Is Bowser Jr. an Anti-Little Mac?

[Robotic Operating Buddy]

I was getting my butt handed to me by a Little Mac player online with all my favorite characters. I decided to try Bowser Jr. and suddenly had more success against him and other Mac players.
I think his advantages lie in the special attacks. Jr's projectile and aerial game are very strong against Mac. Often times I use the up or down specials to launch Mac in the air, then I hit him with the hammer attack or uptilt.
Also I believe Jr's sensitive head is much safer when fighting Mac, mostly due to Mac's terrible aerial game.
Does anyone else agree, what are your thoughts?

 

[IsmaR]

Hardly. Any character that's heavy/has a larger than normal (which is basically more than half the roster in comparison to Mac himself) will get string'd to high hell and back, at least when fighting a competent player who knows more than just Jolt Haymaker/Dash Attack. The head/clown car thing won't matter much when a single hit with slightly higher percent from anybody else doesn't amount to 3-4 "weaker' hits from Mac.

Furthermore Jr.'s projectiles both (all if you count his Up B) have their risks. Cannonball takes forever to charge/has a ton of endlag, and by the time you do charge it up, Mac could have run across the entire stage to get to you, or just jump/Jolt Haymaker/Slip Counter/shield/roll/spot dodge/walk away.

Mechakoopas are useful until the Mac players realize they could just grab it, particularly with a Dash attack. They are at risk if they decide to jump/shield, but that's a given with pretty much any move/special.

Abandon Ship is the biggest gamble in the match-up, pretty much. Either you hit him/hope he goes far enough to give you time to recover, or you slowly sink to the impending (and probably charged) Smash attack, or heavens help you, a fully charged neutral B or K.O. punch.

Jr.'s best off keeping Mac on his toes with a combination of tilts/manually grabbing and tossing Mechakoopas and abusing his grab game (shieldgrabs are Mac's worst nightmare). I would not recommend using Jr.'s dash attack or the Clown Kart Dash for the sole fact that Mac's superarmor and Slip Counter will eat that **** up.

I said all of this as an avid player of both, for the record. I think Jr.'s stage control/air follow-ups does put him at slightly more of an advantage than most, but not to the point where he's an "Anti-Mac" (which pretty much anyone that can abuse gravity and shield pressure is/can be, but I digress).

 

[Cherubas]

I wouldn't call him a counter per se, you're still going to need some awareness, but I will say that as someone who mains Bj I find Little Mac to be one of the easier matchups. You can typically wait by the edge and use mecha koopas and cannonballs to convince Mac to leave the safety of the middle of the stage and come after you, provided you know when to stop. Obviously you shouldn't be cannonballing on a Mac who's just outside F-smash range. Once he gets close enough you can usually shield grab and throw him off the edge. Then all you have to do is stay horizontally lined up with him while he tries to recover and do a F-air. 90% of the time they'll try to side B pretty quickly, making their recovery route predictable. Even if they do try to come in low and up B the same edge guarding will work. The only thing you have to watch out for would be a counter, but those aren't very common and even when it happens you can try again. I doubt a player would keep countering in that situation, cause if he does then he becomes predictable and you can just bait out the counter and F-air late or hop up there and up B beside him. Once Mac is off the stage he's pretty easy to deal with and Bj's range on his B-air and F-air let him win that exchange.

You just have to play smart during the battle over the stage. Wait for chances to counterattack, and if you're facing one of those Macs who charges your landing spot every single time you're in the air then start throwing out some up Bs for him to walk into. And respect the KO punch.

 

[Robotic Operating Buddy]

Hardly. Any character that's heavy/has a larger than normal (which is basically more than half the roster in comparison to Mac himself) will get string'd to high hell and back, at least when fighting a competent player who knows more than just Jolt Haymaker/Dash Attack. The head/clown car thing won't matter much when a single hit with slightly higher percent from anybody else doesn't amount to 3-4 "weaker' hits from Mac.

Furthermore Jr.'s projectiles both (all if you count his Up B) have their risks. Cannonball takes forever to charge/has a ton of endlag, and by the time you do charge it up, Mac could have run across the entire stage to get to you, or just jump/Jolt Haymaker/Slip Counter/shield/roll/spot dodge/walk away.

Mechakoopas are useful until the Mac players realize they could just grab it, particularly with a Dash attack. They are at risk if they decide to jump/shield, but that's a given with pretty much any move/special.

