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Is link vs marth that bad?

who wins the matchup and by how much

  • 50/50

    Votes: 5 14.7%
  • 60/40 marth

    Votes: 13 38.2%
  • 70/30 marth

    Votes: 12 35.3%
  • 60/40 link

    Votes: 2 5.9%
  • 70/30 link (lol no way its that bad for marth)

    Votes: 2 5.9%

  • Total voters
    34

Brave

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
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Location
coral springs, florida
Hi link mains! I'm a marth player from florida and i find link to be a very interesting character. Anyhow i have a friend that is very new to competitive smash and is determined to stick to link in spite of how bad he is. however my question is about links matchups. obviously link has bad matchups vs fox, falco, sheik, puff and many many others. my question is is link vs marth that bad? it feels like he defiantly has potential in that matchup and by no means does it seam impossible. so what do you think the matchup is % wise and why. also if there is some advice you can give to the link player for dealing with marth i will relay it to him. i also want to pick up link as a secondary after finding all the cool stuff you guys have :D thanks for the help
 

DJ _ICE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
179
Link can try to zone out Marth with smart boomerang and bomb usage, but once Marth gets in tipper range or gets a grab, its hell for Link. Link's best way of escaping combos is his fast nair, and Marth can easily out space that with his faster, longer sword. They both can juggle each other with upairs, but Marth can create this situation easier and does it a bit better. Once Marth gets in range, if he spaces and reacts well, its very difficult. Also a silly thing is that Marth tipper dair outranges a recovering Link's Up-b. I don't think this is unwinnable, but there are some ridiculously hard situations for Link to deal with.

Here is The Germ vs Tai, wonderful set to watch and learn from, though I feel if Tai knew the matchup, he would have won.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToeI7lbdd1I

Good on your friend with sticking with Link, there are very helpful and dedicated souls in the Link boards that wish to do well with him and will gladly help out.
 
Joined
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Marth is the only character that can edgeguard Link effectively and he is quicker, but Link can grab everything Marth does, Crouch Cancel, combo, outrange and edgeguard him.

Link is not afraid of Marth.
 
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tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,349
No, he can't grab the dtilt. The dtilt comes out way faster than the grab, and if the link tries to grab after shielding the dtilt, even if he is close enough to marth, marth will already be aerial when the hook grab box comes out and won't get grabbed.

Lightshielding doesn't help because it adds a ton of shieldstun, and marth can just chase link and continue pressure, or might even be able to grab him. There's no way a cc dsmash would hit a well spaced fair.
 
Joined
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...even if he is close enough to marth, marth will already be aerial when the hook grab box comes out and won't get grabbed.
Clearly not played the matchup. Only thing Link can't shield grab from marth is a tipper fsmash.

Lightshielding doesn't help because it adds a ton of shieldstun, and marth can just chase link and continue pressure, or might even be able to grab him.
I think you are forgetting that lightshielding can be done in a million ways, I don't need to make full lightshield, actually that's stupid. For Link lightshielding is important cause his alternatives OoS have good range but some startup. Making the opponent guess the spacing of the next attack makes it possible to get out of more situations.

There's no way a cc dsmash would hit a well spaced fair.
I imagine it's hard to believe Link actually outranges Marth's moves in some ways, but he actually does, there is actually no way marth can land a offensive fair on Link without Link being able to counter attack with a CC dsmash. Retreating fairs works though if millimeter spaced, cause of the property of how movement extends hitboxes.
 

LunchPolice

Smash Apprentice
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Jan 22, 2013
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LunchPolice
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Subscribing to this thread. I'm a new Link player too and this matchup gave me hell at my first tournament. CC dsmash, huh...?
 

DavemanCozy

Smash Photographer
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CavemanCossy
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I believe the matchup is Marth 70:30 Link. I don't think it's as bad as Shiek, Falco, etc (those matchups are easily like 90:10 or 80:20 at least), but Marth is still pretty difficult to deal with so long as the Marth player knows what's up.

Link's main problem, as many have pointed out, is that he gets outranged by Marth in most moves and he's also slower in nearly every aspect. Basically, what Link aims to do is set up his Boomerang and Bombs to force Marth in an uncomfortable [sexual] position.

