Is Fox truly one of the most difficult characters? And if so, is his difficulty good for a beginner?

[gapw]

I've only been trying to really learn Melee's basic tech (wave dashing, shuffling, dash dancing, etc) for the past few weeks, and I ended up picking up Fox relatively recently. So far I've been able to start shuffling consistently and making use of it in battle, and am still working on waveshining, utilizing lasers, and wavedashing consistently and usefully.

Although Fox at first seemed to be almost universally considered the most difficult character in Melee, I've been starting to see many people say that Fox is actually incredibly easy and borderline unfair to play as. I was initially drawn towards the character for two reasons- I enjoyed how it felt to play him and believed that learning a difficult character would force me to practice and study the game more. I also figured that getting used to performing basic tech on a trickier character would make other characters feel a bit easier.

But as I said before, I've seen a lot of people since talk about Fox as though he is overpowered and easy to play as. I don't usually use reddit, but this post https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3dzwo9/main_mixup_monday_fox/ where people discussed their experience switching to Fox for a week as well as other posts I've seen discussing Fox are making me reconsider focusing on the character. Many people have said that while playing as Fox your mistakes cannot be punished as easily as with other characters, that he basically plays himself, that he is incredibly low-risk, and is just in general a very simple character to get success with.

Is it true that Fox is a very easy character to learn, and by extension that there are much better characters to learn basic tech on as a beginner? Do you believe that he is one of the most difficult viable characters or one of the least difficult characters? Obviously at certain skill levels in the game any character can be incredibly challenging to master, so I'd prefer you to keep in mind that I'm rather new to the game and am worrying that Fox may teach me bad habits if he is too forgiving of a character.

Sorry if this post is cliche or too long or not the kind of thing somebody should be posting here. As I've emphasized, I'm new to the game and the community.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

1. Fox may be easy at a low level, but at a higher level he is incredibly difficult.
2. Don't listen to reddit, they're a ****ty part of the community, and 90% of them haven't gone to a tournament.
3. You can't say a character is easy, until you can prove that you're proficient at him, people say Fox is easy, well, let me see you pivot waveshine drillshine jab upsmash.
4. Fox can be punished, HARD, too. He flubs on a good Falco? Possibly dead. He flubs on a good Marth? Most likely dead.
5. Overall, I'd say Fox is indeed the hardest character to be proficient as in Melee.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

1. Fox may be easy at a low level, but at a higher level he is incredibly difficult.
2. Don't listen to reddit, they're a ****ty part of the community, and 90% of them haven't gone to a tournament.
3. You can't say a character is easy, until you can prove that you're proficient at him, people say Fox is easy, well, let me see you pivot waveshine drillshine jab upsmash.
4. Fox can be punished, HARD, too. He flubs on a good Falco? Possibly dead. He flubs on a good Marth? Most likely dead.
5. Overall, I'd say Fox is indeed the hardest character to be proficient as in Melee.

Would argue fox is easy at high level and hard at low level. When a fox has control of his movement he has the best movement in the game safe pressure etc. (there is a reason so many top players are fox. At low level it is a lot harder to not get cc dsmashed by peach or randomly rested by puff or wobbled by ics and cause of a spacing being subpar marth and sheik get freebies for having huge hitboxes (that generally don't get cced at low level) Falco has lasers which at a low level are something people just can't deal with.

Low level is cheesy and fox has an execution barrier to avoid him from cheesing other characters as hard as they cheese him. Heck getting better with fox is pretty easy too. Just grind out tech skill. Fox gets the furthest with tech skill. (Of course you will like with all characters need more than just pure tech skill but still)

At high level fox is easy cause whilst he doesn't win against all characters on all stages. He doesn't have overall bad matchups. You don't have to learn how to fight a terrible matchup (or even worse debate on a secondary character for said matchup which means you have to split your time in 2 characters)

Also on the fox isn't easy cause pivot waveshine drillshine jab upsmash is hard is like saying falcon is hard cause of moonwalk into reverse soft knee into up air wall jump falcon punch is hard. It undoubtably is. But you don't need it to win.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Would argue fox is easy at high level and hard at low level. When a fox has control of his movement he has the best movement in the game safe pressure etc. (there is a reason so many top players are fox. At low level it is a lot harder to not get cc dsmashed by peach or randomly rested by puff or wobbled by ics and cause of a spacing being subpar marth and sheik get freebies for having huge hitboxes (that generally don't get cced at low level) Falco has lasers which at a low level are something people just can't deal with.

