anything that happens will get patched out, but I don't think there's any data to support that. Wectoring was removed, because, let's face it, that tech made no sense whatsoever. The patch also re-introduced DI over Vectoring, which seems to me like there has been more instances of competitive depth being added than removed.

 

[Im Fragbait]

0: Competitiveness is subjective

1: The C-stick being a stick for smashes has been in since melee. It isn't anything new.

2: I would argue that every ledge grab giving invincibility is less "competitive" than only your first grab after going airborne doing so. Not only that, but ledge trumping adds a completely different level of depth to gameplay.

3: Hype generated depends on the spectators and maybe even the meta. If game X is this super amazing game that is incredibly complex and competitive but for some inexplicable reason nobody cares, does that mean it isn't competitive? To the average person, something like chess is boring as **** to watch, does that make high level play of chess uncompetitive?

4: I kind of agree with you on this point

ALSO: why does every game have to be like melee to be good?

1.) i just added that because that was its initial use and now everything is on that button making it hard to control

2.) i dont know it seems it would be but the recoveries of almost all the smash 4 characters are good enough where its not competitve (I DONT WANNA HEAR ABOUT LITTLE MAC XD)

3.) I would say it is a bit of both IMO crowds generate hype but hype generates crowds, so this point is debatable. also the point about chess is that yes its comptitve boring af to watch, so ya know what i realize what i said may have come off a bit wrong let me change that to I dont believe smash 4 is a spectator sport :D

4.) Thanks xD

and it doesnt its just i liked to old game for what it had and i dont really see the point of removing it like the game had some good mechanics and some bad, i just dont see the point in removing the good mechanics

 

[Im Fragbait]

I agree to a certain extent. I think the concept behind smash bros is amazing. Even if this is the weakest iteration in the series, it'll generate some hype. However with pretty much all the defensive mechanics buffed I don't see this game lasting as much as brawl even. It's especially infuriating when the developer works against the community and takes out ATs.

Completely agree brawl may have trumped something finally xD

 

[Gawain]

Your c-stick comment is pretty much nonsense in my opinion, but I mostly agree on the other front. There are just certain things that centralize the game too much (rolls, spots and shields mostly). Maybe stuff will change in the future but I don't think so. I'll still play it and its still good, but it's not as amazing as I had hoped for.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Alright well then that's reasonable enough, now that you've explained what you really meant by the hype and P:M remarks.

Although what you said about the C-stick still doesn't make sense... not all of those actions are mapped to it simultaneously, so what's the issue?

Also, don't double post. Edit a post instead if you have something else you want to say but forgot to add, or if you're replying to multiple people just quote them all in one post.

 

[Im Fragbait]

First, I really don't even understand what you're getting at with the c-stick thing. I mean, I completely do not understand your point. What did they change about the C-stick that suddenly makes it not competitive?

Second, ledge trumping adds as many gameplay decisions as edgehogging, and with the adjusted invincibility mechanics, means edgeguarding is a whole different beast all together. Some characters can combo after a ledge trump, others have stage spikes that will only work against someone hanging. All in all, a lot more involved and "hype" than kicking someone a few feet and grabbing a ledge from them and watching them die.

Third, with the buffs to recovery almost across the board, off-stage play is huge in Smash 4. Nearly everyone has some form of spike, and ways to bait and punish airdodges. This leads to an incredibly "hype" matches involving risky gimps, off-stage battles, and close recoveries. I don't really know how you could be more "hype" than that. (Also, by the way, your definition of "scrub play" seems kinda like a scrub complaint to me)

Fourth, give it some time. Wavedashing wasn't discovered day one, and we're seeing a lot of possible AT's that might break the game open once they're developed (Megaman has quite a few interesting things with Leaf Shield momentum and jump-cancelled tosses). You seem to be quick to assume that anything that happens will get patched out, but I don't think there's any data to support that. Wectoring was removed, because, let's face it, that tech made no sense whatsoever. The patch also re-introduced DI over Vectoring, which seems to me like there has been more instances of competitive depth being added than removed.

The whole point to the c-stick thing is it prevents me to moving the way i want to with my character, i dont know if people have to same problem but heres an example, i cant jab smash attack. THIS IS REALLY ANNOYING TO ME because its something i do regularly and i just end up being caught in my jab combo animation its very very annoying, ALSO i believe that it gives inexperienced players an advantage since scrubs tend to just c-stick.