Abandon Ship is the biggest gamble in the match-up, pretty much. Either you hit him/hope he goes far enough to give you time to recover, or you slowly sink to the impending (and probably charged) Smash attack, or heavens help you, a fully charged neutral B or K.O. punch.

Jr.'s best off keeping Mac on his toes with a combination of tilts/manually grabbing and tossing Mechakoopas and abusing his grab game (shieldgrabs are Mac's worst nightmare). I would not recommend using Jr.'s dash attack or the Clown Kart Dash for the sole fact that Mac's superarmor and Slip Counter will eat that **** up.

I said all of this as an avid player of both, for the record. I think Jr.'s stage control/air follow-ups does put him at slightly more of an advantage than most, but not to the point where he's an "Anti-Mac" (which pretty much anyone that can abuse gravity and shield pressure is/can be, but I digress).

Hmm I agree, I guess I was embellishing when I said "Anti Mac" its really too soon to tell.

But my strategy was similar to what you described, stay away from Mac, keep him on his toes and guessing.
I found the Mecha koopas useful when they turned around on the stage edge and sneak up behind Mac. Most of my Macs didn't grab the koopa unless it was close range (which I rarely did due to this) by the time the koopa walks out a distance, it blows up in Mac's face before they can grab (usually)
I usually used the cannon to prevent Mac from recovering horizontally, a good hit and he can't get back on the stage with his crummy recover.
With Bowser Jr I like the risk/reward strategy of the Abandon Ship. Even if you can't follow up with a hammer swing, it still gets me out of a combo or dangerous situation while dealing damage to Mac. Usually you have enough flexibility to dodge the smash attacks, and I never try it when the KO punch is out. For that I usually bait him into using the punch early.
I use the Kart Dash only when I want to recover and I can't risk the vulnerability of the Abandon ship, though I have been surprised that most Macs don't counter the Kart Dash, not sure why.

 

[VileFC3S]

Hmm I agree, I guess I was embellishing when I said "Anti Mac" its really too soon to tell.
though I have been surprised that most Macs don't counter the Kart Dash, not sure why.

Shhhhhhhhhhh... Lol

How about the players that actually do play smart? You know the ones that are actually turtling very well and using common sense to stay on the stage? I'm having a very tough time going up against these kinds of Lil Macs where I'd end up trying to anticipate their next move and get my ass handed to them. I guess they have the advantages if they know how to stage control?

 

[Robotic Operating Buddy]

Shhhhhhhhhhh... Lol

How about the players that actually do play smart? You know the ones that are actually turtling very well and using common sense to stay on the stage? I'm having a very tough time going up against these kinds of Lil Macs where I'd end up trying to anticipate their next move and get my *** handed to them. I guess they have the advantages if they know how to stage control?

Well that's just against kart dashes. Maybe they just aren't experienced enough with Jr yet. I'm sure that using the kart against him will become less prominent as time goes on. For all I know, I could be playing guys who have never fought/unlocked Jr before. That's why I made this thread, to see maybe if other Jr users were experiencing similar results. (and maybe to find a counter against Mac because god I see him too much in online play)

 

[VileFC3S]

Yeah about the kart, I was just kidding about that.

Thanks Robotic and the last 2 users above for the tip though! I'll keep this in mind and hopefully it sets in. My biggest problem was that I whiff way too much. But like somebody once said in that one Bowser Jr analysis thread, that d-tilt has been my savior though.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Bowser Jr's slow tether grab does a lot to ruin the matchup. Throws are key to nerfing Mac's powers. Abandon Ship works better against Mac than you'd think to give yourself space though as long as you have mastered his aerials to defend yourself - particularly hammer, of course. But a really guarded Mac is still going to be a tough matchup. Roll invincibility + armor = ouchies.

 

[Tuvillo]

Little Mac's Nair gimps are apparently easy to do on Bowser Jr.

 

[Conda]

Bowser Jr's slow tether grab does a lot to ruin the matchup. Throws are key to nerfing Mac's powers. Abandon Ship works better against Mac than you'd think to give yourself space though as long as you have mastered his aerials to defend yourself - particularly hammer, of course. But a really guarded Mac is still going to be a tough matchup. Roll invincibility + armor = ouchies.

His grab isnt really much of a tether. Its quick enough and comparable to a normal grab, and has some extra range, that I think it actually helps bowser jr in this matchup.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

His grab isnt really much of a tether. Its quick enough and comparable to a normal grab, and has some extra range, that I think it actually helps bowser jr in this matchup.

