Is Norfair still "No Fair"?

[epicnights]

With the days of refreshing ledge invincibility behind us, I'd like to take a look at one of the more controversial stages of the Brawl stagelist: Norfair.

MLG DC 2010, the first MLG to have Brawl as a part of the circuit, had a particularly large stagelist, including questionable stages such as Pictochat, Green Greens, and the focus of this post, Norfair. Norfair was frequently banned in Brawl due to all five of the platforms having grab-able ledges on the outer-facing sides. Due to ledge invincibility being refreshed upon ledge regrab, it was frequently banned to prevent stalling.

With the removal of ledge grab invincibility upon regrab in Smash 4, Norfair opens itself up as a possible counterpick for characters who excel in platform play. Do you think this change can allow Norfair to be a legal counterpick in Smash 4? Or do the hazards, which remain unchanged from brawl, make it unviable? Information on the hazards are available here. Shoutouts to ParanoidDrone and LiteralGrill for collecting the information on the hazards.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Anyone who pays any attention at all to my posts should know that I am an unabashed stage liberal who will happily play on stages like Gamer and Kalos Pokemon League. Therefore my personal opinion on Norfair is "bring it on".

I do not believe that Norfair is likely to receive widespread support among the rest of the playerbase, mostly due to the lava hazards. The rising lava floor isn't too awful, but the wall from the side can come at the same time and restrict the playing field to a single platform for a few seconds. The jets and wave from the background can be shielded but are still disruptive. (As a corollary, the safety capsule is not actually necessary in the slightest and is in fact a very bad place to be since you're a sitting duck for disjoints through the capsule walls until it reopens.)

For what it's worth, the stage is an amazing counterpick for dealing with Rosalina since Luma cannot shield or dodge any of the lava hazards. As a result, Rosalina has a hard time keeping Luma alive even without the opponent doing anything. (The lava wave, in particular, is guaranteed to hit Luma unless Rosalina enters the safety capsule. Remember what I said about that being a Very Bad Place To Be? Either way, Luma's going to eat some damage.)

In 8P Smash, the hazards get turned off. In such an environment, I can see the stage lending itself well to characters with ledge cancel shenanigans, such as Pikachu. Characters with high air mobility like Wario could probably camp out slower characters with reasonable success due to the shape.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Since I was tagged, I actually ran a tournament long ago with Norfair as a pick in Smash 4. It was universally still disliked. Even some top Brawl players who knew the stage having competed on it back then weren't fans now either. I don't think it's going to be a stage that ever remotely comes close to wide spread legality ever.

 

[Raijinken]

I'd call it fine, at the very least in Doubles, but I'm a crazy stage liberal anyway.

The hazards I find no issue with, only the size, and that underexperimented with since 4 came out.

 

[Drewthedude64]

While ledge grabbing is no longer an issue, the lava hazards can still kill lighter characters very early. I suppose you could you use that to your advantage however, by knocking your oppenent into the wall with a forward smash, or using the lava as a "trampoline" to project yourself. I still think it's debatable.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The stage is workable and much better than it was on Brawl, but a lot of people not like being told "stop" by hazards.
I'd gladly play anyone there.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Norfair's platform layout is AMAZING and something that this game's counterpick list really needs. I would love to see it legalized.

Don't really have a problem with the hazards of this stage but I wish we could use the 5+ player version because it's layout is much more valuable and that would be more likely to get legalized

 

[Drewthedude64]

Norfair's platform layout is AMAZING and something that this game's counterpick list really needs. I would love to see it legalized.

Don't really have a problem with the hazards of this stage but I wish we could use the 5+ player version because it's layout is much more valuable and that would be more likely to get legalized

Technichally you could play it by just going into 8 player mode, I believe, even if you only have 4 or less players. Do stages enlarge themselves for 8-player Smash?

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Technichally you could play it by just going into 8 player mode, I believe, even if you only have 4 or less players. Do stages enlarge themselves for 8-player Smash?

You cannot. If you have four or less players, the hazards are still active. If you have five or more, they are disabled.

 

[Pazx]

Norfair's platform layout is AMAZING and something that this game's counterpick list really needs. I would love to see it legalized.

Don't really have a problem with the hazards of this stage but I wish we could use the 5+ player version because it's layout is much more valuable and that would be more likely to get legalized

To be perfectly honest the 5+ player version is probably worse than the regular version for 1v1s because the hazards forcing opponents to approach each other is a pretty good mechanic for such a large stage. If you're actually playing with a bunch of people though, hazards off is definitely the way to go.