Second no it honestly doesnt because theres no way to kill early in smash 4, the whole hype factor comes from someone being able to take the lead at any moment Ex. GAME 4, most hype match ever and saved the community from dying

Third Smash 4 lacks hype because its so easy to get back to the ledge its a game of edge guarding with f-smash and ko's and if you think having a amazing recovery is hype go look at some melee and pm combo videos and check that risky yet rewarding off stage play. AND THERE ARE NO OFFSTAGE BATTLES, NOONE LEAVES THE STAGE UNLESS THERE HIT. Punishing air dodges i will agree with though that is somewhat competitive

Fourth i dont think that there will be any advanced techs, sakurai has been against competitive play since the start and despite what he says about him wanting the game to be competitive i dont really think he feels that way. however Vectoring/DI good example i respect that.

 

[ぱみゅ]

1. Jab > Smash might just have a different timing, and it's easier to buffer it without needing the C-stick.

2. There is always the option to gimp.

3. Going offstage is character-dependent. Meta Knight, Marth, Lucina, Megaman, DDD (all characters I use) usually go offstage.

4. Sakurai stated many times that he DOES want a simple game that anyone can pickup and play and doesn't require a lot of complicated inputs to be played. Not like he doesn't want it to be deep, but he seems to want new players to join the community, and I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[Im Fragbait]

Okay for those of you who are fighting my comment about user-friendly controls i stand by what i say I understand there not all mapped out at the same time but im just saying it limits your options with things like Jab-> Smash attack, instead it jab combos which i am not a fan of. I understand not everyone feels this way but thats just kinda how i feel about it. I wish there was a way to turn it off but they dont have that in the controls section. In my opinion this control scheme set to benefit people who arent used to the conrols play the game hinders the ability of the competitive player to control there character in the way they want. Thats just how i feel about it you guys do not have to have the same opinion as me. i just wanna CC -> D-Smash or Jab -> F-smash without the c-stick messing me up

 

[ぱみゅ]

Oh, that one part. I don't like that either, but well, it's a different game so the mechanics are different.
Instead of complaining I roll with it.

 

[digiholic]

The whole point to the c-stick thing is it prevents me to moving the way i want to with my character, i dont know if people have to same problem but heres an example, i cant jab smash attack. THIS IS REALLY ANNOYING TO ME because its something i do regularly and i just end up being caught in my jab combo animation its very very annoying, ALSO i believe that it gives inexperienced players an advantage since scrubs tend to just c-stick.

I can jab-smash attack just fine, and my c-stick is set to Tilt. C-Stick has been smash attack since melee, and no one was complaining about it there. No matter what your C-stick is set to, you pretty much can't c-stick and expect to win. And I still have no idea what you mean about preventing you from moving how you want.

Second no it honestly doesnt because theres no way to kill early in smash 4, the whole hype factor comes from someone being able to take the lead at any moment Ex. GAME 4, most hype match ever and saved the community from dying

I'll give you that some characters have trouble with early kills, but with Rage, a player who manages to properly DI a fatal attack and come back with a huge percentage can do some major damage, not to mention the possibility of spikes and other gimps.

Third Smash 4 lacks hype because its so easy to get back to the ledge its a game of edge guarding with f-smash and ko's and if you think having a amazing recovery is hype go look at some melee and pm combo videos and check that risky yet rewarding off stage play. AND THERE ARE NO OFFSTAGE BATTLES, NOONE LEAVES THE STAGE UNLESS THERE HIT. Punishing air dodges i will agree with though that is somewhat competitive

It's only easy to get back if you let them. Bad players sit at the edge charging an F-Smash, good players try to make recovery difficult for the other player or just kill them outright. The fact that air dodges have huge lag means that all you have to do is go offstage and force them to dodge something, then land a powerful punish when they make it back on. There's plenty of hype if the people playing it are good at the game and willing to take risks. Right now, the biggest problem with competitive Smash 4 is the two-stock limit they put on. No one at Xanadu wants to take any risks since there's only two stocks, so they're drawing games out. Three stock is a bare minimum in my opinion, since the removal of Vectoring means that we're not seeing people surviving to 180% anymore.

