Is Falco better than Fox?

[bboss]

Mew2king certainly thinks so. Your thoughts?

 

[-ACE-]

m2k has historically overrated falco and puff, 2 characters he doesn't play and used to have trouble with.

 

[Sycorax]

The metagame isn't developed anywhere near enough to say for sure who in the top 4 is better than whom. Hell, even top 6 ordering could be up for contention.

 

[-ACE-]

The metagame isn't developed anywhere near enough to say for sure who in the top 4 is better than whom. Hell, even top 6 ordering could be up for contention.

We know enough to safely say fox is better than falco.

 

[Silen]

I firmly believe that falco is the 4th best in the game as of right now. Possibly third if puff was worse, but I don't see that. His match up spread is way worse than fox's. he's got less kill power. gets killed easier, and overall is slower and has a hard time dealing with things fox could blitz through.

But there is a catch, I do think that if falco was optimized ALOT MORE than where he is now that he could be second best, maybe even first. But thats gonna take some time.​

 

[-ACE-]

This is only my opinion, but I'm firmly confident that it's 1. Fox 2. Marth. Sheik, Falco, and Puff are harder to put into order.

 

[bboss]

imo its fox sheik falco marth.

 

[Raycu]

imo its fox sheik falco marth.

Eh, Marth and Falco don't have that hard a time with Shiek :/

 

[bboss]

Eh, Marth and Falco don't have that hard a time with Shiek :/

Marth does.

 

[-ACE-]

Marth does.

Used to. The marth meta has progressed immensely the past 2 years or so in terms of neutral and punish game. A good neutral with great spacing and patience alone makes it hard for sheik to do her ABC punishes. Imo when the matchup is played correctly, marth wins slightly. The problem is, witnessing this style of marth is more rare than seeing top level sheik play (regarding this matchup), as for marth it takes constant focus and good decision making, while sheiks optimal options and decision making is more straightforward.

The sheik vs IC's matchup is a similar scenario imo, yet seeing perfect sheik play vs IC's is arguably more rare. It is an evenish matchup, arguably in sheiks favor at top level yet often appears as if IC's are a soft counter to sheik.

 

[bboss]

Used to. The marth meta has progressed immensely the past 2 years or so in terms of neutral and punish game. A good neutral with great spacing and patience alone makes it hard for sheik to do her ABC punishes. Imo when the matchup is played correctly, marth wins slightly. The problem is, witnessing this style of marth is more rare than seeing top level sheik play (regarding this matchup), as for marth it takes constant focus and good decision making, while sheiks optimal options and decision making is more straightforward.

Ya i think now there are a lot of good sheiks and not a whole lot of good marths.

 

[-ACE-]

Ya i think now there are a lot of good sheiks and not a whole lot of good marths.

PewpewU and the moon are continuing to make heavy strides, but the best example would be PPMD in full practice, or even a spacing heavy marth like Dart! or SmashG0D playing out of their mind.

 

[bboss]

PewpewU and the moon are continuing to make heavy strides, but the best example would be PPMD in full practice, or even a spacing heavy marth like Dart! or SmashG0D playing out of their mind.

Who knows how soon PP will be back... i predict he'll be back mid november 2017. As for Dart! and SmashG0D I don't think they are that great. That is compared to top sheiks like Faceroll, Plup, M2k, etc. Kevin Toy is really good though. He'll probably be best marth when Jason and PPMD retire though.

 

[-ACE-]

Who knows how soon PP will be back... i predict he'll be back mid november 2017. As for Dart! and SmashG0D I don't think they are that great. That is compared to top sheiks like Faceroll, Plup, M2k, etc. Kevin Toy is really good though. He'll probably be best marth when Jason and PPMD retire though.

I was talking about potential of playing the sheik/marth matchup well, not just listing good marths. I mentioned dart! and SmashG0D because they are spacing heavy. They're pretty good in general too. SmashG0D recently 3-0'd Colbol and dart! went 2-2 with wizzy last year. And that's just the tip of the iceberg for both of them.

 

[Raycu]

Marth does.

It depends on the Marth really. Seeing as a lot of playing against Shiek as a Marth is working on out maneuvering her, and Marth has the arguable the best movement, at higher play (Which I think is most important for a tier list imo) she becomes a lot harder to use.

Edit: Basically all of what -ACE- has said. Too few good Marths though :<

 

[bboss]

I was talking about potential of playing the sheik/marth matchup well, not just listing good marths. I mentioned dart! and SmashG0D because they are spacing heavy. They're pretty good in general too. SmashG0D recently 3-0'd Colbol and dart! went 2-2 with wizzy last year. And that's just the tip of the iceberg for both of them.

yeah and not to mention SmashG0D beating hbox on netplay andending his streak!

 

[bboss]

It depends on the Marth really. Seeing as a lot of playing against Shiek as a Marth is working on out maneuvering her, and Marth has the arguable the best movement, at higher play (Which I think is most important for a tier list imo) she becomes a lot harder to use.

Edit: Basically all of what -ACE- has said. Too few good Marths though :<

where do you think sheik is then?

 

[Raycu]

where do you think sheik is then?

Probably fourth on the list imo. Then Falco and Marth are a throw up, because they both have great tools that counteract the other's.

 

[-ACE-]

Sheik COULD even be 5th imo, but tbh there's so little difference between the 2nd best character and the 5th best, so the order is almost pointless (although I do believe marth is 2nd). Regarding puff, I'm just not one of those guys that automatically attributes all of puff's success to "hbox is just amazing". My thoughts reside more along the lines of hbox is showing us what the character is capable of. But for now sheik at 4th seems good.

 

[Ravengeance]

Fox is 1 without question. Peach is 6th without question. 2-5 can get muddled. Very few would argue puff/sheik over marth or falco. I think 2nd/3rd you can call a toss up between Marth and Falco and 4th/5th you can call a toss up between Sheik and Puff. I personally believes it is Fox, Marth, Falco, Sheik, Puff, Peach.

M2K has some notoriety about being way off on character tiers. He's made some outlandish claims among Sm4sh characters as well as Melee.

 

[bboss]

Outlandish to us people, but for a guy that has spent that long on the games i think he knows what hes talking about.

 

[Raycu]

I've been wondering more and more if Peach should be placed higher on the tier list with how Armada has done recently.

 

[RC!]

Mew2king certainly thinks so. Your thoughts?

I think Fox has too good of a punish game because even if you DI really well he can still follow up on you with his speed where as if you DI falco's shine in a certain way it's really hard to land follow ups and sometimes they put falco in a worse position than if he didn't hit the character. Fox is also better than Falco off stage as well and not just in recovery but edge guarding and actually playing from there. Falco's options are pretty limited compared to fox's at the ledge and he has a hard time getting edge guards from a safe position (One of the most guaranteed ways to get an edge guard as falco is to shine stall turn around and then dair which can be hit and exploited in many ways and leave falco dead because of his bad recovery). But it does honestly come down to the player in most cases so if this post is you secretly asking if you should main fox or falco just play whatever character feels better and i'm sure you'll get the same results/growth either way because of how open and expressive melee is.

 

[bboss]

if this post is you secretly asking if you should main fox or falco just play whatever character feels better and i'm sure you'll get the same results/growth either way because of how open and expressive melee is.

Its not hahaha but i just wanted to hear other opinons on teh topic.