 

[Frizz]

To be fair, not every battlefield in a war will be equal to all sides in the real world.
But look at me: comparing real life to Smash? What am I, crazy?
Granted, I could see the stage benefiting towards more agile or mobile characters since they can maneuver throughout the field a bit more, but that's just about it. For example, Sonic could run to either side of the stage and gimp the opponent into being scalded by the lava. This also applies to that moment where a humongous lava wave arises from the background, whereas players are forced to reach the safe zone. Here, Sonic could use any non-risky move to keep his enemies out.
Or something like that. I don't have much knowledge competitive-wise.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

To be fair, not every battlefield in a war will be equal to all sides in the real world.
But look at me: comparing real life to Smash? What am I, crazy?
Granted, I could see the stage benefiting towards more agile or mobile characters since they can maneuver throughout the field a bit more, but that's just about it. For example, Sonic could run to either side of the stage and gimp the opponent into being scalded by the lava. This also applies to that moment where a humongous lava wave arises from the background, whereas players are forced to reach the safe zone. Here, Sonic could use any non-risky move to keep his enemies out.
Or something like that. I don't have much knowledge competitive-wise.

If it's anything like Brawl, Norfair is a HORRIBLE stage for Sonic because he does best with large area to run around and play his tricks, and Norfair doesn't give him that. Can't say I know the matchup as well in this game.

Also, it's generally not a good idea to use the "safe zone". You can easily airdodge/spotdodge/getup roll/shield the lava wave, and if you use the house, you're trapped in it and at the mercy of your opponent for a few seconds.

 

[Rinku リンク]

I would be okay with it being a counter pick again but personally I hate Norfair. The stage itself just has way too much influence on the match making it less entertaining to watch.

It becomes a game of "the floor is lava" and both players end up dancing with the hazards rather than actually fighting each other.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

As a Rosalina main, I actually like Norfair. I use the "don't be bad" strategy to protect both of my characters from getting hit by lava as much as possible (the background wave is the only one likely to hit Luma any more than Rosalina; who sits there and shields Norfair hazards?). On the other hand, man, my double characters dominate that platform layout. I loved this stage in Brawl as G&W, but as Rosalina in 4, I think it's even better for me. It also wasn't a time-out stage in Brawl at all, but Brawl Norfair and the beautiful intricacies of its meta are a whole other topic (it was by far my favorite stage in Brawl; it was so sad how few people really understood how to play on it).

And yes, Norfair is just about the worst Sonic stage ever. It's mostly good for physical spatial control characters and aerial mobility characters. Grounded mobility characters and projectile spatial control characters tend to really struggle here. I think Norfair is more polarizing in 4 than it was within Brawl due to the engine differences and the presence of a few particular extreme characters (I don't really see how Little Mac or Ryu even get to play on this stage, and 4 Sheik would be a real monster here in a way no character in Brawl could really exploit it). Norfair is fair in the sense most stages are ultimately fair if played between two competent players who are fully aware of all stage mechanics (skill alone dictates how players deal with every feature of Norfair), but having it legal is ultimately not going to be a positive for the game's balance this time around. As a pretty stage liberal guy, Norfair would probably not be in the first 20 stages I would have be legal.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I think the hazard free version is definitely a way worse stage. Norfair doesn't promote time-out or stall by default, but with no hazards, it sure does. The hazards, while not real threats to competent players, do force people together. Without them, a lot of MUs end in "get a lead, find a place to camp".

 

[Wintermelon43]

Please don't let this legal.

If it becomes legal, it will be like Hyrule Castle in Smash 64

 

[epicnights]

Please don't let this legal.

If it becomes legal, it will be like Hyrule Castle in Smash 64

Mind explaining why? You're the first person to actually say that they blatantly did not believe this stage should be legal at all, and I'm much more interested in the opinions of those that oppose the idea rather than those that support the idea, for fear of this thread becoming an echo chamber.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Mind explaining why? You're the first person to actually say that they blatantly did not believe this stage should be legal at all, and I'm much more interested in the opinions of those that oppose the idea rather than those that support the idea, for fear of this thread becoming an echo chamber.

Lava hazards.

Lava wave changes the stage (Actual wave is ok), Lava.... bursts??? whatever it is, it automatictially kos pretty much, other lava effects makes killing harder due to some blastlines being unusable at times, and just makes it hard to due stuff with them lessening available stage.

 

[WritersBlah]

Norfair's a really tricky case. Even being a stage liberal, both the hazard and non-hazard versions have issues. Hazard version has lava showers that randomly rack on damage and are hard to see coming, and the wave punishes a little bit too heavily for a hazard should a player fail to shield or stay in the safe zone. Unlike the laser or claw on Halberd, it's pretty much an instant kill at any percent, should something go wrong. The hazardless version suffers from camping issues and it's too easy to play for a time-out, basically the same issues with KJ64. If someone wanted to play there, I'd gentleman to it, but I think it's a little too out there for any realistic stage list. There are many other stages which are much more deserving of legalization consideration than Norfair, imo.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

What? The Lava Wave is not at all an instant kill. It doesn't kill until above 100% on the main platform.

Neither are the lava bursts.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The lava wave is significantly more deadly to floaty characters. Samus died to it 50% earlier than Mario in my testing, 75% vs. 125%.