Fourth i dont think that there will be any advanced techs, sakurai has been against competitive play since the start and despite what he says about him wanting the game to be competitive i dont really think he feels that way. however Vectoring/DI good example i respect that.

Sakurai dislikes competitive play, but Nintendo likes our money. They have done a lot in terms of making the game competitive, with For Glory mode (things can be said about forcing FD and two stocks, but those are really logistical problems with the online format, since it's not Nintendo's job to determine tournament legal stages), balance patches, and the upcoming online tourney mode. They won't ignore competitive players. The Gamecube adapters are testament to that. They made a completely new, unique to smash bros peripheral to let us use the controllers we've been using for more than a decade, and they sold out before the game even launched. They'd be stupid to not want our support, when we're buying much more than the casual audience. Sakurai is the director, but even he has to answer to the almighty profit margin.

 

[Im Fragbait]

1. Jab > Smash might just have a different timing, and it's easier to buffer it without needing the C-stick.

2. There is always the option to gimp.

3. Going offstage is character-dependent. Meta Knight, Marth, Lucina, Megaman, DDD (all characters I use) usually go offstage.

4. Sakurai stated many times that he DOES want a simple game that anyone can pickup and play and doesn't require a lot of complicated inputs to be played. Not like he doesn't want it to be deep, but he seems to want new players to join the community, and I see nothing wrong with that.

1. Yeah i understand theres different timings i just wish i didnt have to wait that time to throw out my smash attack

2. i agree with that on some level, i just feel its not as frequent as it should be limiting the hype

3. I agree its character-dependent but i also think that its not rewarding enough in this game

4. I agree that smash should be a game thats easy to pick up to play for fun, like melee was. but here let me explain this in terms of sports. So basketball i invite my friend to come over and play i teach him the rules and basic moves and stuff, and hes able to play a game of pickup in the driveway, but i wouldn't take him to a game in my basketball league, he'd get destroyed. I think Smash needs to be like that i think that there needs to be a fine line between casual and competitive like melee is but smash 4 doesn't seem to have the same thing.

 

[Lascol]

I think that Smash 4 can be the competitive platform in time. Melee will continue to be where it is for a while but hopefully than can both be played at an equally as exciting level eventually.

 

[Im Fragbait]

I can jab-smash attack just fine, and my c-stick is set to Tilt. C-Stick has been smash attack since melee, and no one was complaining about it there. No matter what your C-stick is set to, you pretty much can't c-stick and expect to win. And I still have no idea what you mean about preventing you from moving how you want.



I'll give you that some characters have trouble with early kills, but with Rage, a player who manages to properly DI a fatal attack and come back with a huge percentage can do some major damage, not to mention the possibility of spikes and other gimps.



It's only easy to get back if you let them. Bad players sit at the edge charging an F-Smash, good players try to make recovery difficult for the other player or just kill them outright. The fact that air dodges have huge lag means that all you have to do is go offstage and force them to dodge something, then land a powerful punish when they make it back on. There's plenty of hype if the people playing it are good at the game and willing to take risks. Right now, the biggest problem with competitive Smash 4 is the two-stock limit they put on. No one at Xanadu wants to take any risks since there's only two stocks, so they're drawing games out. Three stock is a bare minimum in my opinion, since the removal of Vectoring means that we're not seeing people surviving to 180% anymore.



Sakurai dislikes competitive play, but Nintendo likes our money. They have done a lot in terms of making the game competitive, with For Glory mode (things can be said about forcing FD and two stocks, but those are really logistical problems with the online format, since it's not Nintendo's job to determine tournament legal stages), balance patches, and the upcoming online tourney mode. They won't ignore competitive players. The Gamecube adapters are testament to that. They made a completely new, unique to smash bros peripheral to let us use the controllers we've been using for more than a decade, and they sold out before the game even launched. They'd be stupid to not want our support, when we're buying much more than the casual audience. Sakurai is the director, but even he has to answer to the almighty profit margin.

Good post man i agree with a lot of what you said, and you changed my opinion on a few things i just wish sakurai would let us be competitve LMFAO

 

[ZelDan]

What I don't like is that dash attacks are mapped to the C-stick in Smash 4. Kind of makes moving around and then trying transitioning into a smash more awkward.

I don't recall it being ahadled this way in previous smash iterations.