Good: Projectiles, Stage Control

For projectiles, they're Link's best tools: the Boomerang and Bombs are both very useful for stopping Marth's approach and keeping space. Mix up your bombs with your boomerang angles to restrict the space that Marth can approach you. Although Marth can deflect Link's boomerang and cut through bombs safely, he's still forced to make a move to cover himself from the projectile or get out of the way into a different position.

In other words, keep in mind that when you're zoning Marth, you should always throw your boomerang in angles that restrict Marth's approach options and punish the options he makes. Also remember that the boomerang comes back to you, so Marth has to shield, jump out of the way, dodge, etc. to avoid it. If the Marth player chooses to ignore the retreating 'rang, Marth will get spanked in the bum-bum by the returning boomerang, and he'll turn around [to see who touched him in an inappropriate manner].

Bad: Speed, Edge-guarded, Close Range

Always, always avoid situations where you're directly above Marth: this is not just Link advice, but advice in general when fighting against Marth. Link does have his bombs to control space when he's falling back down to the stage, but otherwise you should always avoid being on top of a platform where Marth is below. On the other hand, Marth doesn't like being above Link either, so keeping him afloat let's Link prepare Bombs, adjust your position, go at him with Up-airs, etc.

This matchup gets much more tricky when Marth gets close to you and when Link is off-stage, as he can really hammer the pressure on Link and edge-guard him really well. Most of your usual Out-of-Shield options (N-air, Up-B, etc) can be spaced properly by the Marth player and punish you for trying them. However, Link can still throw a Bomb OoS (if you have a bomb already) or Shield-grab most of Marth's moves (see Lootic's post). At low percentages, you can CC most of Marth's moves if he's trying to approach. I could go on and on about this, but there's already a lot of information in previous posts.

Counterpicking

It's tricky to give advice on counterpicking stages against Marth: much like how Marth's sword can hit through platforms with Up-tilt, Link can do the same thing to Marth on Yoshi's and Fountain, but Link covers less space. Also, since these are small stages, Link has a harder time keeping space between him and Marth. Personally, I like Pokémon Stadium, Dreamland and Fountain of Dreams vs Marth, but many Link players have different preferences: your friend will find out through more play which stages he likes vs Marth.

As for Jiggs, I actually think that's a better matchup for Link, I'd say that it's Jiggs 60:40 Link.

EDIT: I'm not a Link main, but he started as my secondary, and is currently the only other character besides Peach that I know how to play as. I originally picked up Link to play seriously in tournament sets vs. Jigglypuff and Samus. However, I have also used him seriously in tournament sets vs. Marth, C. Falcon, and Fox mains to see what happens, and I've actually won tournament sets with him. At GOML, I won vs. a Marth main after he defeated my Peach, and at a Kitchener local (Let's Play), I won a pools match vs. a Jigglypuff main who switched to Fox in the second game (I still won with Link). These results have satisfied me enough to keep using Link not just as a counterpick, but as a co-main with Peach.
 
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Joined
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I like to take marth to DL64 and PS for obvious reasons that should not be spoken of lighthearted cause of its ugly nature.

I camp like a mofo.
 

SAUS

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
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Ottawa
I think the biggest thing of note about that gif is that it implies that link stands there and lets marth get the first late fair tipper. The game is not simple enough to say that you can just do one thing and win - especially with something like shield pressure. How do you get a good Link to shield like that? He could just dash away. Sure, it may happen at some points in matches, but you can't force a situation like that.

Link can abuse the power of crouch cancel grab/down-smash and his ability to make his opponent jump with projectiles and raw grabs (if they are refusing to jump, raw grab out-ranges and beats all of marth's moves). It's not an easy matchup for Link, but it's totally doable.
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,349
No the tipper doesn't even have to be that late. The fa dtilt has against links only move that would hit marth, the grab is 6 frames, and I think it's also easier for the marth to be closer to frame perfect in the situation. Also remember that a single shielded dtilt leads to that string, so marth has a monstrous advantage on the ground.

Regarding bombs, I think marth should be able to bait / deny link pulling many bombs via his movement. If the marth fails at that, then the mu is ofc doable.
 

SAUS

Smash Ace
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No the tipper doesn't even have to be that late. The fa dtilt has against links only move that would hit marth, the grab is 6 frames, and I think it's also easier for the marth to be closer to frame perfect in the situation. Also remember that a single shielded dtilt leads to that string, so marth has a monstrous advantage on the ground.