Low level is cheesy and fox has an execution barrier to avoid him from cheesing other characters as hard as they cheese him. Heck getting better with fox is pretty easy too. Just grind out tech skill. Fox gets the furthest with tech skill. (Of course you will like with all characters need more than just pure tech skill but still)

At high level fox is easy cause whilst he doesn't win against all characters on all stages. He doesn't have overall bad matchups. You don't have to learn how to fight a terrible matchup (or even worse debate on a secondary character for said matchup which means you have to split your time in 2 characters)

Also on the fox isn't easy cause pivot waveshine drillshine jab upsmash is hard is like saying falcon is hard cause of moonwalk into reverse soft knee into up air wall jump falcon punch is hard. It undoubtably is. But you don't need it to win.

First of all, who do you main? What do you consider low level and high level? When I say high level I mean top 50-ish. Anything below that is low level. You could argue that all characters are hard at that level, which is true, but Fox is undoubtedly the hardest.

Once you have experience with all of the, "cc dsmashed by peach or randomly rested by puff or wobbled by ics and cause of a spacing being subpar marth and sheik get freebies for having huge hitboxes," you will know how to get around it, it's not that hard.

"You don't have to learn how to fight a terrible matchup" Maybe not terrible, but definitely not good. (Falco, Marth, etc.)

"debate on a secondary character" Many Fox mains have secondaries.

"Also on the fox isn't easy cause pivot waveshine drillshine jab upsmash is hard is like saying falcon is hard cause of moonwalk into reverse soft knee into up air wall jump falcon punch is hard. It undoubtably is. But you don't need it to win." It was an example, you obviously don't need it to win, and I obviously wasn't being serious.

Overall, Fox's tech skill alone is easily the hardest in the game.

 

[Chainz]

If you wanna truly be efficient with Fox, just keep practicing landing techs and keeping good spacing/ground. It can be a pain in the ass at first, so dont get discouraged.

Also, don't worry about doing fancy ****. Fancy moves good for show, but it's your neutral game you want to improve, that gonna win you sets.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

First of all, who do you main? What do you consider low level and high level? When I say high level I mean top 50-ish. Anything below that is low level. You could argue that all characters are hard at that level, which is true, but Fox is undoubtedly the hardest.

Once you have experience with all of the, "cc dsmashed by peach or randomly rested by puff or wobbled by ics and cause of a spacing being subpar marth and sheik get freebies for having huge hitboxes," you will know how to get around it, it's not that hard.

"You don't have to learn how to fight a terrible matchup" Maybe not terrible, but definitely not good. (Falco, Marth, etc.)

"debate on a secondary character" Many Fox mains have secondaries.

"Also on the fox isn't easy cause pivot waveshine drillshine jab upsmash is hard is like saying falcon is hard cause of moonwalk into reverse soft knee into up air wall jump falcon punch is hard. It undoubtably is. But you don't need it to win." It was an example, you obviously don't need it to win, and I obviously wasn't being serious.

Overall, Fox's tech skill alone is easily the hardest in the game.

I can agree with you that fox's techskill is prolly the hardest in the game. However when you get past a certain level (a level far far far before you even reach top 50) it is expected of any player that they mastered their character to a point that they at least can do what they want to do. (and unless you have hax standards this is a perfectly reasonable goal) Of course you can always be more technical with fox but just his kit being as good as it is makes him not the hardest character on a higher level.

And fox vs falco is mostly even. Fox marth is very slightly fox favored with dreamland and fd being the stages where it stops being near even.
In comparison there are characters like peach who have to deal with jigglypuff. (or fox) Which is a lot worse than mostly even to maybe even slightly in her favor. (there is a reason armada made this switch despite fox obviously being so much harder, it was cause fox allowed him to win more in matchups he didn't like)

I like fox I even main him (also I main fox I think you asked somewhere) But I'm not delusional enough to think that I am or will be at some weird disadvantage when playing against other players who have to deal with less mobility, worse oos, higher sensitivity to cc etc. Fox getting hit slightly harder doesn't make up for the merits he gets.

 

[NoodIes]

Fox is a high risk, high reward character. If you put in the time and the struggle to learn him, the results will surely show. You don't want this to be easy for you because the reward wouldn't be nearly as sweet. We all love our professional low/mid tier mains like AXE and aMSa, but if they put as much time and focus into the most difficult character in the game, Fox, as much as they did Pikachu and Yoshi, they'd probably be super unstoppable. It's all about inputting the work to be good with Fox, to get the outcome you want to have. I hope this made sense. It's really fun playing Fox. It's just also really hard and he takes a lot of time. Totally worth.