 

[Im Fragbait]

Every game is by default competitive.

Consider yourself lucky I'm not closing this thread and infracting you right away. These kind of threads are almost always pointless.

Also i dont think that this discussion is pointless i think that a lot of people are getting there opinions out there, But i understand what you mean by there almost always pointless, just people looking to argue, people being ignorant and what not, this thread isnt like that im just trying to hear what everyone has to say

Thanks for keeping it open

 

[digiholic]

I expect a few good competitive-helping patching right around the time Mewtwo comes out. If only because it'd be profitable to have more people actively playing the game learning the new techs when the DLC drops.

 

[Im Fragbait]

What I don't like is that dash attacks are mapped to the C-stick in Smash 4. Kind of makes moving around and then trying transitioning into a smash more awkward.

I don't recall it being ahadled this way in previous smash iterations.

It was actually like that in brawl as well, i only remember because i played ZSS and glide tossing became a huge habit of mine xD

I expect a few good competitive-helping patching right around the time Mewtwo comes out. If only because it'd be profitable to have more people actively playing the game learning the new techs when the DLC drops.

I havent heard much about it but people have said that mewtwo is gonna be the only DLC, is that true ... I WANT PICHU BACK :'(

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Second no it honestly doesnt because theres no way to kill early in smash 4, the whole hype factor comes from someone being able to take the lead at any moment

This comment just bugs me too much to stay silent.

There are lots of ways to kill early... For example, spikes are pretty abundant in the game.
The actual move OHKO's: Luigi's Shine, Jiggs' Rest (although it was weakened a bit), DDD's Up-B off-stage spike ability...

There are definitely a good few more I won't mention, but it is pretty easy to kill someone early on paper, of course this won't happen as often if they're GOOD.

 

[ZelDan]

It was actually like that in brawl as well, i only remember because i played ZSS and glide tossing became a huge habit of mine xD

Oh. Played Melee much more than Brawl so that's why I probably forgot

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think Smash needs to be like that i think that there needs to be a fine line between casual and competitive like melee is but smash 4 doesn't seem to have the same thing.

Yes but.... why? That's arbitrary at best.
I see it more like athletics: sprinting is a basic concept, but difficult to actually compete in, unless you dedicate YOURSELF.
You can be among the top quickly

Also i dont think that this discussion is pointless i think that a lot of people are getting there opinions out there, But i understand what you mean by there almost always pointless, just people looking to argue, people being ignorant and what not, this thread isnt like that im just trying to hear what everyone has to say

Thanks for keeping it open

To be fair, the discussion has been tame. Even if your third point on the OP was borderline offensive/flaming, everything else has run smoothly.

 

[RanserSSF4]

- The C-stick part I find pretty pointless.

- Although I do prefer the ledge mechanics in Melee or Brawl, I do think the new ledge mechanics in Smash 4 have potential. The problem is that not that many people go off stage to edgeguard. It's early, but some don't feel like doing it, even though they know they can get back on stage. I agree it's risky, but if you need to get the kill, go for it.

- Smash 4 is definitly not as hype to watch as Melee, so I agree with that, but lets be honest, both Melee and Smash 4 are completly different games. The one thing I disagree is that Smash 4, I do feel is more hype to watch than Brawl, just not as much as Melee. The only times I get bored of Smash 4 matches is if the matches contain characters that were designed to camp (DHD vs ROB for instant) or Ditto matches *Cough* Diddy vs Diddy *Cough* (I'm not a big fan Ditto matches except for certain ones, but that's it).

- For advanced movement, I'm kind of hit or miss about this. On one hand, I agree that some could get removed, but on the other hand, since Sakurai comfirmed he doesn't have plans to balance the game, unless there's a major problem, there's a chance some won't get removed (I did said CHANCE).

for the most part, I do agree to some extent, but I personally do think Smash 4 is more fun to watch than Brawl, but not as much as melee since Smash 4 isn't Melee. Besides, we have SL HG mode for players who like Melee or prefer aggressive play.

I really like Smash 4, but the problems it has makes playing aggressive very hard to do, unless you know what to do with your main. Smash 4 will be competitive regardless, and I do personally think it will last as long as Brawl, if not, possibly more than Brawl thanks to new modes (SL HG mode) or other testings we are doing. I just want both smash 4 and Melee to coexist peacefully.