I feel like it is slower and harder to land. It doesn't seem to land close or too far away, you have to get it just right. I will defer to the frame data, it'd be great if I was just bad at grabbing.

 

[Conda]

I feel like it is slower and harder to land. It doesn't seem to land close or too far away, you have to get it just right. I will defer to the frame data, it'd be great if I was just bad at grabbing.

I think that's because it's not a tether, it's just a grab with a robotic arm animation. It may have more range than a normal grab, but it's more appearance than anything because of his animations of creating appendages. It's not a tether.

Seeing it as a normal grab makes you not expect it to have great range, which makes it less disappointing. It also doesn't have much end lag - doesn't seem much more than some characters' normal grabs (different for each character).

 

[ndayday]

With just some light skimming of this thread I want to add in theory jr. is definitely a character well suited for vs. mac. I'm not sure how his dtilt fares against mac's moves, but that is one high priority move that I can see being very useful. In general, Bowser Jr. really excels at moves that poke people horizontally, aka mac's weakness. in any case it's much better than characters that are more vertical KO inclined.

 

[VileFC3S]

With just some light skimming of this thread I want to add in theory jr. is definitely a character well suited for vs. mac. I'm not sure how his dtilt fares against mac's moves, but that is one high priority move that I can see being very useful. In general, Bowser Jr. really excels at moves that poke people horizontally, aka mac's weakness. in any case it's much better than characters that are more vertical KO inclined.

It's been such a great gimp whenever I have no time for an aerial or projectiles for an incoming Lil Mac when he's recovering. Well lately it has been for me.

 

[Conda]

With just some light skimming of this thread I want to add in theory jr. is definitely a character well suited for vs. mac. I'm not sure how his dtilt fares against mac's moves, but that is one high priority move that I can see being very useful. In general, Bowser Jr. really excels at moves that poke people horizontally, aka mac's weakness. in any case it's much better than characters that are more vertical KO inclined.

Definitely true. Knocking people vertically has the benefit of forcing options in the air, most of which kinda suck in Smash 4 (airdodging to the ground = punishable, doing nothing = punishable, attacking = punishable for normal smash bros reasons). This is GOOD, but I haven't found it to provide a dependable playstyle. Vertical-knockback characters tend to be matchup-sensitive - characters with a good down-b or dair that sends them plummeting downwards with anger tend to nullify their vertical strategies (ie juggling). Vertical-knockback characters also have to change things up depending on your enemy's weight class, which again makes them sensitive to certain matchups. Fox comes to mind - his utilt isn't very reliable on many characters - you're lucky if you can get two off on a character who can get out easily. And this is one of fox's bread and butter moves -- not having it at full effectiveness in certain matchups changes how reliably he can use his tools. Other characters are similar.

And of course - KOing off the top in this game is super tough due to the required % to kill this time around. Also again - weight class dependant.

Thus, horizontal knockback definitely is the preferred type of knockback, especially with the focus on off-stage play in Smash 4.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I do not find that Bowser Jr has good Smash attacks though. They are trrribly laggy. Sometimes I slip into a Smash attack by accident and it takes way too long to get out of it. The aerial hammer is his finest kill move.

 

[Conda]

I do not find that Bowser Jr has good Smash attacks though. They are trrribly laggy. Sometimes I slip into a Smash attack by accident and it takes way too long to get out of it. The aerial hammer is his finest kill move.

On platforms stages this will change - usmash and fsmash angled upwards will be great. Fsmash already is a great edgeguarding tool as well as priority-juggernaut. Treat it like a heavy duty dtilt alternative that can cancel out other stuff and you'll see it's place in Bjr's repertoire. Dsmash is a good punish move as well - I generally don't use any other for the purposes of punishes.

But yeah, they are very situational. Same with his fair and bair - not to be tossed out lightly.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Good little Mac will easily get past mecha Koopa and go aggro the moment they see Bowser jr/Koopalings. They know of they give my Wendy space that they'll get wrecked. I space with low f-airs and d-air if possible. I use mecha Koopa but I also use the side b behind the Koopa. If he's gonna dash I simply cancel the side b and jump out and then d-air the little Mac if he falls for the bait. It usually works well. Just mix up your bowser jr shenanigans and you should be fine.

People saying bowser jr is a hard counter to little Mac are being delusional. Ya maybe to crappy little macs but a good one is annoying to play against as Wendy.