 

[zero sum]

i think fox and falco have a higher tech floor than most characters but people greatly overestimate how hard it is to be competent with them. fox and falco have amazing and fairly easy or intuitive neutral games and so they're way easier to play than a lot of other characters once you've proven that you can reach that arbitrary tech skill floor. fox's is better, but falco's is generally easier.

as a note i think it's really interesting how quite a few of the premier fox players weren't originally fox mains. in fact, most of them didn't even main a space animal: mango was a puff main, armada was a peach main (though his first main was apparently marth?), and hax played captain falcon. leffen played falco, i think, but was known to have a really good yoshi. sort of weird when you think about it: the best fox players aren't really the ones who started with him at the beginning.

 

[pagedMov]

reddit

LMFAO

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

Easiest to get results with? Fox.
Hardest tech skill? Well, tech skill is a subjective term.

 

[The24thGanondorf]

1. Fox may be easy at a low level, but at a higher level he is incredibly difficult.
2. Don't listen to reddit, they're a ****ty part of the community, and 90% of them haven't gone to a tournament.
3. You can't say a character is easy, until you can prove that you're proficient at him, people say Fox is easy, well, let me see you pivot waveshine drillshine jab upsmash.
4. Fox can be punished, HARD, too. He flubs on a good Falco? Possibly dead. He flubs on a good Marth? Most likely dead.
5. Overall, I'd say Fox is indeed the hardest character to be proficient as in Melee.

I agree.

 

[NightRaid|tAmA?]

I can agree with you that fox's techskill is prolly the hardest in the game. However when you get past a certain level (a level far far far before you even reach top 50) it is expected of any player that they mastered their character to a point that they at least can do what they want to do. (and unless you have hax standards this is a perfectly reasonable goal) Of course you can always be more technical with fox but just his kit being as good as it is makes him not the hardest character on a higher level.

And fox vs falco is mostly even. Fox marth is very slightly fox favored with dreamland and fd being the stages where it stops being near even.
In comparison there are characters like peach who have to deal with jigglypuff. (or fox) Which is a lot worse than mostly even to maybe even slightly in her favor. (there is a reason armada made this switch despite fox obviously being so much harder, it was cause fox allowed him to win more in matchups he didn't like)

I like fox I even main him (also I main fox I think you asked somewhere) But I'm not delusional enough to think that I am or will be at some weird disadvantage when playing against other players who have to deal with less mobility, worse oos, higher sensitivity to cc etc. Fox getting hit slightly harder doesn't make up for the merits he gets.

I think your missing the one hard truth. at high level of play a fox should be dead after one solid hit confirm just one. Fox can most definitely do the same but the consistency is an issue. you do't see high level fox's just never kill themselves or flub simple tech. Sure other characters can be easy to mess up with too but fox is more prone to flubs in tech-skill. That one mistake is a stock and an easy one to take at that. The meta is super developed and at a high level fox is solidly edgegaurded ( not saying it's a 100% consistency tho ) all the gods demonstrate that too. Fox is the best character but just because he's the best doesn't mean you'll ge a free win

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

I think your missing the one hard truth. at high level of play a fox should be dead after one solid hit confirm just one. Fox can most definitely do the same but the consistency is an issue. you do't see high level fox's just never kill themselves or flub simple tech. Sure other characters can be easy to mess up with too but fox is more prone to flubs in tech-skill. That one mistake is a stock and an easy one to take at that. The meta is super developed and at a high level fox is solidly edgegaurded ( not saying it's a 100% consistency tho ) all the gods demonstrate that too. Fox is the best character but just because he's the best doesn't mean you'll ge a free win

I never said he got a free win, I said he is easiest to win with, competing at high level melee in general is pretty hard.
Fox easily has the most circumventable weaknesses though since just grinding practice will minimize sds. Whereas other characters have to work around terrible matchups and having to deal with having less options. If you lose with fox it's always on you. You airdodged offstage cause your ledgedash wasn't clean enough, you decided to overextend and got hit for it. Whereas if you're a puff and you're playing against a fox, foxes lasers decided you had to overextend.

Also fox doesn't nearly get 0 to deathed as frequent as you make it out to be, especially at high level where sdi is a thing, I'm not gonna deny he gets hit pretty hard but you make it sound like the punish game is disproportionatly favored against him whereas he usually only hits slightly less hard as whatever he's fighting

Just because fox has struggles it doesn't mean other characters don't have more struggles.

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

Some things that make Fox easy:

• Most options
• Very lenient hitboxes
• Can cover tons of options by reaction.
• Can punish any character as hard if not harder than they can punish him.
• No bad MU.
• Can get very far by just spamming options instead of outplaying opponents.

Some hard things:

• Most common MU so everyone knows the MU well.
• 3 frame jump squat can cause hand strain.