 

[aethermaster]

You know, I was gonna make a long and detailed rant, but this thread doesn't deserve it.

Why can't we have all three? Let all three thrive and have their own hype levels and their own communities. Like I said before, if Sm4sh dies out, then that's the community's fault this time, not the game. As a game, 4 is balanced. It lacks ATs yes, but it's there and we have to accept it. If we don't accept that not every game will be Melee, and we have to try to mod every last detail to make it close to Melee, then we're seriously ****ed as a community.

 

[ATH_]

I love seeing people who think they can just say "Smash 4 is not hype" like it's a fact.
It's opinion based and an unexperienced perspective. Why the hell would you come in here to ask if it's competitive when obviously, it is. It may not be as competitive as you'd like it to be, or to your standards, but that does NOT make it non-competitive. Someone close this thread, please.

EDIT: Apologies, I was a little riled up (and harsh) before reading this thread and skimmed it too much.I'd recommend working on presentation as, the red text seems to make it look like that's the main focus, when it's also important what you say at the end. My bad.

EDIT 2 (God damnit): The reason I crossed out my text was not that it was untrue, but because it was targeting you when you obviously DO support Smash 4 becoming competitive. I personally am not a fan of your approach to it though.

 

[Im Fragbait]

I love seeing people who think they can just say "Smash 4 is not hype" like it's a fact.
It's opinion based and an unexperienced perspective. Why the hell would you come in here to ask if it's competitive when obviously, it is. It may not be as competitive as you'd like it to be, or to your standards, but that does NOT make it non-competitive. Someone close this thread, please.

EDIT: Apologies, I was a little riled up (and harsh) before reading this thread and skimmed it too much.I'd recommend working on presentation as, the red text seems to make it look like that's the main focus, when it's also important what you say at the end. My bad.

EDIT 2 (God damnit): The reason I crossed out my text was not that it was untrue, but because it was targeting you when you obviously DO support Smash 4 becoming competitive. I personally am not a fan of your approach to it though.

Thanks for understanding ill try to work on my approach a little bit more :D i realized reading through it again that i may have been a bit harsh too when describing the game sorry for the misunderstanding

 

[ATH_]

Thanks for understanding ill try to work on my approach a little bit more :D i realized reading through it again that i may have been a bit harsh too when describing the game sorry for the misunderstanding

All good!

 

[Im Fragbait]

People i would just like to make it clear

- just because i don't see the game as competitive doesn't mean i hate it i actually really enjoy it
- I made this thread to not only get my opinion out there but to also see the opinion of others in the community, If anyone has any nasty comments or ignorant **** to say you can stay quiet or your comment will be removed by a mod. THIS IS A THREAD THAT IS ACCEPTING AND TRYS TO UNDERSTAND OTHERS OPINIONS IF YOU DONT LIKE IT YOU CAN LEAVE
- i do believe that the two games can co-exist, hell brawl can even be apart of it xD
- I also am very accepting of others opinions and in a way a couple of the commentators on this thread changed my opinion so a thanks to them

Also im sorry to any mods that thought that this thread was just someone trying to get into arguments about the game, This thread is an attempt to CONSTRUCTIVELY DEBATE ABOUT SMASH 4.

 

[RanserSSF4]

People i would just like to make it clear

- just because i don't see the game as competitive doesn't mean i hate it i actually really enjoy it
- I made this thread to not only get my opinion out there but to also see the opinion of others in the community, If anyone has any nasty comments or ignorant **** to say you can stay quiet or your comment will be removed by a mod. THIS IS A THREAD THAT IS ACCEPTING AND TRYS TO UNDERSTAND OTHERS OPINIONS IF YOU DONT LIKE IT YOU CAN LEAVE
- i do believe that the two games can co-exist, hell brawl can even be apart of it xD
- I also am very accepting of others opinions and in a way a couple of the commentators on this thread changed my opinion so a thanks to them

Also im sorry to any mods that thought that this thread was just someone trying to get into arguments about the game, This thread is an attempt to CONSTRUCTIVELY DEBATE ABOUT SMASH 4.

Glad you understand. I do agree with some of your points, but I don't agree with everything you said, but I'm glad you understand. Just make sure you don't repeat the same mistake

 

[PKBeam]

The game involves a reasonable amount of skill, so it is competitive.
How competitive it is... that's a different question.