Regarding bombs, I think marth should be able to bait / deny link pulling many bombs via his movement. If the marth fails at that, then the mu is ofc doable.
A tipper d-tilt on shield leads to that, yes, but that requires the Link to shield while your are in d-tilt tipper range (and capable of doing a d-tilt, ie not dashing or shielding).

Don't forget boomerangs that require less setup. They also cover Link so he can retreat to a platform and pull a bomb. On the triple platform stages, Link can retreat to the top platform if Marth runs underneath and he can punish marth if he tries to jump from the side.

This game is not simple enough to look at 2-3 things and conclude that one character beats the other.
 

DavemanCozy

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It's important to keep in mind Lootic's comment too:
Lightshielding can be done in a million ways, I don't need to make full lightshield, actually that's stupid. For Link lightshielding is important cause his alternatives OoS have good range but some startup. Making the opponent guess the spacing of the next attack makes it possible to get out of more situations.
I'm not implying that this matchup is easy for Link: even through changing up how far you slide off your lightshield or CC -> D-smash, the Marth player can still predict where you'll be or just act on instinct and follow up with the D-tilt / F-air. In theory, yes, it's impossible for Link to get out of this pressure that Marth puts, but only in theory. Like Saus said, the game isn't so simple, the Marth player still has to ask questions like:
  • Is there a boomerang coming back that I need to watch out for?
  • Does Link have a bomb that could explode on my face?
  • Will he choose to lightshield and slide farther to mess up my spacing?
  • Does Link have enough room to roll safely? (the above gif shows Link cornered beneath the platform towards the ledge, so Marth has to get him there first)
All these and more are factors that come into play. The reason why this matchup is so bad for Link is because Marth has a much easier time controlling Link's position and forcing him to uncomfortable spots. This doesn't mean Link can't do the same to Marth with his projectiles, but it's definetely a lot harder for Link to do this and a lot easier for Marth to move around Link. It all comes down to speed: Marth is faster, therefore he has more movement options. The Link player needs to rely on mastery of projectiles and reading Marth's approaches.

EDIT:
My two cents? The matchup is Marth 70:30 Link, I can see it being Marth 65:35 Link at best. However, there are 50:50 situations that Link can force with his projectiles, but your reading game (yomi) must be really godlike to get past Marth's superior movement and range.
 
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JesteRace

Smash Journeyman
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I honestly think it's even or 55:45 at absolute worst. But that's just based on my experience, which, admittedly, doesn't speak for a whole lot.

Out of the "Top 8" of Melee, from hardest to easiest, I'd say Shiek/Falcon/Fox/Falco/IC's/Jiggs/Peach/Marth
 

DavemanCozy

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I honestly think it's even or 55:45 at absolute worst. But that's just based on my experience, which, admittedly, doesn't speak for a whole lot.

Out of the "Top 8" of Melee, from hardest to easiest, I'd say Shiek/Falcon/Fox/Falco/IC's/Jiggs/Peach/Marth
I personally think that from hardest to easiest, it's:
  1. Falco 90:10
  2. Sheik 90:10
  3. Fox 85:15
  4. C. Falcon 80:20
  5. Marth 70:30
  6. Jiggs / Peach 60:40
  7. IC's 50:50
 
Joined
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For me it feels more like:

Shiek 90:10(NTSC), 70:30(PAL)
CF 85:15
Fox 65:35
IC's 60:40
Falco 50:50
Marth 45:55
Jiggs 35:65
Peach 30:70

But why actually care? They wont know the matchup so you can pretty much ignore matchup ratios.
 
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SAUS

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
866
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Whoa, calm down there bro.
Falco is not that bad for Link. 50:50 is probably a stretch, but it's far from the most difficult matchup for Link.

I also don't think any of Link's matchups are that bad (like 90:10 is kind of silly to me - if it's that bad, your opponent is probably better than you).
 

JediLink

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
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778
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Falco is not that bad for Link. 50:50 is probably a stretch, but it's far from the most difficult matchup for Link.
...You know what, I take back what I said. I was playing Link against one of my Falco main friends today and I won pretty much every game.

Sniping their recovery with projectiles is so fun
 
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