 

[Sp1nda]

When I started playing Melee, I didn't even think to pick up Fox due to his difficulty and the number of people who used him. Since I am more of a Marth main, I had an easier time picking up Fox because I already had practice L-Cancelling moves, since Marth has to have some pretty laggy aerials and a laggy moveset overall, and I picked up Falco before Fox, which certainly helped with some of the techskill for Fox.
Fox has some pretty rough techskill, because Waveshines you have to be extremely quick with. Fox is a character to you have to play and be good at reacting quickly, since he falls like a rock, moves fast, and has some amazing moves and combos.
Fox can definitely be hard to learn if you don't have any experience at all, and my Fox is still even sloppy because I mess up my up throw combos, but if you put enough time and practice into it, you can learn Fox fairly well in a short amount of time.
Fox is hard if you have no idea what you're doing, and slow fingers. He's not as hard if you have some practice with his techskill and combos.

 

[ShadowzVoid]

I don't know if anybody above me said this or not, but I recommend starting with Fox. Especially if you enjoy playing as Fox. Fox utilizes a lot of things, and while he may be different from the other characters, you will learn a lot by playing him for a while. Even if you don't plan on playing Fox I'd suggest you try him out and learn things about him. You'll be facing him a lot too so it's good to know stuff.

 

[Dandy_here]

I still can't even doubleshine with fox. I side b trying to waveshine at least twice a day and I still haven't implemented pivot grabs, shine reversals, and ledge dashes. Fox is the hardest character by tech skill alone. But, the other reason is that fox is a very hard character to play consistently on both the mental and physical meta game. Fox is a very hard character to play good as if say you hurt your finger on something and it for some reason makes it hard to press a lot of buttons in such a short piece of time. Or if you're having a bad day. You are twice as likely to mess up compared to a sheik main. If you aren't playing the best you can physically and mentally, you will have a difficult time. You will always flub something. You become more susceptible to sding and dropping edge guards. Fox is one of the hardest characters in fighting games in General. But if you can consistently play well, then the load is a little lighter.

 

[M3ll0w]

He might be easy to learn as in the basics. But using it at an actual tournament and placing high will take time and practice. If you want to see an actually easy character play Falco with the most broken Spike in the game, God like projectiles and his great Bair. He and shiek are truely the characters to start learning the game with if you know literally nothing

 

[Lime Cultivist]

Those were reddit comments...
The only character that I would say is harder to play fluidly is Yoshi.
Fox is not very easy, a Fox that doesn't know what they're doing is one of the easiest things in the game to beat:

Playing matches with my friend, who mains Marth, we were going about even. We're obviously not high level but we're okay. He swiches to Fox - he only occasionally plays Fox. We do the ditto and I 3 stock him, almost jv4. I switch to Kirby and he stays Fox, and we go to Battlefield. It's a close match but I win. With Kirby. He hasn't gone Fox again since.

And say you are fighting Marth with Fox, it teaches you just what you need to know: outspacing and dash dance mixups to get in on a character with huge range, optimal and fast punish game when you do get in, careful recovery, not getting grabbed, DI out of combos, can't miss a tech, it's all there. We had also switched roles sometimes, my friend and I, and even though I don't main Marth I just got 4 stocks most of the time against his Fox. Sorry to my friend, but that's just how it is.

 

[Jim Jam Flim Flam]

A bunch of people have posted a lot of good stuff, but maybe I have something to say that others don't. IMO Ice Climbers - at a high level - are the hardest character to play, followed by Fox. Fox is so difficult because, to perform well with him you need a stupid amount of tech skill. Multishines, shine grabs, shine turnarounds, waveshines, etc. In addition, Fox is easily punishable, especially by certain characters like Marth. He can get chaingrabbed and juggled in the air, and his recovery is linear and easy to predict. To play him well you don't only need that tech skill, you need to play crazy fast and still have the proficient tech skill - without mistakes - to keep up with the speed. Fox at a low to mid level is not quite as difficult because you can make some mistakes and your tech skill doesn't need to be near flawless, but beyond that Fox is punished so hard and it is very difficult to capitalize off of enemies' mistakes because you need to press about 100 buttons exactly in the right time to get to an enemy 3 steps away. The fact that people like Leffen and Mango can win international tournaments with Fox is just insane considering how many buttons you need to press without messing up and while doing precise, quick movements. The way I got in to Fox was playing Pikachu, who has similar requirements for tech skill like the same time frame for short hops, similar speed, and a similar way to play in the neutral. Even being proficient in tech skill with Pikachu, meaning I can SHFFL anything fine, wavedash, ledgedash, waveland, and all that, I had, and still have, trouble playing Fox for a long time. I think it just comes down to, pretty simply, this: you have to press so many buttons quickly and precisely and you can't mess up. And on top of all this, your hands can start to hurt pretty bad after playing a while.