 

[Tonzura Koite]

You have not made an argument as to why Smash 4 is not competitive. With the random element of items and bad stages removed (which we've done since Smash 64), it is a competitive game that clearly rewards skill, not luck. Brawl's tripping alone made it less competitive in the purest sense than Smash 4.

Almost every point you made boils down to "Smash 4 isn't fun to watch" or "Smash 4 is a defensive game." Neither of these things make it non-competitive. For the vast majority of people, golf is not a hype spectator sport, but it's competitive.

P.S. I think Smash 4 is a ton of fun to watch, though.

 

[Raijinken]

Sorry guys i dont thing that smash 4 has the ability to be a competitive game for a few very big reasons.

1.) Everyone Hates a C-Stick Spammer - You can completely tell that this game was made to be user friendly and in a sense feel like one button smash. Thats all fun and great for the people who dont know how to play, but for the people who do know how to play its a real pain, You cant move the character in the way you want, and theres no way to turn it off. The c-stick does smash attacks, tilts, dashes, and jabs. Honestly that's too many controls for one stick, and the reason they did it was basically to help the players who don't take this game competitively, I THOUGHT THIS GAME WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BUILT FOR BOTH FUN AND COMPETITVE, but how can you have that if your messing with the controls in a way that drastically impairs the competitive side of the game.

2.) Ledge mechanics - They have now taken out ledgehogging, one of the most competitive features of smash itself has been removed from the game. Im sorry but this is a huge turn off to the game, it honestly completely takes the Risk/Reward factor that smash has always had and literally ****s on it. I MEAN WHAT HAVE WE TURNED INTO PEOPLE, we used to be people who after they hit there opponent off the edge they would dive off and try to kill them, or at least grab the ledge, wait for them and bair them, NOW WERE THOSE PEOPLE WE USED TO LAUGH AT WHO AFTER THEY KNOCK SOMEONE OFFSTAGE THEY CAMP ON STAGE TO HIT THEM WITH AN F-SMASH. honestly this game is fun to play but it is in no way anywhere near the competitive side of the game.

3.) Lack of HYPE - Prepare your anus smash 4 enthusiasts cause this one is about to make you so butt hurt, Smash 4 is not hype, similarly to the way brawl was but not as bad. This game has nothing surprising, No "HOW THE HELL DID HE DO THAT" factor, its really disappointing, I was a smash 4 believer but as it got here i'm sorry it just doesn't fit in to the competitive smash series. The only time ive seen hype enter this game is when the game has gone down to time, a lot like how brawl was. Anyways the lack of hype comes from The ledge mechanics, spammy moves win, the game is pretty slow, and the engine really rewards defensive play, and scrub play. Whats scrub play? Im glad you asked, well scrub play is basically a mixture of projectile spam/camping, obsessive rolling, counters, and of course everyones favorite, Spamming Smash attacks.

4.) Advanced Movements - You guys can call me a melee ****** if you want but i liked brawl for this reason as well (ZSS Glide Toss). Advanced movements allow for an increase in options and inturn increase the level of mind games. Melee although a technical game, is also probably the most mind driven game because of the amount of options a player has. You can do so many things, and then theres smash 4 where i feel constricted to the basic moves my character has. For those of you who are gonna hate and say give it time, i say to you, sakurai learned his mistakes after melee, brawl had little to no advanced techs, because sakurai didnt want it that way, im sure over the 13 years since melee he has gotten rid of every possible advanced tech he can think of, AND IF IT MAKES IT ANYTHING LIKE MELEE HE WILL PATCH IT IN A SECOND, so yeah no advanced techs for smash 4.

Let me wrap up everything in this last paragraph, I DONT HATE SMASH 4, i think its a very good game, however i think its a game to play FOR FUN not FOR GLORY so that being said im sorry if i offended anyone with my opinion but im open for debate, Trust me i want smash 4 to be competitve i just dont see it :/

ALSO, I would be a complete supporter of a Project M for SMASH 4 I feel that this game would be fantastic if it had project m mechanics, and techs. I love all the characters and there movesets and i think that they would be great in a pm like game.

Anyways thanks for reading i would love to get opinions of others so comment your opinions below

For like the 50th time, the game is completely competitive.

To address your points specifically, though...

1) There is literally no change if you can do a 1-frame flick, which is pretty simple. Increasing the technical skill ceiling for a technique takes away from the competitiveness? I've seen thousands of posts saying the opposite. If you're holding your thumb on the c-stick that long, then you're ignoring the other necessary buttons too much to claim mastery in the first place.

2) By revamping edgehogging to be a strategic choice instead of a no-brainer, they've increased the thought that has to go into the decision. Furthermore, seeing as you can now chase offstage and make it back more safely, and are thus encouraged to make riskier moves due to the reduction in risk. It also leads to trump-followup options, which again, increases the skill you have to have. You now have to earn what was once a free kill, and it's still easy to earn.

3) This is entirely irrelevant and subjective. Followups to a trump are hype. Unexpected offstage plays are hype. Having a mostly-viable roster is hype. It's a new game, we have no clue what on earth works and what doesn't. And, just like every single past game (bar glitches), everything is immune to "HOW DID HE DO THAT" if you know how the game works. "Scrub play" is irrelevant to competition by definition, and in all observed high-level play, it has been aggression, not defense, that is superior. For once, defense is viable, which may rub some people the wrong way (my shield has a purpose? how absurd!).

4) Unnecessary technical barriers have zero to do with the competitive validity of the game. If anything, with the presence of sufficient other options to allow for deep gameplay (which there are, believe it or not), technical barriers keep more people from competing, which is inhibitive to the growth of an esport. Above you mentioned a "fine line" between casual and competitive, which is what we have. What Melee has is a mile-long gorge between casual and competitive. It's far harder to even approach "decently skilled" play in Melee, and that gap turns away a lot of potential competitors. Any player with only average reflexes is utterly and insurmountably blocked from competing when too many ATs are present.

Of course, all of this goes out the window online, because no reasonable person would rely solely on aggressive play when innate network conditions mean you have to be playing the game a blind half second into the future instead of live. But that has nothing to do with real competition, which is played in person.

Edit: Sorry for sounding exasperated (or at least, that's how I think it sounds). I rather skipped to the reply box after reading your post without reading the discussion in between. You've got some valid points, if they were worded a bit confrontationally.

 

[Hameed Ziabari]

This is the same thing that happened with Street Fighter 4. People saw it wasnt third strike so they disregarded it. Just let the game develop. It isnt melee, and that isnt a bad thing. I love the new emphasis on footsies. Just because a game is simple doesnt make it boring. There may be less movement options, but that doesnt mean it sucks. Theres more of an emphasis on conditioning your opponent, and punishes are more stage control orientated then kills.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

'nuther melee fanboy, *sigh*

1) Is completely ridiculous. C-stick spammers, or any spammers at all have proven to be easy to beat. No they're not fun to play against, but you'll never fight them in tournaments except maybe round 1, you should never play them locally because you can control that, and For Glory was never about having fun, it's a place for good but not great players to practice until they can get tournament ready

2) ledge hogging was not a competitive mechanic, it was a mechanic that was in a competitive game. I'd say it was actually bad for the game because it made so many characters unviable. Less viable characters means less diversity, which means a polarized competitive scene, which means a smaller competitive scene, which means less competition. No it's not that simple, but saying the new ledge mechanics make the game less competitive is just stupid

3) Those zero to death combos weren't discovered in a month, nor will the advanced moves that will require immense skill to perform in sm4sh. Plus, if you watch any pro level match, there's plenty of hype. It usually revolves around baiting air dodges instead of hour long combos, but the hype is definitely there. Again, stupid thing to say that there's no hype.

4) advanced techniques have nothing to do with being competitive. In sm4sh, the better player will still win, now the worse player can actually learn from it without having to go online to learn how to do something. Just a melee fanboy running his stupid mouth.

In cases you didn't notice, I didn't think highly of the op. Sm4sh is far from perfect, but if you're going to complain, do it smarter than this, and saying a thread should be constructive doesn't actually make it

 

[Teh Sandwich]

I think it's funny how you started with this huge rant, now it's just a problem with the new ledge mechanics; which I think was one of the best changes is the smash bros series. Ledge hogging made for some way to easy ko's.

I think people are being way to bias about this game, and looking at it like its brawl before even giving it a chance. This game is great in my opinion.